The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
If I want to quote religious scriptures, promote or advertise my religious beliefs, belittle, degrade others beliefs, condemn them with the wrath of God, or threaten them with hell etc.. I could and should join a like minded chat room, or a local ministry.. It doesn't belong in Al-Anon at all.
Alcoholism and the Suffering it brings to either the sufferer or those that love them doesn't care if we are Christians, Muslim, Hindu, Wicken, or even Wacko. It tears us apart, destroys the fiber of spirit inside the sufferer, and breeds a sense of defect and hopelessness in those around them.
It does not discriminate at all.
Nor does Al-Anon. Al-Anon does not endorse any outside causes, nor is it allowed in any room or medium that utilizes the name/word "Al-Anon". There are only two definetions that are acceptable for the purpose of describing or identifying a spiritual entity within an "Al-Anon" environment. God or Higher Power. The two words, names or titles (however you view them) that are used in the 12 Steps of every 12 Step program.
A Singleness of Purpose statement that is read at a great many meetings says..."Al-Anon Is Spoken Here". This means we do not discuss personal religious beliefs, promote or endorse religious doctrines, teach or quote religious scriptures. This means we are not to bring to the table shares that expound the value of one religious belief over another. It means we are to stand solidly on Tradition Two as a group in that "Our ulimate Authority is a Loving God, who expresses himself in our group conscious." Not to be expressed by any individual in our behalf, for our sake, or as our spokes person.
Now without a doubt many here are devote believers in Christianity. Some don't hesitate to express this when they should be hesitating. Because again, without a doubt, it would curle their hair big time if someone else affected by alcoholism stated and expounded upon their religious beliefs which promoted Satanism, Judism, Hinduism, Wackoism, or Islam. They would confront that individual and start a religious battle of words, debate religious philosophies, condone and condemn one another, degrade, belittle and devalue the personal relationship each other had with the "God, of their own understandings." Al-Anon would get absolutely lost in the mix and we'd lose the very reason we come together. To help each other and other Al-Anon's recover from the adverse effects of Alcoholism in their lives. We would literally be chasing many people away from Al-Anon because we are not speaking the language that they need to hear, and demonstrating the behaviors and attitudes that they need to see. The language of Al-Anon.
This is not where we are allowed or suppose to be attempting to sell, promote or bull dose our personal religious beliefs on any one else for any reason, in any way.
Tonight a person entered our chat room and put JesusIs_4Me as their nickname. Doesn't seem like too big a deal to most Christians. But many of the same ones would throw a fit if someone came into the room with AllahIsGod as their nickname or SatanLuvsU as a nickname. Our chat room would become a place of religious debates and the newcomer who came in would be exposed to everything but Al-Anon in the mist of it.
I pm'd this person 3 times, asking that they change their nick to one which is neutral because we are not allowed to promote or endorse any outside causes in Al-Anon. That Al-Anon is a spiritual program not a religious one, we are non denominational in that we cater to people of many religious beliefs and views and their using it as a nickname was inappropriate because it insinuated the promotion or advertisement of their personal belief. They did not respond to the PM's.
There were 5 other people in the room at this time. I then went directly into the chat room with my request, with this line;
"jesusis_4me.. this is not a room where you are allowed to express or promote your religous beliefs, this is Al-Anon, I am a Christian but out of respect for Al-Anon which caters to people of all religions I must ask you to change your nick to a neutural one or leave the room. This isn't up for debate its Al-Anon policy, please comply immediately."
This person went into debate mode, very defensively and I reiterated: "read what was said above, its not debatable"
Again this person tried to pull me into a debate with them, I didn't entertain it. I finally decided I had tried the nice, loving, warm way... and went to: "You are welcome to return when you are willing to respect Al-Anon traditions..we do not support any outside causes, you were given a fair chance to comply." They still didn't change their name and they didn't leave, they continued trying to suck me into the debate they were seeking, and I wasn't responding to. I then inserted my last statement to them; " end of subject.. you will be kicked at this time, should you return with it, you will be banned until you agree to use a neutral nickname."
Family, we can share about how God or our Higher Power brought us to Al-Anon, in a general way, How our God or Higher Power helped us in Al-Anon in a general way. We CANNOT define those words, names or titles in any way that seemingly promotes or advertises our personal religious beliefs, we CANNOT give expression to personal religious beliefs that in any way belittle, degrade or devalue the religious beliefs of others, We CANNOT quote scriptures, regardless of which religion they come from.
What we can do is Speak Al-Anon. We can Share our Experience, Strength and Hope as it relates to Alcoholism, Recovery from it, and Al-Anon as a medium by which that recovery was made possible.
On this board you are to speak Al-Anon. Not religion, not scriptures, not personal religious beliefs. If you choose to do so, please understand that all MIP Message Board Monitors are fully authorized to delete your post without explaination, without justifying and without having to defend themselves for it. They are attempting to ensure that this remains a Al-Anon environment, comfortable for people from all walks of life, and all religious backgrounds - whose lives have been adversely affected by Alcoholism.
Should one of your post be deleted for this reason and you choose to come here and debate it, harass the MIP board monitor about it, attempt to create controversy and division among our group members with it, start pm'ing members with pm's about it, you will be banned pending your written committment to end such an endeavor that stands to harm the newcomer seeing Al-Anon for the first time, other members of other religious beliefs, and Al-Anon as a whole by distorting its message with your message. If you violate the conditions of your commitment/return you will be banned permanently.
This is Al-Anon, a 12 Step program, not a place to do religious ministry work based on any individuals personal religious beliefs.
Leave it off the table or expect it to be taken off the table from here on out.
Yours In Recovery,
John F. (aka OP_Present)
Founder, Webmaster and Admin of Miracles In Progress
PS. All 5 room members present when this transpired in the chat room thanked me for addressing it there, they wanted to but were afraid to, were made to feel "Uncomfortable" by this persons nickname.. and 3 of them revealed to me that this was how they felt about this nick being in the room, even though they themselves were Christians. We are most definitely an Al-Anon Group in the truest sense of the words. Let's stay that way... Let's Speak Al-Anon.
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" And what did we gain? A new life, with purpose, meaning and constant progress, and all the contentment and fulfillment that comes from such growth."
Well, I am new to alanon; however this all seems like a suitable stance. That is if I understand the program correctly it should make EVERYONE feel welcomed and comfortable. The only way to do that is to yes, keep it generic in terms of religion/religious beliefs. Anything else would cause too much strife, and be damaging to the program itself.
This makes so much sense, and I love the buddhist, hindu, atheist, muslim, christian, wiccan or just plain wacko statement. No matter what that'll encompass us all.
Thanks for all your hard work,
lilms
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Two things: 1. Recovery is a process, not an event.....and.... 2. You only get to go around once. Leave em laughing and make it worth your while
thank U JOHN...........i am with lilms on this one............if someone is positive and loving and healing and defends the dignity of ALL living creatores, i don't care WHO / WHAT the worship........
i was getting a bit nervous, last night , seeing all the religion stuff........tradition TWO is there for a REASON.......this board should NOT be exclusionary ....i want to RECOVER.....whatever HP i embrace is for ME and MY recovery....
thanks John and monitors for keeping all this safe for all of us............rosie
Though one must be careful. Jesus is a common spanish name. My friends father for instance. I'd caution against an auto ban on the nick unless contacted like you attempted.
As for speaking of personal religious beliefs, where is the line. I'm new enough to Alanon to not profess to know. I do know that exposure to a variety of religious beliefs has allowed me to develop a HP that is much like that I've read in CAL and shared in meetings.
Would it mean that discussion of a specific religious ritual, is taboo, while sharing possibly that your religion has brought you to believe (insert adjectives/adverbs) about your HP?
Bob
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You are a perfect child of God and God and I love you just the way you are! (added by me...in that special alanon way)
Thanks John, eloquently put. I think for me I get the most out of Alanon spiritually because the steps help me apply the tools to my spiritual health. Coming from a background of rich spiritual exploration and valuing the different religions and cultures has helped me achieve a loving relationship with HP. Alanon has allowed me to gain a better understanding of my HP.
Great Job!
Twinmom~
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"The people who don't mind matter and the people who mind, don't matter". (Dr. Seuss)
Spirituality certainly has its place here. But the spiritaulity is different to each person. My HP is different from yours and anyone else's here. It is the joy of learning from each other and learning tolerance for each other's points of view that can be so empowering for us, and enable us to grow.
You absolutely did the right thing. Your hard work and dedication along with the other ops help make our recovery all the easier. From the bottom of my heart I thank each and every one of you.
Live strong,
Karilynn
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
Trust me... when sometimes against the popular opinion I have to do something to bring us back to what this site is about, to protect it, and its members safety, to ensure its longivity and presence in cyberspace, to defuse controversy, division and conflict in its early stages, to stand solidly by our programs steps, traditions and concepts of service...etc... and to also see that my vision, and this sites purpose as its webmaster and founder is not being distorted... etc...
Ol' John might set himself up to get blasted and "John bashing committees" are created to escalate the variables, and it literally breaks my heart when I am put in the position to become the "bad guy" in the view of others...
But today, because of this program, I no longer have to be a people pleaser, approval seeker that changes his colors depending on which environment he enters, or who he is talking to.
I am who I am. A human being that is prone to make a few mistakes from time to time. Who is learning, growing and healing and reaching out because he too needs support and because he has support to offer.
I like what I heard one speaker share recently....
"I had to learn that there is no wrong way to do what is right and no right way to do what is wrong".
In the Spirit of Recovery,
John
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" And what did we gain? A new life, with purpose, meaning and constant progress, and all the contentment and fulfillment that comes from such growth."
Thanks John, for keeping the Alanon chat and message board within the parameters of the Alanon philosophy, and especially for the new comers who have not attended a face to face meeting yet, so they do get more of an actual of how Alanon works for families and friends of alcoholics.........gardengal
I applaud the work you are doing here! This site has been such a blessing to me when I most needed support and encouragement. I have made some dear friends in the process.
I have just one question, with regards to bible verses. I know in my copy of One Day at a Time in Al-Anon, there are verses quoted from the bible on a regular basis. So is that wrong if we wanted to share a verse with someone that had encouraged us? I know this is not the place to share or preach my faith to others. And I would never condemn other's beliefs. I'm sorry this has gotten to be such an issue.
Aloha John and Mahalo (thanks) for the lesson in courage and commitment. Character assets to aid recovery.
To Mel...CAL literature never promotes any religious belief and uses a vast amount of wisdom from many sources to support the atmosphere of recovery from the disease of alcoholism in which we are primary participants. A very honest question when sharing with any other member is, "What's my motive?" "Why am I doing what I am doing/saying what I am saying and what do I hope to get out of it." Many share their religious views for the hope of self verification and while not everyone does this, whenever a religious share is done for the purpose of directing another member toward what I believe, this is not acceptable in the least and at best an attempt to control another.
I was raised religiously and have had others make major attacks against what and how I believed including family, friends, ex-wives, solicitors, sponsees etc. What worked for me was the suggestion that I get a power greater than myself for obvious reasons, and being allowed the freedom to discover that relationship between my Higher Power and myself for myself. Two of the best motivators I have had over my time in recovery was Fr. Martin and John, a Black foot Indian who said the Lord's (His word was Creator) Prayer in a way I had never heard before and that opened my christian mind to the world of the spirit.
One of my first fears upon entering the Al-Anon Family Groups was that this was another religion. Had that been true I would have left and stayed away and most likely died by my own hand. I respect what all others believe. I also accept that some of these beliefs keep them at length from real mind, body, spiritual and emotional recovery. They practice believing and stay sick! In my experience, Higher Power cannot be contained (should not for me) in anyone line of thought or acceptance from anyone source. Otherwise it would not be Higher Power.
My Higher Power can and does use anything and anyone to help me gain and maintain spiritual serenity and for that I am eternally grateful.
Hi John, glad to hear you are watching out for us! I am sorry it had to go that far with the person. I too would not have stayed if this were just another religion. I agree with you, it is the motive behind it. If someone was trying to pursuade me to join this or that religion, I would not be very happy about it. Keeping it to a HP of our understanding lets each of us discover what or who that HP is to us as individuals. That aids in our recovey process. To criticize others for their beliefs is against Al-Anon principles. And recovery is the ultimate goal!!!! We are here to be supportive to each other. Many of us get enough criticism from our families of origin & our A's. Thank you for keeping us safe!!!
hi, I agree completly . At one time there was a religious member at a meeting I had attended it made the meeting extremly incomfortable and some people stopped coming. This is a great point, Briana:
Not to start an arguement, but I noticed a person come into the chat room with the nick "picowitch." Isn't "witchcraft" considered by some a form of religion? I always thought so. So with that in mind, shouldn't that person have to change their nick? Certainly the person did not 'preach" their beliefs, we were all just generally chatting, but it hit me. I am just asking out of curiosity.
The nick "picowitch" isn't in fact promoting a religion, but is in fact advertising the person's individual religion. I believe this steps over the line in cyberspace, because we don't get the choice to look at the persons face, what they are wearing, their smile or frown, we are by no choice of our own put in a position to repeatedly read their "personal advertisement" because all we can see or look at is the nickname they display.
The advertising of one's religious beliefs via their nickname is not allowed. For in doing so they are promoting an outside cause, their own, in that we are subjected to it as a group without any choice as to whether we want to be inflicted with someone else's brand of religion or not.
I am a Christian, a relatively strong one. I am a very proud one. But I wouldn't want a Satanist to be allowed to come into our room and advertise their religion, and thus promote it by my not having any choice regarding my exposure to it in our Al-Anon room, I have to extend the same policy of respect to all people, of all religions. We can't have a one sided policy, "as long as its Christian its okay"
Alcoholism doesn't care what religion someone is or isn't. Nor does Al-Anon. It's an outside issue, and belongs outside our rooms.
We also have someone that occassionally comes into our room with a scriptures Name, Chapter and Verse as their nickname. They are going to be dealt with the same way, for the same reasons. We also have someone that comes in with a nick that points out their alignment with the Wicken religion. They too are going to be dealt with the same way.
Let's say someone came into a f2f meeting with a Christian T-Shirt on, or other religious organizations advertisement. Would we ask them to leave the meeting until they changed their shirt? No, absolutely not. Why? Because we can see so much more of them than that, that it allots us the opportunity to look at them in the face, at their smile or frown, at things around them in the room. We are not stuck, without any choice of our own to read their T-Shirt every time we enter the room or communicate or interact with them. When we don't have the choice, it thereby generates the appearance of endorsement, promotion and un solicited advertisement.
I do fully respect everyone else's right to believe what they wish, worship that which they are comfortable with, read what they want, etc...
But in Al-Anon there can be no room for distortion. We are Al-Anon, a global recovery program for everyone of every religion, value or belief system, race, ethic background, nationality, economic status etc. We don't allow the advertisment, endorsement, or promotion of any one of their outside issues.Not even the ones we ourselves might believe in, because that would distort the purpose and singleness of purpose of Al-Anon for those who come from a different road.
Lastly, if I am walking the walk of my religious beliefs, I don't have to advertise or promote them, it will be attractive enough in my daily life that someone will ask me about my beliefs of their own vuliousion, and then... Outside of Al-Anon, over a cup of coffee I am free to share it.
Yours In Recovery, John
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" And what did we gain? A new life, with purpose, meaning and constant progress, and all the contentment and fulfillment that comes from such growth."
It's a difficult call to make, but I think you are on the right track. I hope that those who will be asked to change their nicks take this in the right spirit - it is not an attack on their religious freedom, but rather a guarantee of Traditions 5 and 6.
In my f2f group, one member is a member of a religious sect that requires her to dress distinctively. When she shares, mention of her religion tends to come up quite a lot, as their rather unusual living conditions require her to use alanon tools a lot. As John says, in a f2f, this ends up being OK - we see more of her than her dress. She also sees us, and, if she gets carried away, has a chance to notice that others are becoming uncomfortable, and reins herself in.
I am a strong Christian but do believe we dont beat someone up with scriptures or our beliefs.I have another screen name on aol and it is a christian name out of respect for alanon I dont sign on that name or give it out or post it.
Some might think it is giveing up their beliefs but for me I just thought I had beliefs until I got in alanon and got real now they are enhanced. thanks John
What I have a problem seeing is how a nickname like picowitch is any more of an advertisement for that particular belief than BobUmp is an endorsement of baseball.
Also, how can we deny someone their name like that as advertising their religion, while we openly site a Christian prayer at the end of our online meetings as do many of our f2f meetings.
When it comes to religion, I really think we need a QTIP. A nickname never forced me to believe, nor did it ask me to or stick their beliefs down my throat. The Lord's Prayer makes many non Christians uncomfortable too.
I personally would not spiritually be where I am today and especially where I am today w/o exposure to many believes. Someone mentioned motives. What are the motives of those that would say (and I don't mean this personally John) "picowitch" name bad. Lords prayer in meeting, Good? If you allow one in the name of inclusion and no confrontation, I believe you should allow the other.
To me, it only seems to be catering to Christians who are offended by others beliefs.
Bob
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You are a perfect child of God and God and I love you just the way you are! (added by me...in that special alanon way)
Picowitch is one of the sweetest, most gentle people I know. She is not a pot stirring witch with a wart on her nose. She never promoted her beliefs, ever. I only know because I asked her. For all I know Halloween may have been her favorite time of year or the Wizard of Oz witch her favorite character. Who are we to judge?
She worships "Mother Earth", as we all should. As far as I know she was readily accepted by everyone that knew her.
Quote from wiccan site: "When one defines oneself as Pagan, it means she or he follows an earth or nature religion, one that sees the divine manifest in all creation. The cycles of nature are our holy days, the earth is our temple, its plants and creatures our partners and teachers. We worship a deity that is both male and female, a mother Goddess and father God, who together created all that is, was, or will be. We respect life, cherish the free will of sentient beings, and accept the sacredness of all creation."
CHRISTy
-- Edited by Christy at 14:17, 2006-07-12
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
For those that would like to see that this has been brought up before, and there was much support for our member and no voiced opposition, I'd like to refer to the previous thread from Nov 2005.
In every scripture there is truth. In every living scripture there is truth too. Living scriptures are the people of the world, to me.
My church is a Universalist church, one which recognizes the truth, wisdom and spirituality in all scriptures; honors in all saints, savants, gurus, lovers of God in all times and all lands.
I am deeply moved to see the truth coming from the different perspectives of others, and to see the sweet parallels of the truth as we all seek to find it, leading to the same source, albeit there are many different names for it. Which AlAnon says is ok.
The growth I experienced in my church saved my life, restored my course, and renewed my faith that all will be ok. In the courage that my spiritual growth bestowed in me, I came to AlAnon, and I cannot tell you how delighted I was to see that it is a program that honors all walks of faith and recognizes such wonderful tools as prayer and meditation which I apply to achieve a spiritual connection that restores me to the wholeness I so deeply desire. I felt I'd come home, and I was sure of it the moment my new family welcomed me so compassionately.
I came here for answers, for help. And I have found infinite sources for that. I found others who need help, more still who give wonderful help. In seeing the fascinating results of learning to Detach with love, I also learned that these principles work in many different situations besides dealing with a struggling alcoholic and my challenges related to that. The principles also can be applied right here.
Not every time I come to this site can I expect a positive conversation. Sometimes, to my delight, I have been able to shift a negative atmosphere with a positive outlook. However, I cannot be surprised on the occasion that I may bring a positive input, and evoke a negative response. One thing that I have learned unequivocably is this: what remains unchanged here is a steady flow of wonderful people coming in to ask for help, and those that have returned to offer help to their friends in this fellowship. My hope is that we live up to the openness described in the philosophy of the program. We openly accept the names we choose to address our Higher Power; cannot we accept the names we choose as ourselves?
My daughter taught me, when she was four years old, this: "The reason people are in this world, is to help each other." I've never heard a better philosophy.
In closing, if I encounter a time that the feeling here isn't aligned with my desire to either find help or offer help, then there is a little red X button on my computer screen that has "detach" written all over it.
I have seen several good points made here. I only wish to put my few cents in too! LOL
When I came into program, I was coming from a religious background. Since being in program, I find myself on a spiritual path. One that my HP has led me on. I am not sure really where I am heading, but I know that today, I am more spiritual than ever before. I also found that being of or with a religion is actually different than being of a spiritual person. I believe that one must find some sort of a HP to get through what we have gone through to get where we are going. that is why I am here. I love al anon. I have met some really awesome people here. And for that, I hope to come back for yrs to come. (John, that means you can't leave us! LOL)
Anyway, Religious or not, what ever your belief, and if you are new, YOU ARE WELCOME here! We urge you to try our program to see if it is right for you! Keep coming back, it works if ya work it!
OK, since these are starting, I have to add another.
Yes, Jesus in a common name, but so is Christian. I know of a few personally that are females. That is there true name, so what is in a name, except, like John said, was asked to change an extremely obvious name as the one he mentioned and they did not respect being asked to change it. But just a name in itself I don't think should in itself be the only factor. If it is a name vs several names put together such as Jesus_I_Love vs just Jesus. Does that makes sense? I don't know. Makes sense to me though.
I think specific advertising or prosyletizing (sp?) should not be allowed . . . that is, if there is a chat going on it wouldn't be part of the alanon tradition for someone to start witnessing their faith and asking others if they wanted to become a specific faith. However, using your faith as examples of your faith, hope, and experience is not doing this. I am simply relaying what I have learned. As one member said, in some of our literature there are quotes from all kinds of people and religions, including bible verses. What ever happened to take what you want and leave the rest?
I was in an AA meeting with my AH . . . it was located in a Presbyterian Church. My husband was talking about his own experience, and in a very small part just mentioned "Jesus" as an example he looks to . . . and he was very clear that this was for him or from his view. The leader came up to him afterwards and asked him to not mention "Jesus" again as his HP. Others there had said their HP was all kinds of things . . . some guy had even said he had to think of his HP as a Harley motorcycle. All of this was acceptable, but not the mention of "Jesus."
The next week the leader came up and apologized and said he was wrong. He said he researched the traditions and how my husband had used it . . . just in an example of his own recovery and not in a religious promotion way was fine.
So, I think it may not be as black and white. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater and end up censoring people from expressing their faith . . . which is integral to their spirituality.
John, thank you soooooo much for your reply to my question. On the other site, I was trying to express myself on something on the order of what sympoli replied here but I made a huge mistake in the way I expressed it myself. I've learned that I came off in an inappropiate manner and I in no way meant to degrade or offend anyone or push my personal beliefs in that topic. I regret the fact that I probably did do that to a lot of readers. Your reply put forth clearly what I really needed to know as I obviously did not fully understand before. I now know what is a acceptable and what isn't. I have gleaned helpful information from each of the replies here. Again,thank you very, very, much......jaja