The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
The research I have done has shown that many many people turn to other addictions to solve the initial addiction. That is why many many people in AA are some serious smokers, including Bill W. who was a severe chain smoker. That is also why "13th steppin" is notorious in AA (although not formally condoned), some of them exchange the drinking addiction for a sexual addiction. AA is a very unhealthy environment for SOME people, it is rife with sick people who see nothing wrong with exchanging one unhealthy addiction for another. AA as far as I know does NOT discourage sexually acting out, affairs, etc. as long as they are NOT done to other newbies. They don't discourage smoking either, or overeating, any other addiction is OK as long as it is not to drinking.
From what I have seen, the only people successful are those who exchange their unhealthy addictions for healthy ones, Isabela
I couldn't agree more. My husband's family has alot of alcholism in it and seems they have traded their liquor addiction for sex addiction. My father in law is the worse. He's 70 years old and acts like a pervert with his womanizing talk and filthy jokes. I am so sick of his dehumanizing ways concerning women that I could puke. And--he has been in AA for 30 years. I also know of another member who is pressuring his wife into having a 3 way with another woman. She is devastated. Another one of my husband's "friends" in AA has said to me"Let's go upstairs and F---. And my husband didn't say"Knock it off, she's my wife and you will not talk to her like that". These 2 jerks have been in the program for 20 plus years. To tell you the truth, I would just as soon they drink. Their sex addiction hurts people, hurts women. I think this kind of behavior is making a mockery of the program. No program should tolerate this kind of behavior, and it's not ok as long as you don't drink. Some things are just as important, like respect for women. I know there are also alot of healthy people out there also, Thank God. I think sex addicts should be booted out before they corrupt good people. Just my 2 cents.
Oh snoopy, I wish I could say something to better the pain I hear in your voice. I also wish I could have seen a "works cited" page from Isabela. Or SOME form of citation pages for what she calls "research."
The truth is, Bill Wilson was in no way shape or form a saint. He never claimed to be, and toward the end of his life, he grew weary of the "rounds" he was making to try and be active in AA as it was expanding around the world. The small little mission that had started in a kitchen had ballooned faster than he had dreamed, and he just couldn't keep up.
Having said that, it's no secret in AA that sex and money are some of the greatest roots of our woes. In fact, we hae seen these two things be the precursor to many a relapse--"well, obviously my wife doesn't understand me. So it's time to change." "Well, obviously this job just isn't a good fit any more. So it's time to change." "Well, obviously, he doesn't know what he's got in me, so I'm done here." "Well, obviously, they're only gonna know what kinda employee they've got in me when I'm gone. So I'm GONE." But do you see the pattern here? There's no ownership of responsibility, no claim of role--the exact thing that AA preaches, teaches and owns. "What is your role?" is the hall mark of all our growth. Period
Now, having said THAT, what you're really touching on is that the people in your family have missed a critical part of the 4th step: the sex inventory. This part asks all of us to look at our relationships (not specifically those we've been physically intimate with, but absolutely those too), and to see where our dysfunctions have affected these relationships. We are challenged to see how, bringing our emotional baggage into the relationship, we failed ourselves and our partner. We are asked THEN to create a sex ideal: what do I, as an ideal partner, hope to bring to a relationship? What do I, as a person in a relationship, WANT in a relationship? Then, we ask god for his will to be done in this.
I hope this helps you. Maybe clears some stuff up.
Welcome to MIP (((snoopy))). I think it is quite common for an alcoholic to switch one addiction for another. I am no expert on AA, however I believe it does teach it's members to keep a watchful eye on substituting one addiction for another.
AA is based like alanon on working the 12 steps and a higher power. Do all people in aa and alanon get a sponsor, work the steps and go to meetings? It really only works if ya work it.
Of course aa is full of sick people they are alcoholics, they are sick people. The tools are there for working an honest program for a healthy happy spiritual life. Your post reminded me of something I heard in early alanon.
What do you get when you sober up a drunk horse thief?...a sober horse thief..
Please don't think I condone the behavior discribed in your post, I don't. However, I don't think that behavior has anything to do with AA.
Wellcome to the board. There is a little piece of the closing of our Face to Face meetings that says..."If you keep and open mind you will find help." Patience and an open mind helped me to check things and people out when I got into this Family Group. I came from a pretty sick marriage to a very active alcoholic to a room full of people who came from very similar situations. Just listening to there stories helped convince me that the disease of alcoholism is absolutely cunning, powerful and baffling and has a very sick affect on everyone it touches. That was fact enough for me as I as a newcomer listened to the stories in the room and all the crazy things our membership was doing in reaction. Illicit sex is not nurtured in alcoholism alone you will find it alive and very well in any corner of mankind no matter who is preaching purity. Gambling? Love of money? Love of things? work addictions? all of this and more occurs throughout society. Some of them seem more perverse and alcoholics tend to have a way of getting the spotlight more highly focused on themselves (egotism and self centeredness is one of those things we in recovery go after first and foremost) so they love shirts with bulls eyes on them. Its so easy to shoot at an alcoholic...sick people don't duck fast and some of them dare you to kill them before they do it themselves.
In the Al-Anon Family Groups we learn to self focus and give up the opportunities to indulge the disease and its many and various characteristics. We learn to stop blaming and practice being "fair, honest and just" with ourselves and others.
If you want to know about alcoholics...go to open AA meetings with an open mind again. If you go into the room with a preconcieved notion that they are bad or immoral rather than sick (this is a AMA (American Medical Association) registered primary disease) then turn around and go somewhere else because there will be no honest intent. I took that suggestion when I first got into Al-Anon and was miserable going to open AA meetings. There is nothing they could have done or said to convince me that they we just jerks and liars and cheats. Today 27 years later in recovery and with a college education on the disease of addiction I know much better. Most of what I know just serves me. People who have their minds aready made up will be in the same frame of mind still regardless of the proof.
As for who does what? well....In my first few weeks and months of Al-Anon I got hit on several times..."no questions asked and no commitments" I was told. That wasn't what I was in the program for but I knew that it wasn't only my alcoholic that could practice that behavior when she was drinking. Some of the early membership in All-Anon including myself was very sick also and I was trying to move the opposite way. Of course I didn't take the inventations then. That behavior doesn't only go on in AA for sure. I was told that when I point the finger out at someone else I better well recognize that there are three more pointing back at me and it is my side of the street that needs to be clean before I go judging others. I was also told that when I was listening to another person judge the alcoholic they might very well be talking about themselves.
I've been around for a while and heard and shared lots of what it was like, what happened and what its like now. I know that the people in this program come from sick places...I did for sure. I know that they have needs (personal and other) and have motives sick and sane, I also did qualify in this area also. I know they were in this program to experience change of some sort without knowing what sort of change was necessary. This was me also. When I was told I had to change me? I experienced shock and denial and got angry...but stuck around.
Guess what? It was me that needed changing all along. I am responsible for what goes on in my life today and how I belive and behave. This is my responsibility in spite of the disease of alcoholism or how any alcoholic or politician or preacher or priest or wife and mother of high stature or movie idol is choosing to live their life. I am in charge of me and what happens to me. I had to develope a set of keepable values and cherish living them. It helps make this responsibility thing easier if I keep coming back, read the literature, have and use a sponsor and work with sponsees, do service for and within my group and for newcomers, continue to keep working the steps, traditions and slogans...all the language and philosophy of the program and......not do the other stuff like drink, use, fool around, lie, cheat and steal and whatever. I by the way still know how to do that....just haven't for a long time. And if you really hate alcoholics and what they do...I would have been a dart board in your den.
Get feedback from lots of recovering people before you make up your mind who you are going to rely upon for truth. When it becomes your truth it will sit well and easy inside of you and you will be at peace.
So sorry that was the long version. I am known to do that at times and at times I don't mind. I hope you will arrive at a more honest understanding and compassion while joining this family.
Please try not to "bash AA", for all you have pointed out is that there are sick people everywhere, both inside, and outside, of AA circles. To suggest that AA somehow condones or even encourages other, non-drinking addictions, is misleading and erroneous.
Tom
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Please try not to "bash AA", for all you have pointed out is that there are sick people everywhere, both inside, and outside, of AA circles. To suggest that AA somehow condones or even encourages other, non-drinking addictions, is misleading and erroneous.
Tom
My point is that all is not ok if the person just doesn't drink. There are many more just as important things such as not being a sex addict. As I said, that hurts people, hurts women and for the life of me I can't understand why they are not booted out, or at least told to stop it. I do not believe that AA encourages other non-drinking addictions, but I really don't see how someone that has 20-30 years in the program can get by with dehumanizing women. In all reality, I would just as soon my father in law drink as having to hear him talk and act like a pervert. I don't even want my children around someone like that.
AA doesn't have a "booting out" policy. People can, and are encouraged to, discuss behaviors they see in other members with their members. And all members are encouraged to continue step work, use a sponsor, and continue meeting work. It is an equal opportunity disease--everyone dies.
Step 12: "Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to other Alcoholics who still suffer, and to practice these principles in all our affairs."
This is the 12th step of AA - it is just like Al-Anon - we are to try to practice all of these principles (the previous 11 steps) in all our affairs. Just as I am sure there are some Al-Anons that do not follow all of these principles, there are probably some AA's that do not follow all of these principles. This is where we try to apply "Take what you like and leave the rest"
It doesn't mean that we condone their behavior, it means that we leave them to a Power greater than ourselves to deal with whatever needs to be dealt with and focus on our own recovery.
Just my understanding of our programs,
Rita
__________________
No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
To tell you the truth, I would just as soon they drink. Their sex addiction hurts people, hurts women. I think this kind of behavior is making a mockery of the program. No program should tolerate this kind of behavior, and it's not ok as long as you don't drink. Some things are just as important, like respect for women.
To tell you the truth, I would just as soon they drink. Their sex addiction hurts people, hurts women. I think this kind of behavior is making a mockery of the program. No program should tolerate this kind of behavior, and it's not ok as long as you don't drink. Some things are just as important, like respect for women.
Hi Annie,
I just saw this post. I know it is an old issue, and I am a newbie. But to answer your question as I see it today, I disagree with judgement of AA.
AA clearly and consistently states that their singular purpose is to help Alcoholics stay sober and alive.
Sounds to me that you are asking AA to also help sex addicts quit. Help vulger disgusting rude, sexist pigs improve their view and treatment of women. That is not AA's mandate.
Kick people out? The attraction of AA and Al-Anon is that all people suffering from the disease related to alcoholism are not judged and all are welcomed.
I have been to some open AA meeting. What wonderful people you meet there. Caring for each other. Supportive of each other's efforts to stay sober and stay alive. I wish that principle can be exported to teh general population.
I would not like to sooner see my wife drink. I would not like to see my wife cheat on me. It is not a one or the other. I am hoping and praying that it is not one or the other.
