(((Snoopy)))

Honey people like this do exist--I just don't think there are many of them left anymore!  My dad is one of them.  Now my mom never worked outside the home and he couldn't have ever worked inside the home (this is evident now that he is retired--they have white walls in their house and he cringes when he sees my kids getting marks on them).  They had a mutual respect of each other.  (MY sisters and I told them they really did us a disservice, b/c we never once saw them argue--I really am not exaggerating.)  They are human and each one of them gets on each other's nerves now and again ( more now that they are both at home) and neither of them is perfect, but the love and respect they show each other is incredible.  I do believe each and everyone is worthy of that kind of love and respect when they are trying hard to love and respect too!!

Stay strong and Be Happy!!!  Keep up those standards and you won't be treated badly again.  I'm working on raising my standards too--I'm still married, but now I'm a more verbal about what I expect and what and need from him.

Keep working the program!

Dawn

snoopy wrote:

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CJ wrote:

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well said, Kis, i think we are all on the same boat about not living in physical fear."
(((((roomies)))))

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I just thought of something to add.  Physical fear is horrendous, but sometimes the manipulation, lies, and messing with your head, or emotional and verbal abuse is just as important in the abuse realm.  A life of having to walk on eggshells so as not to provoke the abuser is no life really at all.  Yes, we address physical abuse, that is really a no-brainer, but what about the other kinds of abuse that do not send you to the emergency room every week?  What about the mind games, the lies, the manipulation, the controlling, the dismissal and snotty, sarcastic, cruel words?  In the Jan 3 alanon book it talks about the disease of alcoholism and how it is a sickness and not something they asked for.  It seems it is alot about excusing cruel behavior.  Sorry, I don't buy it.  We teach people how to treat us, and no alanon book is going to tell me that verbal and emotional abuse is not just as bad.  Keeping victims down is sometimes done with words and I know I was just as scared when he would use those tactics as when he threw me around.  Just one physical attack is all that is really needed, as you know what will happen again if you don't comply.  Sometimes I think that the alanon books want us to walk on eggshells just to keep the peace.  Oh, I wish I could understand better. Please help me.

Thanks, snoopy

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I don't believe it is about excusing their behavior. It is simply explaining to us where that behavior comes from...the sickness. That does NOT mean we have to put up with it or condone it. Prior to Al-Anon, my A was verbally abusive. I would feed right into that too by engaging in the argument or reacting in some way whether that reaction be anger, fear, crying. ANY kind of abuse is bad.

I learned I could walk away. That I didn't have to listen to the verbal abuse. I learned I could say "sorry you feel that way" or "I don't deserve this and don't need to listen to this". Let me emphasize though, I was NOT in danger of being physically abused. I suppose this is why I emphasized in my other post that those in danger of physical abuse need to first be in a safe place for Al-Anon to really work. If a person is in a place where the only way to keep the peace and not end up in the hospital or worse is to continue taking the abuse...well what good is that? No one should have to be in a situation like that. No one deserves that. And Al-Anon certainly does not tell us to accept that. Al-Anon is about reclaiming our lives.

Much love, Kis

CJ wrote:

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((snoopy))

i don't believe we teach them how to treat us.  i've never been treated like that in my life until i met my A... no.. not even when i met her.. after we were married.. she adored me, loved me, romanced with me... then the manipulation and lies started...

cj

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Same here.  I had never been treated badly or had to witness it in my home growing up either.  That is why I think it baffled me so much.  I just couldn't understand why it was happening and why it couldn't be a normal home.  Of course, the flowers, attention showered and the promises that it would never happen again influenced me greatly.  I really did want this marriage to work and kept my pain hidden from the world. Will I ever stop crying?  I just feel so alone.  I know I have to accept as my therapist said about my husband, that you can't give away what you don't carry inside.  Yet--let me quote a card with a gift certificate to a Bed & Breakfast hotel he gave me about a year ago.

Dear Diane: I love you so much.  I want to be the light of your life forever. I want you to "hug" me and I want to always take care of you.  I am so glad we are together.  I will be yours forever. Love always, Loren. PS let's have a wonderful night at the B & B. Your light, Loren.The card itself said, "sealed with a kiss, sent with love. Merry Christmas to my Wonderful Wife" underlined. 

Put me on a pedestal and then throw me in the gutter. Time after time after time again.

 

 

((((Lunamoth))))

I reconsider that there is learned behavior.  I am not saying that it doesn't happen like that, or that I'm in any way a martyr.  I've worked hard all my life and worked hard to become a mature man.  There was, indeed, many behaviors in my wife that were unacceptable, morally and ethically bankrupt, and even some against the law.  I did not keep a secret what was acceptable to me, or the 'code of conduct' I tried to lead by example.  She just flat out held me in a state of rebellion; from what I have learned, I'm not the only one who has had a spouse/partner addict that every living second was about "me me me me me me me".  Of course I am not perfect.  Of course I have a laundry list of defects of character.  Of course I need to work on me.  But I'll say with sound mind, that the bad behaviors weren't merely tolerated.

On the flipflop side, I think there are things that I did tolerate that my wife used as grounds for permission.  I also do see your point that not speaking up or speaking your mind can and does enable that bad behavior.  I'd also, of course, like to think that I had nooooo part in enabling, but seeing what truths I do, now, I can be sure that I did my share, whether I can look back and see it or not.

Is that a clearer picture of where I was coming from? or am I still mucky??
much love, always
cj

-- Edited by CJ at 00:38, 2007-01-05

WWWWWWOOOOOOOWWWWWWW,

this is some before bedtime reading.

i love the drama, who was it that said   "All the world is a stage"?

can i thank you all again for being part of my recovery?

much learned and absorbed  by the reading of your posts.

thanks again so very much for sharing your experience, strength and hope.

blessings,

jewely

mel123 wrote:

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Obviously, a good post, snoopy!  Just remember everyone, let's not judge unless we are willing to be judged!  As far as abuse goes, whether physical or verbal, no one should have to endure or take it!  Time to end the victim mentality!!!  No more!

God Bless,

mel123

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Thanks mel, I totally agree, time to end the victim mentality.  It sneaks up on you so subtly tho, that I didn't even know that the victim mentality had ahold of me.  I wanted to believe that this crap would never happen again, and every time we had it out about issues, I thought good--now we've got this out of the way, he will never do that again, but it was always something else. I have come to the conclusion that if it don't come easy, better let it go.  If there are issues and you want to change someone in the beginning, it won't work out, and to just move on.  Life is too short to be sparring about every little thing. 

I have a question for everyone.  This was a fatal question I asked 2 years ago when he left me for the 5th time and we were reconciling and going to meetings.  I paid for this for 2 weeks afterward as my question was taken be him as an assault on his AA program which has become almost a religion to him.  It is probably the main thing in his life right now.  Anyway, my fatal question was " if 2 people have polar oppossite needs, who trumps?" I thought it was a legitimate question as I really really wanted to understand this program and embrace it fully.  For God's sake, it was just a question.  Well, he ranted and raved and swore at me for daring to criticize his beloved program and I remember sitting in the corner of the car crying thinking , great, now I blew it.  Now he may leave again.  Talk about walking on eggshells!!! So. people, who gets their way in a situation where both have equal but opposite needs?  My friend said that her A would throw his dirty wet towel on her side of the bed every morning. Where is the line drawn between setting boundaries and controlling? She said that if she complains about every little thing then he will see her as a bitch, so she is trying to not let his sloppiness bother her, but I know it is eating her up as she is a very neat clean person. 

I said that I would not leave this program of alanon until I understood it.  I am that stubborn, and I will not quit. I made a commitment to understand the dynamics of alanon and I don't take comittments lightly. 

Thanks for any input. I just love you guys.  Thanks, Snoopy

 

To be honest with you I would like to talk to this guys wife .     And why does anyone have to lead anyway ???  Louise