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Hi - I haven't posted for a long time, but here I am again. I have these questions and I simply can't figure out the answers. I hope I can phrase them correctly to get across what I really need to say.
First of all, I know I can't live with this man forever, and I also know that he's not going to change. He is not only an alcoholic, but he has all the signs of also having Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder and that is a double whammy or what could be considered co-morbid (I guess). I believe, because of this disorder, that he does everything in a pattern, including drinking. Drinking is from 7:00 p.m. until 10:00 p.m. every night. Some nights it's half a large bottle of whiskey - others it could be a whole bottle. He works every day and never misses a day. I've been with him 11 years and he's probably had about 7 sick days in 11 years. He even had whooping cough and pneumonia for 3 months and he still never missed a day of work. He feels that this gives him a license to drink, bash other people, and in turn means that if he can go to work suffering every day, that no one else can EVER have anything to complain about (not even a sprained ankle).
Whenever the topic comes up about him getting help, he always turns it around and says that everyone else needs help and he name calls and emotional blackmails and all kinds of retort, but it is never about his need to change. It is always about how if everyone would just leave him alone, or do what HE thinks they should be doing, he wouldn't have any problems. It's always been everyone else's fault that he drinks too much, etc.
At one time, I took it to heart. I know I'm not perfect and I know my faults. We fight constantly, because I have to defend myself and all of my family and friends who he constantly bashes. If I back away, and just leave the room, he gets suspicious that I've got something up my sleeve, which is never the case. I feel that as long as I am fighting, at least he is somehow appeased that he gets to do more bashing. If I were to just ignore him, I would feel worried that he might do something, but I don't know what that would be. I feel caught in this trap of not knowing what to do.
He thinks that we will be together forever, and I'm getting my mind around leaving. Does this make sense that I am afraid to leave him (he's threatened so many things - none of them life threatening, but more like just things he will tell people about me to make me look bad in their eyes, etc.). He can turn things in any direction that he wants. He can make people believe anything he wants them to, and he's proven it to me, already. I've been the step-mom to his 3 daughters for 11 years, and he could tell them all of these horrible things about me (which stem from something truthful, but turned around into something nasty) and have them hating me in minutes, he can be so believable. If I've ever complained about something they've done that I disagreed with and discussed with him, he'll turn it around and tell them that I bashed them all the time, or whatever he wants, which wouldn't be the truth at all.
Since I know this is the beginning of the end, I'm preparing myself for all of this, and I stand up for myself completely, without fear of however he may react or what he will threaten that he knows would hurt me. He's hurt me so much, my feelings are dead for him. The last fight we had, I told him for the first time that I didn't love him anymore, but he didn't pay attention and just thought that it was an angry moment. Like I said, I don't love him anymore, precisely because my feelings have died. I'm a miserable person now and on disability. I've realized that a huge part of my illness may stem from the fact that I have become so hypervigilant that I don't sleep soundly, and with no sleep, I suffer from Chronic Fatigue.
My questions are:
Why do I feel so terrible, now that I've resigned myself to the fact that he will never get help to change (as long as I'm in the picture anyway) and I can't live with him indefinitely, because nothing ever changes; I feel so bad, when he shows realization that I mean what I am saying, when he leaves the room and goes upstairs, in kind of a defeated manner (just because he hasn't broken me down - like he usually always does). Why do I feel guilty, as though I've hurt this little boy, and somehow I should go to him and try to make it all better?
When he is ranting, he always says things like I'm 'no good for nuthin' and that I couldn't survive without him (although somehow I seemed to all the years before I met him) and I feel fearful that all the things he's done to insulate me into his world will be gone, and I will not be able to survive after all, yet part of me feels stronger than ever. This is a very confusing thought and although I can't live with him, I'm almost afraid of living without him. In some of his drunken moments, he would try to come up with an escape plan with me (were we invaded by terrorists - or whatever) and he would go over and over it with me (as though if I didn't stay with him, that I wouldn't be saved). While I think it's wise to be prepared for anything, it's scary to live your life as though you have to be at attention, every waking moment. That is what he does with me. Sometimes I feel as though I'm suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder - yet the stress never ends. Everything has to be perfect on the outside - the house, how we appear to the neighbours, etc., but he never has to look on the inside. We never have time to stop and smell the roses. Life is a constant vigil, with no relief. No wonder I can't sleep soundly, unless I take a sleeping pill.
And lastly, as I said, I know I have faults and fears and worries and I'm actually a little afraid to have to face myself, because I've spent so long 'catering' to his whims, etc. and because it's all about him, his drinking time, his issues. I've totally neglected myself. Some days I don't even look in the mirror and I've gained 50 pounds since I met him. Before that, I took good care of myself and really cared about who I was. I'm afraid I don't care enough about myself anymore, and I'm not sure I'm going to get that back, even when we are apart. The only good thing is that I refuse to believe that I am the root cause of why he is the way he is. I KNOW I'm not responsible for who he is or what he has become. Other than that - I'm not really sure of much anymore, except that I have to get out of this. I want to do it on good terms, but how do I remain strong with the tough love without making him angry or turn into the little boy who feels sorry for himself? It's either one, or the other.
I've tried forgiveness a thousand times, but how can you forgive someone who never stops saying or doing the hurtful things. I don't have the energy to go around the circle anymore and end up in the same place, every time.
I am just going to give you what I get out of this.Does not mean it is true ok?
For one, I see a lot about him and what he is doing. Keep it simple, I would not watch what he does anymore. I cannot control him. I cannot analize behavior that is not normal. He is very, very sick in his disease.
We can do nothing about it, in fact he is going to get much worse.
This is why we must take care of us. The disease is pulling you in big time. Hon you are so sick.
I believe you feel bad becuz besides the man you love not being there anymore, you are also losing your dream. You made vows and you meant them. Plus this is familiar to you. Leaving is a completely new path.
A horse will run right back into a burning barn as it is familiar.
When the A spews stuff at you, it is just a nasty sick brain talking to you. Who cares what it thinks, besides it is just using you to get stimulation. It likes getting you upset.
I would not give it the pleasure.
It sounds like you have been sucked dry by giving to the disease. We teach others how to treat us. I would not allow anyone to treat me bad again. Not even one time. We get so mixed up in the A's mess.
Keep coming back. I hope you get the courage to change. much love,debilyn
Hello hadenough , well your life has been affected by someone elses drinking , you say u looked after yourself for yrs , but are afraid he may be right < I can relate to that when we live for someone else we loose our selves , our self esteem our self worth goes slowly until there is nothing left but fear . It is a form of control and it works .
A's in recovery call this disease cunning baffling and powerful and all u need to know is that Alcoholism happened to you and u too need to recover . Please find meetings for yourself it will h elp u understand what is really goin on , forget everything u think you know about alcohoism . What matters is how this is affecting you.
Dont waste your life trying to figure him out , find out why u allow the things u do . Far more productive , you are the only one that you have any control over there is nothing u can do about him . Your not the reason he drinks , regardless of what he says . Were simply not that powerful if we were we could make them stop.
Get your life back on track , focus on your own needs for a change and find you again . good luck Louise
FYI: My brother is an alcoholic/drug addict. He also is OCD, and Borderline Personality Disorder. No matter what we (everyone in my family and my brother's best friend) did, we were never able to help my brother. My brother never sought help. There were several times when he was thrown into the psych ward when his drinking/using caused him to become violent or crazy in public - but he was always smart enough to make the doctors believe he was "OK" enough to leave.
My mother felt a lot like you. She wanted to make a change, but felt like she couldn't. The emotional bondage my brother placed my mother under caused her to attempt suicide.
IMHO: It sounds like you being held in emotional bondage. You said it: he is not going to change while you are there. The fact that you've acknowledged that you need to make a change is a HUGE step.
Remember - you cannot control how he acts or reacts. You can't stop him from becoming angry or turning into the hurt little boy when you begin any type of change and begin your recovery and focus on your own health and well being. IMHO, he will do everything in his power (making you feel even more guilt) to prevent you from making any change.
I agree with you. He is very strong. He controls his own behaviors and yours with his threats and his constant self-deprecating statements. This is how (IMHO) he has put you in emotional bondage - where you are paralyzed with guilt/fear.
Guilt is the fear of not living up to another person's expectations. The key is fear. As long as you are afraid of standing up for yourself and working on your own recovery, you'll be paralyzed by fear/guilt. When you start working on recovery - you'll be able to work through the guilt (you'll still feel it - but you'll be working through it without giving in to it).
I hope you find the strength to begin your own recovery - and can continue in your recovery (whether you stay with him - or leave him) so you can work on healing you.
Hello enuff, glad you're here. One of the things I've learned over the few years I've been here--and there's more than a few professionals that agree with me--is that it's darn near impossible to analyze an alcholic for any out side psychological issues so long as they continue drinking. Because they're using and abusing, the alchol and drugs completely block out the majority of brain functions, and any "higer functions" the ones that would show up with stuff like OCD or depression are just totally gone. Now, this doesn't mean you're wrong! In fact, you could be dead eye bulls eye! But at the same time, until he quits drinking for more than 72 hours, no certified profesional is going to sign their name to a diagnosis. So, to me, if a professional isn't going to sign their name to an insane drunk person, I'm not either.
Now, for your questions.
An oldtimer in Al Anon once said that you can pack up your stuff and leave. She'd done it before her husband got sober and a few times after word. It never meant she didn't love her husband, that she was filing for divorce, or that she was completely quitting her marriage. It simply meant that, at this time, she was unable to live with her husband as he was. Now, if this sounds like where you're at, we here on the board, in the chat room, and in local regular al anon meetings will support you in whatever you choose to do. All we want for you is to be happy safe and free within your heart.
Do you remember how I said that professionals don't evaluate alcholics for mental illness after 72 hours? The reason is that 72 hours is the standard time of detox--it takes approximately that amount of time for at least 50% of the alchol to "burn off" of the system. Well, when your husband is drunk, hung over, whatever, his brain is hijacked--taken hostage, if you will. There's no way for his brain to think higher than where he's at, because, like the huge mack track blocking all the lanes on the interstate, his brain is blocked full of alchol. If your husband had at least 72 hours of dry time, he'd be mean, but out of his own misery. He'd also have enough sense not to take you on!
As to facing yourself: in al anon, we work the 12 steps with a sponsor. Someone who has worked the steps before us, is continuing to work the steps, is continuing to apply the steps in their lives, and is attempting at their absolute best to apply what they've learned in Al Anon to their every day lives. You would never face the journey of recovery alone so long as you were working with a sponsor, were honest with your sponsor, and were willing to put 100% into your recovery. We know first hand how scary recovery can be! But here's what I heard in a lead last night about sponsorship and living in the moment: If you're driving down a country road that's unlit late at night, think of your sponsor as your friend sitting in the passenger seat next to you, holding the map and the coffee: you have someone to ride with you on this un lit country road; you have someone that at least has a map (and a general sense about how to read it!); and they have the coffee so if you get burned out, burned up, or freaked out, they can switch you seats and you can talk about it. One last thought, and this is for everyone, it is always better to have a sponsor and not need them, than need them and not have them.
First, you asked why you feel guilty, it's because you are a human being and have compassion. And also I think because you know it is the disease you are fighting with and not actually him. Sometimes it's almost like they are the one's caught in the middle.....at least in my experience.
It is hard to be put down and, as I like to say, be emotionaly assassinated by them. They say these things to us because of how they feel about themselves. Their self esteem is low and when they lash out and put others down it makes them feel better, and alot of it I beleive in indirectly aimed at themselves.
And finally, how can you remain strong? By taking care of you and not worrying about how he will react to the boundaries you have set. You are not responsible for his feelings.....he is. So let him deal with the natural consequences of his behavior and you concentrate on what you need to do for yourself. It is hard, but like anything we continue doing, it gets easier and easier each time we put it into practice.
And you can forgive him, just remember it is not "him" but the disease causing the chaos. I know it helped me immensely (sp) when I seperated my A/addict from the disease. He was still there, somewhere, but the disease had taken over. And when I started behaving differently he did, and for this I am very grateful for since I know for some, this is not always the case.
I can relate so well to what you are saying and asking!! I was in a marriage for 5 years that was like that, but I can't blame my husband's behavior on alcohol. He didn't touch the stuff--I simply say in a kind way he was just plain "nuts"! I was afraid to leave even though he wouldn't let me see my family, trashed me and my family and friends all of the time. He was always right no one else in the whole world was as right as he was. He had no respect for me what so ever. I kept trying to work things out. I stopped fighting--I let him rant and rave about everyone b/c I knew it wouldn't do any good to defend me or anyone else. This usually would end up with him getting physical with me b/c it irritated him that I refused to speak to him during these times. I kept telling him I couldn't live that way forever and things needed to change. He thought I was so helpless though that I would never leave. He was wrong. I was scared and I had no idea how I was going to manage, but I left. Then he was so shocked he would say "But this isn't what I want" and I would reply "well it's not about you anymore. I already tried that and that didn't work."
In leaving him I lost all of my friends. I don't have a single one left. That makes me sad to know that they did not know me well enough to know that what he spoke to them were lies and they believe that I am so wrong that in their opinions I will go to Hell. But there just had to come a time that I had to leave. I couldn't be there anymore. My kids had little to no respect for me--why should they, they were shown they didn't have to. He has ought and fought me trying to get my kids away from me. (My HP worked wonders for me this year by transferring my ex to India for 9 months--things have been so peaceful and nice here!!!!)
Even though I lost my friends I know what I did was right. I have amazed myself!!! I can take care of myself and I have proven that even more by doing impossible things (I thought) in my life with my AH.
You feel scared and guilty b/c our codependency reaks havoc in our head. Even though we KNOW we are worth something (a great amount) hearing day after day that we are worhtless or helpless still puts doubts in our heads. You will decide when it is time for you to go. When you have the strength you will be surprised at what you can do.
As far as taking care of yourself physically (the pounds you have put on)--you will eventually work on that. Don't be too hard on yourself!!! Weight is so easy to gain and so hard to get off, but just try to make healthy changes and the better you start to feel the more you will want to do for yourself!
I am praying for you. I wish for you comfort and peace and strength. Remember you are wonderful!!!!!
Thank you for that honest share. I feel for you and the tight situation you are in. If your A has not been diagnosed with OCD it may not be OCD, but could be a combination of things. Either way you are dealing with dual diagnosis of A'ism. He almost sounds paranoid. Its too bad as the mind begins to play tricks on us. I felt the sense of defeat and urgency in your post. Only you can make the decision to end that madness for yourself and begin to give back to you what you so graciously gave your A at one time. I can empathize with this as my undying devotion to my A caused me a great deal of stress. I ended up gaining weight and losing me. I got disgusted with myself enough to "dethrone" him and announced it to him that I no longer wished to put him on a pedastel because I'm supposed to be on that pedastel. He didn't like that at first. He got scared. Scared that I'd stopped loving him, scared that I'd take the kids and leave him. My A is sober now and growing, but he still has a great deal of insecurities. He often projects his thoughts and feelings on others, or "mind reads" what others are "really" thinking. I have let him have those thoughts because nothing I say at time will help.
For you... focus on you, your recovery, the changes you want to make. It may mean that others will not take kindly to your efforts of putting you back together and getting healthy, but so what. Its your life... you've earned the right to be here on earth and you are the only one who can make the necessary changes to suit your needs, hopes, and dreams. Try to keep that in mind while your A is spinning your words around and playing those manipulation mind games. If he does have mental health, he may never recover... and that is truly sad. You do not have to suffer because of his problems, it is self-preservation, not abandonment. Keep posting we are here for you.
Peace,
Twinmom~
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"The people who don't mind matter and the people who mind, don't matter". (Dr. Seuss)
I am sitting her absolutely speechless at your gift of expressing such complex emotions so eloquently.
You have described my feelings and emotions and my LIFE to a "T".
My husband and yours could be twins. I am just baffled. Everything you say you go through, he says, does, you feel, your life, your emotions, your fears, your thoughts, I FEEL and LIVE too. The only thing different is that my husband helped raise MY daughter, he had no ex wife or children, and we have been married 13 years.
EVERYTHING else is the exact same, I can't get over the similarities.
Please keep posting, I am so glad you are here to put these feelings into words and help others to also. Sometimes for me the pain is so deep, the fear so real, that I try to forget it, you are giving me strengh to face them and deal with them. Thank you!
I can give you one piece of information that can be helpful. My husband went into the army and got into trouble getting along with people, being the severe and chronic alcholic that he is. Thank goodness because they admitted him to the closed psych ward for observation and he could get no alcohol. There were able to diagnose him with "Borderline Personality Disorder". Look it up...you will be amazed....it describes "our" husbands to a "T" from what you write. Many BPD sufferers display symptoms of OCD, and many have "Narcissism" as well. Look that up too. There are some great books on it.
It will really be eye opening for you I am sure.
Lets keep in touch, we are in the same place. I too want to leave, but also feel somewhat paralyzed by my fears of managing without him in a practical sense...sigh.
I still don't know how they can be so sick and still manage to be so "high functioning" as far as bringing in a paycheck is concerned.
I hear everything that you are saying and first of all, let me start by saying that I am sorry for the pain you are experiencing.
By nature, the disease of addiction is obsessive-compulsive. We obsess of using, trying to control our using, find ways and means to control those around us and the compulsion is using even though we know the consequences.
When I left my husband, i also wasnted to do it on friendly terms and be "nice" about it. I soon realized that that wouldn't happen. He felt hurt, abandoned and angry and was full of fear. I also came to realize that I couldn' worry about how he handled it, I had to do what was best for me. I also had quit taking care of myself and when I started recovery it was a process. I didn't get in this shape (figuartively or literally) over night and I wasn't going to bounce back to normal in a short period of time. I remember never getting a good night sleep without a sleeping pill because I had to be alert and awake for any noise that night indicate he was using. In the process of trying to monitor and control him, I made myself sick. I also became addicted to sleeping pills and nerve pills.
While I was away from my husband he began using even more. I wasn't around to have to deal with it, but my plan was that he would be so heart broken he would stop everything and get help. Again, my way of trying to manipulate him and the situation. When I finally came back home I realize he had completely spiraled out of control. Within a few weeks of my return he had hit his bottom and reached out for help. He is now in a 12 step program and doing well. What I realized was that by trying to have power over him and his addiction, I was preventing the very crisis that eventually allowed him to seek help.
Yes, my husband thought that his using was everyone else's fault. Everything was everyone else's fault. His picking on me and other family members was his was of deflecting the attention away from him and what he was doing. He was very confused and frightened when I quit fighting back and defending myself and everyone else. When I truly detached and he realized he was no longer my HP our relationship had a chance to grow.
This is just my expereince. I don't know if it's helpful to you or not, but I pray for serenity and comfort for you.
