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Someone told me to start a new thread on this question so here goes.
I have a question for everyone. This was a fatal question I asked 2 years ago when he left me for the 5th time and we were reconciling and going to meetings. I paid for this for 2 weeks afterward as my question was taken be him as an assault on his AA program which has become almost a religion to him. It is probably the main thing in his life right now. Anyway, my fatal question was " if 2 people have polar oppossite needs, who trumps?" I thought it was a legitimate question as I really really wanted to understand this program and embrace it fully. For God's sake, it was just a question. Well, he ranted and raved and swore at me for daring to criticize his beloved program and I remember sitting in the corner of the car crying thinking , great, now I blew it. Now he may leave again. Talk about walking on eggshells!!! So. people, who gets their way in a situation where both have equal but opposite needs? My friend said that her A would throw his dirty wet towel on her side of the bed every morning. Where is the line drawn between setting boundaries and controlling? She said that if she complains about every little thing then he will see her as a bitch, so she is trying to not let his sloppiness bother her, but I know it is eating her up as she is a very neat clean person.
I said that I would not leave this program of alanon until I understood it. I am that stubborn, and I will not quit. I made a commitment to understand the dynamics of alanon and I don't take comittments lightly.
Thanks for any input. I just love you guys. Thanks, Snoopy
I think the dynamics of both programs are virtually the same. Recovery. And if someone threw their wet towel on my side of the bed every day it would have nothing to do with program, trumps or eggshells. It just means they are a inconsiderate slob.
IMO, It really doesn't have much to do with healing the person's spirit of the ravages of the disease. If it did have anything to do with the disease, it sounds like someone that still has resentment or control issues. It is just common courtesy. Especially if he knows it pisses her off.
Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
The answer to that question for me is neither person's needs trumps the others.
If there is an issue I have with another person and neither of us is willing to budge, it really just comes down to one thing. I have to decide "how important is it" with regards to the issue. If someone is constantly putting their dirty socks on my clean kitchen countertop where I prepare food and I have repeatedly explained why this bothers me (and why it might even be unhealthy,eh?) and yet I get no change in the action I can:
a. do nothing and continue to complain about it b. remove the dirty laundry and clean again - with resentment c. learn to remove the dirty laundry and clean again - without resentment (preferred method) d. make a change in the availabilty of my countertop to this other person.
I get to choose. Now you might think that the "d" choice is a bit drastic, but it comes down to love and respect for me. If they arent willing to meet me on some issues (again issues that I have decided are important enough to me that they need to be dealt with) then we have a problem bigger than just dirty socks on the kitchen counter.
I need to make a change then. I better work my program, do those 12 steps, call my sponsor, read, go to meetings.... I better find out who I am and what I really, really want out of my life. And then set out to make it happen.
My HP wants me to have a happy, joyous and free life. Only I can prevent that from happening. No one else is responsible for my happiness anymore than I am responsible for theirs.
I have to agree with David - it usually comes down to a bigger issue - am I being treated with respect, and do I treat others with respect? If someone I have committed myself to is continuing to do something that they know hurts (or seriously annoys) me, and it is something that they CAN choose not to do, and are just continuing in order to prove a point, or push my buttons, or whatever, then I need to seriously think about WHY I am in this relationship.
I also think that if something about another person really bothers you- the sloppiness one is a good example - you need to eventually decide just how important it is to you. YOU are the one who decideds what makes a deal breaker, in a relationship. If you really feel that you cannot live with a person who throws dirty towels around, then you should not be living with such a person. It really is that simple - you decide how much it matters to you, and either let it go, or move on.
if only the world would remember the fine art of common courtesy and etiquette. it has been lost in the world of instant gratification. as all of us in recovery know, time cannot be manipulated. time. time to learn. time to grow. time to mature. time to teach and be taught these little courtesies that can be (perhaps) a joyous part of a partnership/relationship. i believe, with all the changes throughout the last century, we've gained a great amount of tools and knowledge, at the expense of some of our understanding of family bonds, courting, etc.
great topic, thanks for the input/output!!! with love cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
I think I see what you are getting at here, and I think I have a comparable situation.
I have a clear need to discuss with my husband some of the things that he did or said while drinking. He needs to leave it all in the past, and that is a place I cannot get to until after I meet the need of discussion. There are things that I cannot get from a program or a group, answers to questions that only he can provide. So I find myself wondering the same thing, who trumps who? I don't think I have the right to force discussions, especially if it is something emotionally charged enough that his feelings would jeopordize his sobriety. But where does that leave me? Swallowing my feelings? Building up new resentments? It is frustrating, for sure, but I just keep praying. I believe that someday the answers will come.
i know that exact feeling... i tried to force a discussion on what love meant to her. "why can't we speak plainly about what has happened and why?" as she is still in denial, i have no answers, and have to look at the possibility that i will never have answers from her. then i ask myself, why do i need to ask why? Ack!!! do i let go, and Let God??
with love cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
I never thought about needs "trumping eachother". I always thought about the keys of compromise. I think the thing that might be missing from your post is specifically what your needs are. Part of the reason no one ever graduates from this program is because it is a process of living program--our needs are always gonna change. Our feelings about a situation are gonna change.
The idea that someone's feelings however are more valid than another person's feelings is dangerous territory. What's being said there is, really, I'm a martyr because of your crises. The 4 M's are big here. Because I can't handle my feelings, you have to handle them for me. You caused them, after all.
This would be a good sponsorship question. This would be a good inventory question.
i agree with what has been said. how important is it. i also am a firm believer that life is not fair. and sometime attention needs to be more focused on the crisis at hand. life is a journey and going on a car trip with no views or hills gets boring and is unrealistic. this program is teaching me how to take care of myself first and foremost. i have learned to "think it thru" and make my decisions without expectations. so, if i ask a question, and my motive is pure (for me, that is simply to find an answer, not to provoke the other person into an emotion or argument or guilt) then i know i can deal with the answer even if it's not what i wanted to hear or expected. for me this is a program of self discovery and that is a gift. there is no other place in my life i have been able to be so safe and encouraged in examining my life. keep comming back even after you get it. because the ones that get it are able to give it away to those of us who need it.
You know, the more I think about this, the more I dislike the idea of 'trumping' in relationships. It just doesn't work that way, or shouldn't.
In a healthy relationship, it would mostly work that the person who cares most about a particular point gets his/her way, on that point. Emotonally healthy people, who care about each other, would achieve a rough equality this way - each gives way on things that are important to the partner, and not as important to themselves. In the rare cases of true conflict, they would work towards something that everyone could live with. Sometimes they would have to 'agree to disagree' and accept that on this subject, no solution is possible, and that they can live with this. Or, if necessary, they would realize that the conflict is too central to get around, and agree to part.
Things are somewhat different with us, as one or both of the partners are NOT emotionally healthy. The disease distorts all give and take in the relationship, because for the addict, the addiction is always the most important thing, and must, from his point of view, "trump" all else. It sems to me that if we want to have a relationship with an alcoholic, we have to realize this, and just do the best we can with an imperfect situation.
To me, this means that *I* work on keeping a rough justice in the relationship as it pertains to me. I need to give way on things that are not central, to me, and I need to stand my ground on the important things. There is no point in looking for fairness, as the A may or may not be playing his part in this, but ultimately it doesn't matter what he does. I need to be a reasonable and fair person for my own sake. If I find that living like this fills me with resentment, then I have the choice of releasing the resentment, or of not living this way anymore. I do not have the choice of enforcing fairness on my partner.
To me the common goal of both programs is: RECOVERY. It's not about one trumps the other. It's not about winning.
As for behaviors that drive me crazy. Well.... I'm not exactly sane. My husband and I are the best of friends as well as husband and wife. We are partners. It's 100% and 100%. Yes there are days when it might be 75% & 45%. But who cares? Yes there are things that drive me crazy about him, but hey, I'm no saint either. (darn here I thought I was perfect! ummm... guess I better rework my steps then huh?) He gets very grumpy when he is sick. Right now his meds are a bit off because they are working to take some away and increase others. I almost bit his head off last night when I came home from work because he bit mine off. But I have to remember to count to 10 or sometimes 20, and ask myself: "What's the point? Is it that important?" 15 minutes later, he apologized to me.
I try and remember how far we've come. 2 years ago or even a year ago I wasn't convinced that we were going to make it. I remind myself of those days when he didn't care what happened to himself, lone enough me. So he forgets to put the dish in the sink. Don't care. 2 years ago I was lucky if he found the sink. So I don't stay up on my filing as much as I'd like. Know what, he says my slightly messy way is good for his OCD. He's learning to live with it. We're not slobs by any means, but there are certain things we like to get done. We keep the lines of cummunication open on the important things. If I have said something to him that bothers him, he lets me know.
I think if people honestly respect each other, love each other and laugh with each other, than there is nothing can't overcome. We have some tough hurdles ahead of us this year, with his upcoming surgery. The little things such as a dirty dish or whatever, just aren't that important to us anymore. We always no matter what kiss each other goodnight and tell each other we love each other. Because one never knows what's around the corner.
This journey we are on isn't about winning, losing, trumping one another, being on top. It's about living. Not gonna get bogged down with other things. If the winds of change come our way, I can either go against or set my sails in to go with it. The choice is ours to make.
Love and blessings to you and your family.
Live strong,
Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
IMO No one trumps... I agree with the statement "How Importian is it" Who needs are more importain then the others....
Since I was a child growing up in alcoholic family I was thrown in the corner and everyone else needs were met but MINE... When I was a teenager the same but slightly different I started taking care of everyone elses needs it just about killed me..... When I got married I took care of my Hubbys and then later my childrens needs so by the time i came here to this program I thought it was my duty to take care of everyones here needs untill I was told very stronghly over and over again that this Program was for ME and MY NEEDS !!!!!! I just wanted to cry cause wait aren't I supposed to take care of someone and not ME!!!!!
My husband is NOT in a program acturally NONE OF MY FAMILY IS IN RECOVERY so really I am getting my needs met for me!!!! What they do or think about me is none of my buisness!!!!
If my family or husband was in a program then I would respect there right to there program and keep the focus on ME....
Al-anon is my way of life it is what has helped me recovery and grow and come this far in life!!!!
No, it is not about being "right" or winning, so maybe "trump" is the wrong word to use. However, that still leaves the question... whose needs are met?
There are things that I will have to discuss before I can leave them in the past, that is just the way it is. Until I get that, I am just going through the motions.
The how important is it question is a great question for toilet seats and dirty socks.... But I don't think it applies to everything.
I think the question really comes down to this... How do we find the way to meet the needs of both parties?
No, it is not about being "right" or winning, so maybe "trump" is the wrong word to use. However, that still leaves the question... whose needs are met?
There are things that I will have to discuss before I can leave them in the past, that is just the way it is. Until I get that, I am just going through the motions.
The how important is it question is a great question for toilet seats and dirty socks.... But I don't think it applies to everything.
I think the question really comes down to this... How do we find the way to meet the needs of both parties?
Excellent post!!! You said it much better than I ever could have. Especially the last sentence. Now, if only someone could answer this.
I think it is called negotiation. Not your piece of the pie but expanding each person's piece of the pie. Your situation with your A sounds a little like mine. He threatened to leave for 30 years and then left. He threatened divorce for 30 years and hasn't filed. You don't win with A's. I have found that they do not negotiate period. If you get what you want then you will pay a price. Just my thougths.
My husband and I are the best of friends as well as husband and wife. We are partners. It's 100% and 100%. Yes there are days when it might be 75% & 45%. But who cares? Yes there are things that drive me crazy about him, but hey, I'm no saint either. (darn here I thought I was perfect! ummm... guess I better rework my steps then huh?) He gets very grumpy when he is sick. Right now his meds are a bit off because they are working to take some away and increase others. I almost bit his head off last night when I came home from work because he bit mine off. But I have to remember to count to 10 or sometimes 20, and ask myself: "What's the point? Is it that important?" 15 minutes later, he apologized to me.