Al-Anon Family Group

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: Question about Dry Drunkedness


Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Date:
Question about Dry Drunkedness


I don't want to "bury the lead" so right here at the top of this post is my question: all the definitions I've seen of Dry Drunk seemed to suggest that it pertains exclusively to people that had a drinking problem but don't drink now. That are abstinent, but not sober. That are effectively "white knuckling" it and are probably in very real danger of relapsing. My problem with this is that in my circumstances, I'm dealing with a man, my father, who rarely drank and when he did, limited to at most a couple of beers or a glass of wine. And then it was really infrequently. Behaviorally however, he is the prototypical Dry Drunk in terms of his behavior. I mean, the descriptions I've read "nail" him so precisely it's amazing and even a little disconcerting. And in painfully real terms I grew up in what was effectively an alcoholic family -- with little or no alcohol present. How can this be? Literally everything I read about what happens to people that grow up with alcoholic parents, has happened to me and my siblings.  How? Why? What the !@#$?

 

Backing up a bit... Hello, I'm new here.  My name is Randy, I'm an "industrial shaman" specializing in leadership development, hence my weird screen name.  But that's not important because I'm just like you.  I've been in recovery for the baffling and cruel family disease of alcoholism for coming up on a year. My wife slipped and went in to the program mainly to shame her into going into AA. That was dumb. Within my first few minutes in my first meeting I realized I should have been in this program decades ago. Now. I am actively working a program and for the first time in many years, I am feeling better about myself and my life. Prior to joining the fellowship of Al-Anon I spun on one foot and tried every therapeutic means I knew to try and get my unmanageable life under control. I saw a shrink, got treated for ADD, attended couples counseling and when I started losing it (feeling completely out of control and going nuts)  began treatment for PTSD that involved 30 rounds (5-7 is the norm) of EMDR with a phenomenally gifted and compassionate therapist which helped a great deal to a point. It certainly helped me to peel back the defenses and really get into the head of my very young self as I was being brutalized at the hands of a very sick father thus coming to understand how my past was informing my present.  I've found that while simply gaining insight is  helpful and even helps relieve some pain, it only goes so far towards helping me make the sort of changes to the way I behave day to day, hour by hour, minute by minute that I need to make.  With Al-Anon, I'm feeling grateful now to have a road map and good company and most important, a means to work a program with a sponsor to help me recover. Wait - I don't drink or drug, why am I the sick @#$%!  

For what it's worth, Al-Anon it's helping me more than all the other aforementioned treatments combined.  And possibly it's because of all the work I've done previously that it's working so well - I'm not certain and it doesn't matter really. Point is I am on a good path but this issue, has me very confused and I'm hoping to hear from some of you what you think is up.  Is my father a dry drunk? Is there another, better way to look at this? Is there another label that fits better? 

To respond I assume you'll need to know a little more about how I grew up and how my father behaved.  He grew up in a large family (a real McCoy actually) and his father was a drunk.  He was very much abandoned as his father, a successful businessman and a philandering tent preacher who just had other priorities and his mother was either overwhelmed or at times, clinically depressed so badly she shut down resulting in my father either raising himself or being tended to by one of his older sisters. He was a victim of sexual abuse at the hands of an older neighbor woman when he was 9.  He was whip smart and a successful athlete and a real goody-two-shoes growing up.  He hated bullies and fought a lot. His mother forbade him from accepting any of the four college scholarships for sports he was offered so he joined the Navy and ended up attached to the commander of the entire Pacific Fleet as his go to radioman.  He got horribly savaged in the Korean Conflict when he a jeep he was travelling in got blown up and the marines he was with got bayoneted while he played dead. He killed a bunch of North Koreans with his hands and a knife as he fought his way back to his carrier... and of course he has PTSD. As a new husband and father he (by his own account to me later) vowed to never be a drunk and never to beat his wife - as his father had. He also vowed to be very present and active in his children's life. Sounds good on paper right? Who hasn't made similar vows to themselves? But a few years into his marriage he got real messed up fighting a fire and it resulted in some long term health issues that would plague him for the rest of his life and set the stage for some real crazy stuff with him

So far so good right? Nope.  Basically, any time he got to feeling scared or anxious or sick(which was pretty often), he'd become very angry and he had no real way to deal with that .. no tools whatsoever. Because maybe I was the oldest male, or because maybe he saw parts of him in me, or maybe just because I was nearby, he began to beat me horribly under the guise of "corrective discipline".  Violence towards me became his Drug of Choice in addition to quart bottles of Pepsi.  After he'd beat me senseless he'd calm down. Maybe he even felt a little high. It seemed like it to me but I was young when it started, a first grader.  In between the beatings he was the kind of man that needed to be in the center of any conversation. He'd suck all the air out of the room. He was very paternal and commanded demanded respect as the head of the family. Sadly, he never earned much of it. My brother and I really didn't like him and I don't think very many people did.   He was also very negative much of the time, critical of everything and everyone. He crossed boundaries like no one I've ever seen. Locked doors where an affront to him and he walked in on my having a sit down most every day.  Why? No idea? Later he crossed the line with my young sister in some pretty despicable ways too.  He was real unpredictable as well. We just never knew when he was gonna blow. At times when everything was just the way he wanted it he actually could be very happy. Say, on a family vacation in the perfect camping spot with good weather he could actually be ecstatic. But look out when we got home on Sunday evening because he was going to have to go back to work. Sunday nights were the worst and more than once I ended up in the ER with broken bones, eardrums and other assorted injuries.  Mainly though he was restless, irritable and discontented and he vacillated between being a decent guy occasionally and a monster most of the time during my entire childhood. As I got older and he got sicker, it became real apparent to me that his main source of pain relief were the beatings and emotional floggings he was administering to me. I realized at a pretty early age that he acted like the drunk parents of my friends -- just without booze.  When he would start in on one of my sibs or on my mother I learned to incite him with my smart mouth so he'd deliver the mayhem to me instead of them. I came to see my role as that of lightening rod -- I'd draw the "heat" so my sibs and Mom could be spared. Hey, I was a "bad kid with no future destined to be a criminal" so why not give them a chance to be OK?  But what really confused me was the way he would talk about our family with other family or friends. To hear him talk we were the damn Waltons! We were happy, loving, carefree and fulfilled souls all.  Not even for a minute!  But this kind of magical thinking and revisionism is picking up speed now that he's 87.  Now, more than ever he's every bit the Dry Drunk.  I know he lives with immense regret and shame - only it's so big that were he to dace it he would die of a broken heart so he's built this immense "Rube Goldberg Contraption" based on lies and falsehoods and pretends he in the December of a remarkably blessed life ... with no friends and no happiness.  I am his only confidant and I can only handle him for a few minutes at a time before I have to get away. 

Or is it something else besides Dry Drunkenness? I suppose that I may be focusing too much on him and I need to remain "unemeshed" but owing to some cosmic practical joke on me, I'm his primary care-giver and advocate and I've got to deal with him almost every day now that's he's seriously ill.  Mind you I am kind and patient and loving almost 100% of the time and I'm showing him what it means to be a tender, caring, gentle and loving person but also one that won't abide by his antics and bad behavior.  I've no doubt that he will never change. But if I can get a handle on what the hell happened to me and how to be with him while he's in my care, I have a chance of turning around a lot of chaos and hurt and having a lovely life.

I welcome your input and if I am looking at this wrong or engaging in some sort of stinking thinking of my own, I'm open to hear it. Thank you all, take good care.

RB

 

 

 



-- Edited by hotrod on Wednesday 23rd of September 2015 09:43:05 PM

__________________
I chose to not mark the plants in my garden preferring instead that they label me.


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 1896
Date:

Hi iShaman,

There are a number of ways to describe that to me, and I'm not any kind of psychiatrist. One thing I hear is that some people are just natural a$$holes, and don't need to get drunk to be that way. And there are a lot of ways that people can become mean, alcohol is just one of them. And denial runs rampant throughout society, drunks and co-alcoholics don't have any kind of corner on the denial market.

Another is your insight that he didn't have any tools. He went through a lot as a child and young man, and in his day/age/geographical region/class, probably didn't have any means of dealing with the things that happened to him. I have heard that, when you ronly thought is to go away from something (vowed to never be a drunk) you can go anywhere else, and the endstate may still be bad, just different.

My dad is the same way as yours in many ways, pretty much just lives without any real self-comprehension or self-evaluation, and was never really trained to, he's a very practical man and can fix ANYTHING, except a relationship. He went to TV repairman school, not relationship school. And he is a teetotaler. He never physically abused me when I was growing up, but we had a pretty dysfunctional life emotionally, since he was so emotionally stunted.

As you have found out personally, untreated PTSD is a horrible thing. I have experience with that with my AW, and it has messed her and our relationship up in a number of ways.

So, I'm not sure what he is, and whether to call him a dry drunk, borderline personality, bipolar, or whatever. The only thing I have come up with my dad is to use a definition of love that another good friend of mine on this board has taught me. That love is the total acceptance of another person as they are. it doesn't mean that we agree with their behavior, or even that we stick around them, but we accept them and don't try to control them. That has been powerful in my life in dealing with my alcoholic wife and my dad.

I think you are on the right path by going to meetings and coming here. I know I have been helped more by Al Anon within a few months then I had by any other therapeutic treatment I have ever been involved with.

I look forward to hearing more from you, keep coming back!

Kenny

__________________


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 11569
Date:

Welcome to MIB RB......boy howdy - that's a ton to read/process but I did want to welcome you.

I can't add any label for your father. What Al-Anon has taught me is to worry about my side of the street and allow others to be themselves.

What I can share is my parents are bot untreated ACOA. They are 80 soon to be 81. We were raised with corporal punishment, and I was the only girl. That didn't matter and I was a rebel without a cause so got my fair share plus of discipline.

I resented them both for years and wondered why they even had me - I was the baby. I ended up with a substance abuse issue, and began recovery almost 28 years ago.

I realized as I worked the recovery steps that they did the best they could with what they knew/had at the time. I made my amends and we've worked to build a good relationship. We don't discuss 'it' any longer - that's not the way they roll. I don't impose uncomfortable conversations on them - I am grateful they gave me life and provided the basics for me. Is our relationship perfect? Nope. Do I still feel bitter? Nope. Do I wonder why things happened as they did? Nope.

I've learned to accept the past for what it is - a point in time that has gone by that I can't change. Does it affect me today? Probably at times. But - the gifts of the program tell me that my HP isn't going to give me more than I can handle and he wants me to be happy, joyous and free.

So - perhaps he is a dry drunk. Perhaps he's PTSD. Perhaps he's ACOA. Perhaps he's .... I'm not into labels much but have learned that I can treat all I interact with lovingly and gracefully while detaching, not taking it personally and setting boundaries.

In the telling of your story, it sounds as if you were abused. I was not (per my standards) so truly can't relate to your pain/background.

Hope this helps - glad you're here!

__________________

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging.  Pause before assuming.  Pause before accusing.  Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret.  ~~~~  Lori Deschene

 

 



~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 5663
Date:

A person who is just generally emotionally stunted, immature, ill tempered, and irritable will look and act just like a dry drunk. There are many reasons a person can wind up like this.

__________________


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 1661
Date:

Sounds like my father, and he isn't nor ever was an alcoholic. It is just the way he is.
I think that I came to realize that there are not always an explanation or label for
everything. I either have the capacity to understand or if not then accept. If the
behavior is unacceptable then I detach and go my separate way, without placing
blame on anyone. It is what it is.



__________________

 "Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it

does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown

Debbie



Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Date:

Kenny, Iamhere, pinkchip and Debb,

Thank you so much. I see a few patterns emerging:

- The label is not so important as the response or lack thereof,
- I'm not alone in this,
- People do the best that they can with what they have to work with.
- Probably I should keep coming back.

All good and great stuff. I'm grateful for each of you taking the time to write.

Randy

__________________
I chose to not mark the plants in my garden preferring instead that they label me.


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 11569
Date:

Randy - we recover together.....that's what makes this program so special! It is through each other than we learn to do different, be true to ourselves and manage our actions, reactions, etc. For me, my peace and serenity come when I am doing the next right thing and that includes a ton of acceptance and a ton of self-care.

Please keep coming back! The journey is awesomely wonderful!

__________________

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging.  Pause before assuming.  Pause before accusing.  Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret.  ~~~~  Lori Deschene

 

 



~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 3613
Date:

Welcome, iShaman - I'm glad you have found us.  What a horrific thing you had to go through.  You are so wise to get so much help and support so that you can heal from these things (as much as is possible) and not pass on the horror.

My thought is that there are certain ways of behaving that are angry, violent, and crazy.  Alcohol is a quick route to those ways.  Not all alcoholics go all the way, but many do.  And many people are disturbed and unbalanced even without the influence of alcohol.  My guess is that your father had his own horrific childhood, maybe combined with a neurological disturbance or head injury, or maybe just one of the three - but a combination would be even worse.  The brain has only so many ways of going wrong and the end results often look like each other even if the path for getting there is different.

Because that's so, I find that the tools of Al-Anon are helpful for dealing with all kinds of difficult people, whether alcohol is behind their difficulty or not. 

I hope you will keep coming back.  Many people have found that there are miracles in store, and there is a seat in the circle for you.



__________________


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 2200
Date:

Welcome iShaman and (((((hugs)))))).

I am glad that you can sense us 'out here' and perhaps get the feeling that we are right there beside you as well. You are not alone.

The thoughts that came to mind as I read your post:

I know a man whose father was an alcoholic and although he never drank in his life he was a difficult father to his sons who, in turn, turned to alcohol later in life.

Thank goodness you have found tools to help you to live the life you deserve. Even posting my stories on these boards has helped me enormously in the past.

Labelling sometimes helped me to understand what we are dealing with, and for me it helps me to focus and spot and turn around the unhelpful, but still real, guilt that I feel about not liking certain behaviours. At the end of the day folks are folks and they are all individual, their lives are theirs.  What I choose to do with the life I've been gifted is all that I need concern myself with.  As Pinkchip said above your father could be struggling with any number of things, some symptoms are quite similar as far as I can tell. The tools we use to protect our own sense of self worth can, thankfully, be found in all sorts of places. I remember learning one of my lessons by watching a fox looking for food in the snow - he did not seem worried about where his next meal was coming from, he just kept looking and seemed gracefully well balanced in the process.  I resolved to behave like that fox for a while!

Some of the feelings that I have had regarding my alcoholic husband are similar to the feelings I had while looking after my lovely ageing mother and I use the lessons I learnt then, i.e. wanting to give but needing to look after myself and to be in good spirits in order to do that. I remember how much better I felt after I had gifted myself a day in the countryside. Some situations are demanding and for me my lesson was to learn how to meet those demands in a way that was healthy for me.

Welcome to MIP Randy, you've described a really difficult journey and it seems to me that you have found ways to rise above some of the consequences. The lessons continue don't they, but we grow wiser in the process (says she hopefully!!).  As I read about your current situation I was struck by how conflicted I would be feeling if I was in the same place. I think that I would, quite naturally, have some pretty difficult thoughts rising to the surface! Thank you for joining us, this is a very special place and it has helped me enormously, especially when I have been in situations where I feel caught up in the lives of others. This wonderful site helps me to remember to centre myself and check, from time to time, that I am making my own choices about what I am/am not comfortable with. I hope that you keep coming back.



-- Edited by milkwood on Wednesday 23rd of September 2015 04:18:04 AM



-- Edited by milkwood on Wednesday 23rd of September 2015 04:22:45 AM

__________________


Newbie

Status: Offline
Posts: 3
Date:

Thank you for being out there and for your support all. Milkwood, Mattie, I'm grateful for your shares. I read something today that really reoriented me to why I even asked this question in the first place: The person that broke you can't be the one to fix you. I realized that I've been thinking I might get some help, maybe even a little closure from my abusive father. I've known at some level for a long time that I wasn't going to get any apologies or even explanations that were going to help me pull myself back together but I have been hoping that at some point I might get to talk with him about my journey and let him know why I am the way I am. Today I've just let go of that. He doesn't have the words, the framework, the perspective or really, even the desire to hear me out about this. He can't. In spite of his brutal behavior he is down deep a really sensitive guy. Maybe too sensitive. He feels things big and that's what causes him to come off the rails as he has absolutely no healthy tools to use to deal with nouns and pronouns that challenge him ... much less feelings. So I'm feeling kind of free and easy at the moment. It's like a weights been lifted. I've been engaging in some pretty fantastical thinking that if I came to really "grok" him ... or decode his Da Vinci code as an Al-Anon friend says, that I might be able to handle his current bad behavior a little better. Nope. All I can do is just really pay attention to my reaction, stay in touch with my higher power and continue to act in a way that's steady and kind to my father and good for me. That's not too hard as long as I don't take his bait. And oh does that man like to chum and toss bait my way. I am finding that the better my life condition the more easily I can just let all his antics slide. I'm going to make it and when my father passes, probably in the not too distant future, I will know I'd been good to him in the winter of his life.

__________________
I chose to not mark the plants in my garden preferring instead that they label me.


~*Service Worker*~

Status: Offline
Posts: 17196
Date:

I have found that keeping all the focus on myself, works best. I can work a 4th - 11th step on any issue, see my part,( usually it is my wanting to understand,"why" or my wanting to figure it all out " instead of simply accepting the tragic facts of the reality of what happened so I can then move toward "forgiveness of both myself and others for past insane,painful actions and reactions.
Forgiveness set me free!!!


Keep working your program You are worth it



__________________
Betty

THE HIGHEST FORM OF WISDOM IS KINDNESS

Talmud
Page 1 of 1  sorted by
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.