Well, I am new to alanon; however this all seems like a suitable stance. That is if I understand the program correctly it should make EVERYONE feel welcomed and comfortable. The only way to do that is to yes, keep it generic in terms of religion/religious beliefs. Anything else would cause too much strife, and be damaging to the program itself.

This is just my 2 cents

thank U JOHN...........i am with lilms on this one............if someone is  positive and loving and healing and defends the dignity of ALL living creatores, i don't care WHO / WHAT the worship........

i was getting a bit nervous,  last night  , seeing all the  religion stuff........tradition TWO is there for a REASON.......this board should NOT be exclusionary ....i want to RECOVER.....whatever HP i embrace is  for ME and MY recovery....

thanks John and monitors for  keeping all this  safe for all of us............rosie

Thank you for keeping it Al-Anon, as it should be John. 

Luv, Kis

Removed by MIP Admin.

"This issue is not up for debate, or negotiation"  (Therefore it is a non issue.)

We Speak Al-Anon Here.

-- Edited by John at 14:27, 2006-06-15

((((((((((((((((((((John))))))))))))),

Spirituality certainly has its place here.  But the spiritaulity is different to each person.  My HP is different from yours and anyone else's here.  It is the joy of learning from each other and learning tolerance for each other's points of view that can be so empowering for us, and enable us to grow. 

You absolutely did the right thing. Your hard work and dedication along with the other ops help make our recovery all the easier.   From the bottom of my heart I thank each and every one of you. 

Live strong,

Karilynn

Trust me... when sometimes against the popular opinion I have to do something to bring us back to what this site is about, to protect it, and its members safety, to ensure its longivity and presence in cyberspace, to defuse controversy, division and conflict in its early stages, to stand solidly by our programs steps, traditions and concepts of service...etc... and to also see that my vision, and this sites purpose as its webmaster and founder is not being distorted... etc...

Ol' John might set himself up to get blasted and "John bashing committees" are created to escalate the variables, and it literally breaks my heart when I am put in the position to become the "bad guy" in the view of others...

But today, because of this program, I no longer have to be a people pleaser, approval seeker that changes his colors depending on which environment he enters, or who he is talking to. 

I am who I am.  A human being that is prone to make a few mistakes from time to time.  Who is learning, growing and healing and reaching out  because he too needs support and because he has support to offer.

I like what I heard one speaker share recently....

"I had to learn that there is no wrong way to do what is right and no right way to do what is wrong". 

In the Spirit of Recovery,

John

Thanks John, for keeping the Alanon chat and message board within the parameters of the Alanon philosophy, and especially for the new comers who have not attended a face to face meeting yet, so they do get more of an actual of how Alanon works for families and friends of alcoholics.........gardengal

Aloha John and Mahalo (thanks) for the lesson in courage and commitment.  Character assets to aid recovery. 

To Mel...CAL literature never promotes any religious belief and uses a vast amount of wisdom from many sources to support the atmosphere of recovery from the disease of alcoholism in which we are primary participants.  A very honest question when sharing with any other member is, "What's my motive?"  "Why am I doing what I am doing/saying what I am saying and what do I hope to get out of it."  Many share their religious views for the hope of self verification and while not everyone does this, whenever a religious share is done for the purpose of directing another member toward what I believe, this is not acceptable in the least and at best an attempt to control another. 

I was raised religiously and have had others make major attacks against what and how I believed including family, friends, ex-wives, solicitors, sponsees etc.  What worked for me was the suggestion that I get a power greater than myself for obvious reasons, and being allowed the freedom to discover that relationship between my Higher Power and myself for myself.  Two of the best motivators I have had over my time in recovery was Fr. Martin and John, a Black foot Indian who said the Lord's (His word was Creator) Prayer in a way I had never heard before and that opened my christian mind to the world of the spirit.  

One of my first fears upon entering the Al-Anon Family Groups was that this was another religion.  Had that been true I would have left and stayed away and most likely died by my own hand.  I respect what all others believe.  I also accept that some of these beliefs keep them at length from real mind, body, spiritual and emotional recovery.  They practice believing and stay sick!  In my experience, Higher Power cannot be contained (should not for me) in anyone line of thought or acceptance from anyone source.  Otherwise it would not be Higher Power.

My Higher Power can and does use anything and anyone to help me gain and maintain spiritual serenity and for that I am eternally grateful. 

hi, I agree completly . At one time there was a religious member at a meeting I had attended it made the meeting extremly incomfortable and some people stopped coming. This is a great point, Briana:

The nick "picowitch" isn't in fact promoting a religion, but is in fact advertising the person's individual religion. I believe this steps over the line in cyberspace, because we don't get the choice to look at the persons face, what they are wearing, their smile or frown, we are by no choice of our own put in a position to repeatedly read their "personal advertisement" because all we can see or look at is the nickname they display.

The advertising of one's religious beliefs via their nickname is not allowed. For in doing so they are promoting an outside cause, their own, in that we are subjected to it as a group without any choice as to whether we want to be inflicted with someone else's brand of religion or not.

I am a Christian, a relatively strong one. I am a very proud one. But I wouldn't want a Satanist to be allowed to come into our room and advertise their religion, and thus promote it by my not having any choice regarding my exposure to it in our Al-Anon room, I have to extend the same policy of respect to all people, of all religions. We can't have a one sided policy, "as long as its Christian its okay"

Alcoholism doesn't care what religion someone is or isn't. Nor does Al-Anon. It's an outside issue, and belongs outside our rooms.

We also have someone that occassionally comes into our room with a scriptures Name, Chapter and Verse as their nickname. They are going to be dealt with the same way, for the same reasons. We also have someone that comes in with a nick that points out their alignment with the Wicken religion. They too are going to be dealt with the same way.

Let's say someone came into a f2f meeting with a Christian T-Shirt on, or other religious organizations advertisement. Would we ask them to leave the meeting until they changed their shirt? No, absolutely not. Why? Because we can see so much more of them than that, that it allots us the opportunity to look at them in the face, at their smile or frown, at things around them in the room. We are not stuck, without any choice of our own to read their T-Shirt every time we enter the room or communicate or interact with them. When we don't have the choice, it thereby generates the appearance of endorsement, promotion and un solicited advertisement.

I do fully respect everyone else's right to believe what they wish, worship that which they are comfortable with, read what they want, etc...

But in Al-Anon there can be no room for distortion. We are Al-Anon, a global recovery program for everyone of every religion, value or belief system, race, ethic background, nationality, economic status etc. We don't allow the advertisment, endorsement, or promotion of any one of their outside issues. Not even the ones we ourselves might believe in, because that would distort the purpose and singleness of purpose of Al-Anon for those who come from a different road.

Lastly, if I am walking the walk of my religious beliefs, I don't have to advertise or promote them, it will be attractive enough in my daily life that someone will ask me about my beliefs of their own vuliousion, and then... Outside of Al-Anon, over a cup of coffee I am free to share it.

Yours In Recovery,
John

Hi,

 I am a strong Christian but do believe we dont beat someone up with scriptures or our beliefs.I have another screen name on aol and it is a christian name out of respect for alanon I dont sign on that name or give it out or post it.

  Some might think it is giveing up their beliefs but for me I just thought I had beliefs until I got in alanon and got real now they are enhanced. thanks John

 dori

Geez, I have Christ in my name.

Picowitch is one of the sweetest, most gentle people I know. She is not a pot stirring witch with a wart on her nose. She never promoted her beliefs, ever.
I only know because I asked her. For all I know Halloween may have been her favorite time of year or the Wizard of Oz witch her favorite character. Who are we to judge?

She worships "Mother Earth", as we all should. As far as I know she was readily accepted by everyone that knew her.

Quote from wiccan site:
"When one defines oneself as Pagan, it means she or he follows an earth or nature religion, one that sees the divine manifest in all creation. The cycles of nature are our holy days, the earth is our temple, its plants and creatures our partners and teachers. We worship a deity that is both male and female, a mother Goddess and father God, who together created all that is, was, or will be. We respect life, cherish the free will of sentient beings, and accept the sacredness of all creation."


CHRISTy


-- Edited by Christy at 14:17, 2006-07-12

Truth is ONE, Men call it by various names.

In every scripture there is truth. In every living scripture there is truth too. Living scriptures are the people of the world, to me.  

My church is a Universalist church, one which recognizes the truth, wisdom and spirituality in all scriptures; honors in all saints, savants, gurus, lovers of God in all times and all lands.

I am deeply moved to see the truth coming from the different perspectives of others, and to see the sweet parallels of the truth as we all seek to find it, leading to the same source, albeit there are many different names for it. Which AlAnon says is ok.

The growth I experienced in my church saved my life, restored my course, and renewed my faith that all will be ok. In the courage that my spiritual growth bestowed in me, I came to AlAnon, and I cannot tell you how delighted I was to see that it is a program that honors all walks of faith and recognizes such wonderful tools as prayer and meditation which I apply to achieve a spiritual connection that restores me to the wholeness I so deeply desire.  I felt I'd come home, and I was sure of it the moment my new family welcomed me so compassionately.

I came here for answers, for help. And I have found infinite sources for that. I found others who need help, more still who give wonderful help. In seeing the fascinating results of learning to Detach with love, I also learned that these principles work in many different situations besides dealing with a struggling alcoholic and my challenges related to that. The principles also can be applied right here.

Not every time I come to this site can I expect a positive conversation. Sometimes, to my delight, I have been able to shift a negative atmosphere with a positive outlook. However, I cannot be surprised on the occasion that I may bring a positive input, and evoke a negative response. One thing that I have learned unequivocably is this: what remains unchanged here is a steady flow of wonderful people coming in to ask for help, and those that have returned to offer help to their friends in this fellowship.  My hope is that we live up to the openness described in the philosophy of the program. We openly accept the names we choose to address our Higher Power; cannot we accept the names we choose as ourselves?  

My daughter taught me, when she was four years old, this: "The reason people are in this world, is to help each other." I've never heard a better philosophy.

In closing, if I encounter a time that the feeling here isn't aligned with my desire to either find help or offer help, then there is a little red X button on my computer screen that has "detach" written all over it.

WITH LOVE

mac

 

yes, just a little warning, John.  Bo is right, Jesus is a common Latin American name,the  J ist pronounced as h.  try  "heysus" , u like in purpose, lol

So,let  us not be too hasty to judge, better not to judge  at all...for

"A Christian  is not a Christian, is not a Christian......" and

Shakespeare said, "What 's in a name?"

Living in old Europe, i say, however, bravo!  Well done!  You struck a note for religious freedom; everyone benefits.

best ,

toto

I think specific advertising or prosyletizing (sp?) should not be allowed . . . that is, if there is a chat going on it wouldn't be part of the alanon tradition for someone to start witnessing their faith and asking others if they wanted to become a specific faith.  However, using your faith as examples of your faith, hope, and experience is not doing this.  I am simply relaying what I have learned.  As one member said, in some of our literature there are quotes from all kinds of people and religions, including bible verses.  What ever happened to take what you want and leave the rest?

I was in an AA meeting with my AH . . . it was located in a Presbyterian Church.  My husband was talking about his own experience, and in a very small part just mentioned "Jesus" as an example he looks to . . . and he was very clear that this was for him or from his view.  The leader came up to him afterwards and asked him to not mention "Jesus" again as his HP.  Others there had said their HP was all kinds of things . . . some guy had even said he had to think of his HP as a Harley motorcycle.  All of this was acceptable, but not the mention of "Jesus."

The next week the leader came up and apologized and said he was wrong. He said he researched the traditions and how my husband had used it . . . just in an example of his own recovery and not in a religious promotion way was fine.

So, I think it may not be as black and white.  Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater and end up censoring people from expressing their faith . . . which is integral to their spirituality.

Easy does it everyone.