Something sounds selfish about this... - Al-Anon Family Group

Diva · ~*Service Worker*~

Something sounds selfish about this...

laurab · Senior Member

Diva

I am so struggling with detach with love that you got me thinking. When one of my children screws up and needs help, I think it's ok to be there for him, and offer whatever help and advise you can, still allow the child to have consequences. However, when the child is an A, the screwing up happens over and over, and if the mother is an enabling queen like me, the help stops helping, I think. How will he ever stop drinking if he doesn't connect the misery that he causes for himself and those who love him with drinking.

My question at my 3rd week of trying to detach, is will he ever make the connection? I have tried to make it for him so many times as he crashes cars, loses his wife and house and job, but he still turns to alcohol to hide from himself and the chaos he causes.

I live in fear of what I will feel like when he next needs something and I have to say no.

Laura

rtexas · ~*Service Worker*~

((((Diva))))

I am not sure if I see enough details to know exactly what I would do. But, I do believe that this program helps me to be true with my own reality. I hope to be comfortable and trust my decissions again without being overly introspective to make sure I am not lying to myself or letting pure emotion overshadow what "I" want to do to handle this situation.

I would never leave a toddler in a room full of glass to teach him the lesson of don't throw your lamp on the floor or you will get cut. That is an extreme case. But here's a real one that I don't feel bad about at all.

My 21 year old ASon is doing very good right now. Taking care of himself working and going to college. He has no extra money... but, he's covering his bills and honestly doesn't make much more than that. His truck broke down and I fixed it. Not a single regret.

Did he waste enough money to fix it himself... yea, probably. But I had the money, and he is doing well in his college courses. I wanted him to get there and keep it going. Don't feel bad about it at all.

I don't know if this is at all what you are talking about. But I bet you will tell us. LOL

I love your posts, keep on rambling!

Take care of you!

Tiger2006 · ~*Service Worker*~

Diva, any time I think of "let go let god" "detachment" et cetera et cetera, I feel so selfish. It's like "Do you want fries with that?" After all, we're really being asked to let this person go head to head with themselves as they really are, not as they think they are, and wow...OUCH.

I didn't realize how much **I** resented being "protected" until I had a procedure involving light anesthesia. Of course, me, anesthesia, I was, to say the least, out in left field. My sponsor and a program friend, well meaning as they were, tried to get me to "not say anything." Ha! Like that was gonna happen! Lucky for me, the anesthesia wore off, my "real self" came back and I had enough "clear headedness" to share something worth listening to. But it bothered me that someone would try to protect me from me. I think there's a distinct difference b/t protecting someone for their life and protecting someone for their ego. Big difference.

How to walk the line? No answer.

isabela40 · Senior Member

I agree Diva...totally.

This is one reason why the world is in so much trouble today...people thinking they can focus on themselves ONLY and ONLY do what is best for them. Forget responsibility, obligation, dependability...

Thats right, those are not bad words...when more people lived with them as a guide the world was a lot better off.

When my marriage broke up and I was devastated with a newborn baby, my family gave me much support and comfort, but they never took the focus off the need for me to pull myself together and do what was best for MY CHILD, not for me. While I cried the comforted me...then would say "so...what is your next step to get back on your feet and provide a home for your daughter and yourself?". They never let me wallow in my pain to the point that I forgot what my focus should be. That I had taken on a responsiblity in having a child and it was not going to be easy.

Diva, since you say that you yourself have raised two healthy happy independent successful sons, I know that you have much ESH to give. Success speaks for itself. I hope many here are wise enough to listen to your ESH, I know I always do.

Thanks for sharing your hard won and valueable wisdom with us.

Love,

Isabela

debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Hi Diva, great subject.

For me. I cannot make that decision without the situation. It all depends on so many things.

First, "focus on you" does not have to be selfish. Maybe focusing on you is thinking, ok what do I want to do for this person that will help them, but not hinder their growth. It does not mean ignoring the loved one and thinking, sorry I am not going to give you any energy.

My son had to go out on his own to realize what a strong young man he was. He knew I would never allow him to be hungry. Or not be safe.

But that man can take care of himself and everyone around him now. Hey it was hell for me.

My AH's mother did so much and does so much for him, that he NEVER grew up and realized he can take care of himself, by himself. He has never lived on his own.

I know from alanon and from experience to help an A, is to NOT enable them. If they never feel desperately sick enough of their plight, they won't have the courage and power to change it.

Hey I used to give my A money, give him rides, buy him cloths, take him in to kick here, give him meds, the whole thing, thinking I was helping him. All I was doing was making him get well enough to drink and use some more.

When he was in jail I put money in his account so he could buy socks a comb, a candybar, whatever. I hoped he would buy stamps and send me a note or two. nope.

I kept putting some money in becuz it made me feel good and I knew no matter what, he could at least get a few needs and wants.

I could have just ignored and allowed him to be as miserable as possible. But for ME that would not feel good.

So again, for me it depends on the situation, and to say focus on you, does not mean I am saying, "be selfish."

We as people who love A's know, part of our illness is we stop considering ourselves in any way. That is not healthy. We do not love our self, that is wrong. The Bible even says to love others as we love our self. How can we do that if we do not love the person the creator gave us?

You don't have to be religious to know, if we do not love our self we turn out to be very critical, judgemental and insecure people.

Anyhow we are really saying the same thing.

much love,debilyn who is going to do something for herself, get this heavy Basset Hound out of her lap and eat something!

Gailey · ~*Service Worker*~

I have really been thinking alot about this lately. I will always be there for my children when they need me...but I know I must have boundaries. I just cannot keep being there over and over again. If nothing changes than nothing changes.

So...what I have decided to be my boundaries ...

1) Do not call me when you have been drinking. I do not want to know about it or talk to you at that time..

2) Do not call me when you have gotten into trouble while you are drinking to bail you out of jail and pay for a lawyer and so forth. That will be yours to take care of.

3) I will not give out any money to pay bills if you are still able to spend money in a bar or party situation.

OK...next step....tell my A.....lol

Karilynn · ~*Service Worker*~

((((((((Diva)))))),

In that case, do what you think is best. We are not in your shoes. Only you know what is best. As my grandfather would tell me: "Be still and let your heart think."

Love and blessings to you and your family. Kiss the critters for me.

Live strong,

Karilynn & Pipers Kitty

diamond · Veteran Member

Hi Diva,

I struggled with 'normal' vs. 'dysfunctional' for a long time. (Still do sometimes) I grew up in a very healthy household with loving parents who practiced compassion and unconditional love. When I married an alcoholic and had a family of my own..., I also wanted to put these principles in place...which I did. What I didn't realize, is that these behaviors - which are healthy, loving and all too often taken for granted...do not work in the same ways if applied to toxic situations.

Gradually... over the years...healthy turned into dysfunctional. It wasn't until I learned how to seperate healthy from toxic behavior that my own choices and actions made sense. Detachment, in my case - seemed cold and unloving (selfish) until I understood that my AH was not able to embrace and accept unconditional love like other people. He needed to be treated differently. I needed to react differently. I learned that detachment can also mean warm and loving for me and my family - and what works best for me from a self-love stance...is usually what works best for everyone in the end.

Just my perspective...

Take care,

Diamond

Andrea12 · ~*Service Worker*~

Diva,

This is what I did, I let him go with no home and in my heart and head Iknew what would happen...and the thing is I was exactly right....he ended up on the streets living from one drug house to another......

So I went to a drug invested area, found him and looked him dead in the face and said, enough.....he is now awaiting a rehab in a hospital.....at lease maybe, he can find some hope......

Was this wrong, I don't think so....how do you let someone you have loved for 30 yrs of your life just got straight to hell without offering a hand.....

Even a stranger deserves simple human kindness...

Love your posts,
Andrea

debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

I was just thinking if your A is in the last stage of aism, they cannot help themselves.

I am thinking like when they are so sick that they have cirrosis, or stomach is gone, or whatever. Of course I would step in and say that is enough and help them be as comfortable as they could be.

A dear friend in England just went thru this, bless her heart.

anyway.... love,debilyn who hopes someday her A will need her

mama_nz · Senior Member

I hope I can comment about mothers dealing with an A son without stepping on too many toes..

When my ex and I were still living together we'd argue and fight about the drinking while he was drinking so much his mother called it 'Friday Night Fight Night'.

Sometimes she would come over to try to 'help' but it was never any help: she would see him ranting and raving and swearing at her and I like a big gorilla and all she would say was 'oh ****** what are you saying that/why are you doing this' or just shake her head. Then he'd go out and buy more and bring it home and she'd sit and have one with him thinking it would calm him down I guess. At the time our son was only 4 months old. I felt like I was the only sane person there, it was absolute madness. Every night he'd start drinking too much and she'd say let it be and watch him get drunk and watch him try to trip me up when I'd walk by, or whisper 'bitch' (and other drunken bad behaviour). She would always side with him and say if I called the police that I was trying to ruin him, or that they'd take my son.

There comes a point surely where you draw the line and step in. I ended up leaving, but she still babies him and so now I don't want anything to do with her and she's my son's grandmother!

She used to by pot for him and after the baby was born I asked him to stop but he didn't becasue he actually told me he would have some outside and she'd tell him to chew gum to hide the smell! I believe she buys him alcohol and pot because it is a way of spending time with him and 'bonding' (sickening to me). He is disrespectful to her but not when she caters to him.

ditto · Senior Member

Diva,

You have brought up a very interesting philosophical question and much has been written upon the connection between motivation and selfishness.

This is my belief:

A distinction must be made between self-absorption and selfishness and a clear definition of selfishness must be made. Many times people will mistakenly believe that selfishness pertains to lacking in regard for the rights or feelings of others, being concerned chiefly with self, not generous. And in fact this is probably the most common definition that you will find in the dictionary and the most common usage. However, I maintain that this is actually the description of self-absorption.

Selfish people have a reason or a purpose for doing what they do. Self-absorbed people cannot think beyond themselves, they do not think of how their actions will affect anyone other than themselves. Because, from the outside, it may appear that selfish behaviors are a result of self-absorption, it is easy to confuse the two concepts.

If you haven’t already done so, you might like to read Ayn Rand’s work. She has written a treatise titled The Virtue of Selfishness. Her philosophy was called Objectivism. This theory states that the lives of men should be governed by their use of their own reason, thus creating their own moral and ethical way of life. To do this it advocates the principal of rational self-interest. You can read more about it here:

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/ct-406-FAQ_Virtue_Selfishness.aspx

The point being that I do not believe that in your scenario not helping a person is a matter of selfishness so much as it is a measure of self-absorption.

For instance, in rtexas’ example of helping his 21 year old son by fixing his car, rtexas has noted that he wanted to keep his son in college and he wanted to fix the car, so he did so. He was helpful to his son. This might be construed as enabling. However, rtexas’ response was selfish in that it was a reasoned, objective reaction in which his help fostered rtexas’ aim. It was NOT a self-absorbed act.

There could have been 3 responses.

rtexas could have been self-absorbed. He could have decided NOT to help his son because he saw no benefit to himself. He could have determined that by spending the money on his son’s car he would not have the money to spend upon himself.

rtexas could take the selfish approach (which he did) to use logic, to determine which approach would bring the best outcome… the best outcome being the one that rtexas wanted.

rtexas could have ignored the situation, denied there was a problem, and left things up to fate. This I consider foolish.

It might be argued (and has been argued most notably in Maslow's hierarchy of needs) that whatever we do, our entire motivation, is based upon our needs and wants. This is selfish but it is not necessarily self-absorbed.

That being the case, when the 12 step program asks me to put the focus on “me” that does not mean it advocates self-absorption. It means it advocates logic and reason (selfishness in its purest form).

I hope this has helped.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.