Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

mamalioness · ~*Service Worker*~

RE: Problem child

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

I was inspired tonight so I ordered this very special pizza from a local place. I discovered it by accident, and they've been making it for me since, although it's a bit of a treat, LOL.

Oh, did I enjoy it. LOL. That said, there was a time that even though I started "living" and enjoying life, to some extent -- I still didn't let go of the focus and obsession on her. The focus was less and certainly the obsession was as well. However, as long there was focus, as long as she was in my head rent free, that was the same amount that I was prevented from getting better. I didn't have to ignore. I had to detach, mentally and physically. I had to observe, watch -- and not try to fix, control, persuade, convince, prove, and so on.

Thank you.

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

Iamhere,

I doubt my daughter is capable of honoring any request from me. She answered a friend of hers regarding her safety this weekend (since she isn't using her phone I bought her) but she wouldn't answer ME. She has an "all or nothing" attitude-either someone does EVERYTHING she wants or she tries to guilt/blame them and will take nothing less than what she wants. Family apparently "does not love her" if we offer her less than what she wants. I would love to be able to have a weekly or monthly call to be sure she is ok but if there is nothing in it for her, she would and does refuse. How in the world do you do a welfare check if you have no idea where your sons are? Other than this smart family plan I had her on (for a whole month), I wouldn't have any idea where she is.

Her crying is real and her sobbing is real but not to the point of being willing to give up the substances she uses (and I really don't know what she uses). I'm sure her fear is real, too. That is the part that is really hard for me. She is telling me in 101 ways that she doesn't want me to be a part of her life and that is cool. But to call and cry and sob breaks my heart. I gave her useful suggestions (go to ER, claim to be a danger to self). Whatever she is on will be revealed in drug testing and she will get assistance. Her warrants may be uncovered in the process and for some reason, that is scary to her. I would much rather be in jail than be hunted by predators out there but I guess that is just me.

Anywho...I paid out her new phone plan (the cost of the phone) since she is no longer using it. Either it was deliberate or she sucks at keeping a phone safe. Either way...it is done. I bought the phone a month ago. A MONTH AGO! It cost $250 to buy out the plan. She has no respect for me and I know it is the disease, not personal. Now I can reduce my data plan back down from unlimited that I had to go on for her usage. Sigh.

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

Bo- it seems this was the weekend for a pizza indulgence! That makes three of us just on this thread! And yes, not just any pizza will do, will it?

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

No, this was a very special, off the menu pie, which I discovered by accident. Now they make it for me. Just thinking about it, makes my mouth water.

That said, back to program...LOL...focus on YOU now. Stop looking, thinking about, planning -- the calls, the checks, the phone plan, what she's thinking, how she feels about you, family, etc. Let it all go. YOU, YOU, FOCUS on YOU...and the pizza!!! LOL.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

The authorities have resources that I don't. I also knew enough of the people mine were hanging with as well as where he was last seen to give to them - it usually did not take long for contact once their friends were questioned. The company mine were keeping were not too keen on having authorities hanging around and/or asking questions.

There is no right/wrong way to detach from a child with this disease. We all have to do what we can to save our own sanity. Hang in there and know we're here however we can be!

serenity47 · ~*Service Worker*~

Baby steps. My reactions, fears, obsession with controlling the disease in my daughter did not go away over night. I still screw up often and find myself preoccupied with what she is doing or not doing, snooping, trying to fill that need to know. When I do know something is not right, then what? It doesn't change a darn thing it only disturbs me and makes me very anxious and fraught with worry. I am in a constant tug of war and have to be vigilant not to pick up the rope. The less I know the better, her recovery or lack of recovery is her business not mine. My recovery is my business . I have started to tell her that I don't want to hear any dramatic stories about her or others as it upsets me. She does respect this boundary when I speak up. The best thing I ever did for my self was to join here and to get myself to a AlAnon and NarANON meeting.

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

Well, Iamhere, you are helping! You are all helping! I have not considered detaching until I posted here. It was more like I didn't know what I didn't know...ya know? aww It is also alittle like a romantic break up (or a divorce...boy those things sting). There is a grief process for losing things that matter either real or imagined. Tell me if I am wrong?!?! That's the way I see it as a way to detach. The 5 states of grief is not necessarily a linear process either. And I don't think you can tell a person, "Stop thinking about it! It is over!" lol

Yes, I am grieving what was but now is not. This person is not the same. This person may never BE the same. This relationship will surely never be the same and that is both good and bad. I have been divorced and that is surely difficult. But there is something powerful about a Mother/Child relationship. It is more difficult to accept, for me, that I cease to be important to that child. That child will ALWAYS be important to me but it must be different now. That child may not be a safe person for me now and that certainly has to be accepted. But the first smile, the first words, the first steps, the first day of school, the lioness feeling when my child's feelings were hurt-these things will never fade in memory. They are a part of the essence of who I am. Not WAS. I know there is a way for me to love her, treasure the memories and never stop hoping and praying for reconciliation. Remember the prodigal son? Father didn't stop living his life. In fact, he probably hoped, prayed and prepared himself for a forgiving heart. He was blessed with a return of his son (without the street drugs that exist today, lol).

So I don't see anything wrong with hoping, praying and forgiving. Are y'all telling me I can't do those things? Isn't there a difference in codependency and healthy love? Am I supposed too stop loving her? confuse

mamalioness · ~*Service Worker*~

So I don't see anything wrong with hoping, praying and forgiving. Are y'all telling me I can't do those things? Isn't there a difference in codependency and healthy love? Am I supposed too stop loving her?

***********

Oh no!!!! as long as there is life there is some hope, and no harm in prayer as long as , for me, anyway, I ask for the peace to accept what I cannot change, and courage to change the things I can....I don't know what my older daughter's life path is or her lessons, so what I WANT may not happen...I got very bitter at God/HP for praying for specifics and not being heard/answered...But when I began to just do my best and let the outcome go, I saw better results..I will just keep casting the burdens of my fears and Codependency and keep giving my daughter over to her maker and let go....the outcome, (getting her back which is what I crave) is not in my control....as to forgiving?? of COURSE I forgive her for she knows not what she does and shes harming herself more, even, then she is hurting me, because I will get used to not having her, I will settle in doing life and yes, I forgive, but I won't be as close to her because I am getting worn out and I'm older, more tired, wanting peace, etc., so she is harming herself....yes, I love her and forgive her but that doesn't necessarily mean I will want to get real close ever again....forgiveness is an action of ONE...reconciliation is an action of TWO....would I want her real close to hurt me again???? perhaps not, but I will ALWAYS love her, that won't change, but at my age, I want my peace..My serenity....My life simple w/out drama and on and off again relationships...not even with her......I will hold hope, but conservatively...I will say I MAY get her back, but my expectations are low......And there was never a question of forgiveness because she doesn't know what she is doing, the love she is casting away....Codependent love is controlling, enabling, not letting them learn their lessons, etc., healthy love is respecting the fact that they are their own spirit with their own mind sets, their own life path and yea, we raised them up, prepared them for life in the world the best we could, but after that?? they are on their own....Hopefully they want us in their lives as we age, but it doesn't always happen....So I make my own life...with or without her, I shall make a life for me...OH!!! and I too, grieve over the love I lost with her...the changes that the drugs did to her...the girl she was is gone!!!, I miss her...This girl that has taken her place, I see a hardness, grateful that she is sober, but I see a hardness, a selfishness, a different person....I grieve too...You are not alone...Mine is sober, working, etc., but shes changed...........

-- Edited by mamalioness on Monday 25th of June 2018 11:38:27 PM

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

I am totally feelin' ya, Mamalioness! Thanks for the understanding and the support. OH, AND YOUR STORY! Thanks for all of your stories. It is always less lonely and creates more understanding to share. I am learning from you. God bless you awesome human beings!

-- Edited by RachelsMom on Monday 25th of June 2018 11:44:02 PM

mamalioness · ~*Service Worker*~

((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((RachelsMom)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

RachelsMom - I felt way more hopeless before Al-Anon as my thinking was often distorted. I viewed so many (maybe all) things as black/white --- right/wrong, etc. Recovery taught me shades of gray and when fear begins to come up inside me, I really lean into this program and all the tools to work on getting right-sized. It's not easy and there's been a lot of practice, so I'm a work in progress and will always be!

I will never give up on my sons. And yes - grieving has been real. I worked with a great sponsor to determine what I was grieving about....was it all real or was part of it caused by my own visions/views of how I thought their life should be? There was both in my world and working to find my truth vs. my fantasy thinking really helped me find peace with the wayward path they've traveled and continue to do so.

I would love to say that my heart and brain are always aligned, and when I project today, it's hunky-dory, positive and lovely. Unfortunately, my brain was programmed by this disease to project doom/gloom so I'm happy when I can just stop projecting and come right back to the here/now. For me, spending time looking at the past and/or the future rarely brings peace of joy so I do as suggested in recovery and really work hard to focus on just today.

As part of my daily recovery routine, I do remind myself that an attitude of gratitude is a gift and there is no shame in believing that the 'best is yet to come.' I am who I am today and where I am today because of those who came before me in recovery and were willing to offer suggestions without advice or judgement. (((Hugs))) - keep coming back!

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

RachelsMom wrote:
Yes, I am grieving what was but now is not. This person is not the same. This person may never BE the same. This relationship will surely never be the same and that is both good and bad. I have been divorced and that is surely difficult. But there is something powerful about a Mother/Child relationship. It is more difficult to accept, for me, that I cease to be important to that child. That child will ALWAYS be important to me but it must be different now. That child may not be a safe person for me now and that certainly has to be accepted. But the first smile, the first words, the first steps, the first day of school, the lioness feeling when my child's feelings were hurt-these things will never fade in memory. They are a part of the essence of who I am. Not WAS. I know there is a way for me to love her, treasure the memories and never stop hoping and praying for reconciliation. Remember the prodigal son? Father didn't stop living his life. In fact, he probably hoped, prayed and prepared himself for a forgiving heart. He was blessed with a return of his son (without the street drugs that exist today, lol).
So I don't see anything wrong with hoping, praying and forgiving. Are y'all telling me I can't do those things? Isn't there a difference in codependency and healthy love? Am I supposed too stop loving her?

First, the first thing I underlined and bolded -- remember -- JUST FOR TODAY. That person is not the same, the relationship is not the same...BUT...just for today. Don't write scripts that decide and factualize the future. Just for today. We don't know what the future -- or even tomorrow -- holds. Which is why we live...ONE DAY AT A TIME.

Second, yes, for now, just for now, it must be different -- because you must be different. You need to and are making change -- detachment, not enabling, not contributing, not being a partner in the day to day drama, chaos, turmoil, and havoc.

Third, there is nothing wrong with hoping, praying, and forgiving. However, remember, all of those are a slippery slope. Hoping must include you keeping your head where your feet are. Staying grounded, rooted, in your program, in being healthy. You can hope -- but don't be vested in the outcome. Don't have expectations. Why? Because if things don't work out, if she doesn't get clean and sober...then YOU still have to be OK, healthy, and yes, even happy. This is why in the opening of many official, conference approved alanon meetings -- it says -- you can find contentment, even happiness, whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not. That means YOU can be OK even if the alcoholic isn't. So, we need to be careful that our "hoping" doesn't lead to unhealthy things -- unhealthy thinking, actions, reactions, that it doesn't lead to not detaching, that it doesn't lead to enabling, and so on. Our praying is just that -- praying, that the alcoholic/addict makes the decision on their own, that they want to get clean and sober and live a life of recovery. We can pray. But we can't force, control, try to fix, try to force our will, etc. And forgiving -- that's a conversation for another time, LOL. In my experience, what kept me healthy was setting boundaries. Boundaries are for ME, not the other person. They protect ME. What protects me as well -- is that I can perhaps forgive, but I do not forget. Forgiving is not always possible. But if we are strong, and can focus on being healthy -- then, yes, we can forgive. But we should not forget.

There is a difference between co-dependency and (healthy) love. It is hard to love someone, unconditionally, when they punch you in the face every day. Point being, it is hard, it is unhealthy, to love an alcoholic/addict unconditionally, when they are still using/drinking. We can detach with love -- that's foundational in alanon. No, you don't stop loving the person -- unless that's your genuine, authentic, etc., feeling and being. But that aside, you can love the person -- but not be obsessed, not be sitting next to them on the day to day roller coaster. That may not be "good enough" for them...but it is healthy for us!

All the best.

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

Got an email from daughter, said she got robbed/raped trying to get a ride to a homeless shelter. The last time I talked with her, I offered everything under the sun and talked non stop about homeless shelters and how they require drug free admission. How did she plan on getting in???

I have no doubt that she is in dire need. She couldn't hold a logical conversation with me last time we talked so we couldn't make any kind of plan. You guys have been in this situation before, right? What do you do? I want to turn her over to authorities for the warrants or have her involuntarily committed. I want to go get her but where? What will I be walking into? The last time I gave her cash on a card for her rent ($500), she used it to take Ubers all around town until it was gone. I believe she is doing more than smoking weed and drinking alcohol. The last time she was at my house, she asked for foil and left a brown residue on it when I found it later. I'm not sure if this is heroin, crack or meth. But it's not just weed.

Now I have to go too work soon and be tortured about all of this. She should just turn herself in and stop dodging warrants. There's a safe roof over her head for the next 8 months or so.

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

Talked to police dept in the liberal area where she is "living". He says they don't drug test there because everyone is a drug user, lol. I can't imagine that daughter can't get to a homeless shelter when she gets everywhere else in a 24 hour period of time! The police dept isn't concerned about her warrants unless they can serve her at a living location or call 911 when you know her location. Police officer said that if she needs help, she can get it, sounds like she is not ready yet.

Those words are so easily said by someone who doesn't really care.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

((Rachels))) sending prayers your way . The police officer is correct there is help out there .

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

Thanks Hotrod. I know I'm going into the crazy making circle again! evileye

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

(((RachelsMom))) - I too am sending prayers and positive thoughts your way. One thing I had to accept and pray about is each time I thought mine had to at or close to their bottom, I was off-base. I held tight to tons of prayers for God's will as, like you, I was truly uncertain what I could do differently. Please take good care of you and keep coming back!

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

Geez, how low can they go? Actual death? Is that considered low enough?

I hate that I'm still awake.

I hate that I've been checking my email all through the night at work.

I hate that I just paid for that flippin phone and some cheesed*ck stole it.

I hate that guy straight to hell for hurting my master manipulator daughter.

I hate that my daughter used to think it was fun to beat up bums and steal belongings from cars. Back at you you little sh*t.

I hate that I am a nervous f*cking wreck. Again. Approximately a 24 hr reprieve. That's all I allowed myself.

I hate that God hears me but doesn't speak to me. I hate that some people think my faith isn't big enough.

I hate that people think I should be able to stop being in pain. I can't.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

(((MOM))) being powerless is indeed the most diffiuclt place to be. Alanon meetings helped me when i was feeliing as you are now - The support of like minded"others works miracles.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

(((RachelsMom))) - what Betty said is so true for me too. You are not alone and there is hope and help in recovery.

lgnutah · Senior Member

RachelsMom I can relate to everything you are saying and feeling. I have PM'ed you.

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

I replied. Anyone in chat? I tried it last night but I was the only one there. That happens to night shift workers often...no one around. haha

I called for individual counseling to manage the stress of recent events. Appt is not until August. I wonder when the next one will be after August? January? haha

Rachel began to have issues with authority around 14. She had "splitting" behavior with her ( divorced) dad and I. She lived with me but told her Dad that she didn't like being forced to go to church, that it violated her rights to her spirituality. He agreed and her authority issues deepened. I tried to accommodate her "spiritual wishes" but left her home and she got into beer in the fridge. So from that point on, church was a family activity and she had to go. At 15, I gave up the fight. If he wanted her, he got her. He didn't expect that. He had no idea how to parent and was way too permissive. I wonder if I should have kept fighting. She was already going down bad paths with substance abuse and suicidal ideation on Myspace. I took her back into my home against her wishes. At 16, the court granted her wish to live with the parent of her choice and back to Dad's she went. Then the heavy drug use started. Raves, days away from home, skipping school, crack cocaine, sexual activity, delinquent activity- Dad unable and unwilling to try to stop it. Then she ran away from his home. His girlfriend didn't want her there (who could blame her). My husband was quite a trooper about it but it turned out to be too much for us, too. Her step dad and I found her, picked her up, involuntarily committed her, found a lock down rehab, gained sole custody and we all finally had peace for a few months. We traveled to her private rehab that we couldn't afford and took part in the parent part of "reawakening" and counseling. I took part in her individual counseling via telephone the other months. It helped her a lot. She got out and finished her GED, took the required 30 particular college credits to get into a 4 year college and she got accepted. Youngest daughter agreed to move to a new location close to her university to support her so we did. The next 2 years were good, she did well in university. Then she was raped. Then she had a heroin addicted boyfriend. Then she was drugged and raped again. Then she quit school and moved away. Since that time (2011?) she has been unable to have a relationship with anyone healthy, basically homeless, reenrolled in college for two more semesters but dropped and used her financial aid package to live on. When that ran out (2013?) she has been a mess ever since. I should be used to it by now. I am relieved when she has any sort of boyfriend because at least I know she has a roof, someone else is putting up with her. But now I don't think even the most insane person can tolerate her more than a week.

I haven't invested in me. I can't have fun-I don't remember how, I can't afford it anyway. I make good money but I'm still cleaning up messes from years ago. I have a job, career, home I have a mortgage on, like to do home projects for fun, I bought an elliptical machine recently and want to be regular about that. I want to invest in a healthy relationship with my youngest daughter. I don't want a romantic relationship until I am able to fix some things about myself or other wise, a relationship would fail.

And this is my life. Sorry for the self absorption.

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

I heard from daughter a few minutes ago. Now she is, apparently, "mad at me for not caring about her enough." So now she is done with me, "buh bye" as she said. I just told her that whatever helps her is best-sad but best and that I loved her. I had to repeat "I love you" after another attack. And you know what? Perhaps she is right! Perhaps in my current state and her in her current state, separation is best! She never did tell me (this occurred in an email) where she is living or if she made it to a homeless shelter. I asked but she didn't answer. That is either her disconnect or memory issue or it could be a manipulative method to keep me on edge. It doesn't appear that she knows that I'm on edge so I guess she doesn't read here, lol.

I am sure I will hear from her again, sooner rather than later. Maybe it will be calm for awhile until I get to counseling. Wanna take bets?

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Still sending you tons of positive thoughts and prayers. I am glad you heard from her - at least she's safe for today. Good for you to seek some outside support - I am hopeful you can find/get to some meetings between then and now. I do believe you will find others who've had similar experiences that can support you and your goals. (((Hugs)))

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

About 45 minutes later, I heard from her again with a lot of accusations and things that didn't make sense. I didn't know how to respond. I am tired of being upset and allowing myself to ride the rollercoaster. Maybe not responding was the best thing for both of us. I feel like I should say something about her rape-I was extremely upset about that! But she had already told me she didn't want to talk to me anymore so I decided not to respond because the rollercoaster won't stop if I do.

So did I do the right thing? First she tells me "buh bye" that I don't care. Then she seems to want to incite things again by crazy accusations (I want her to be incarcerated and raped with a broomstick?). What the heck? I want no such thing. So I didn't respond. Is this ok?

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

You have repeatedly expressed your love and concern for her in your words and actions. I would not allow her verbal, inaccurate accusations to enter into my mind as you can validate how much you care by the words you speak to her and the actions you have taken in support of her. Recite the serenity prayer and remember all your assets . Sending prayers along for you and your daughter.

RachelsMom · Veteran Member

Thank you Hotrod.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene