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If I don’t want to spend any time with an A spouse who is under the influence daily and not working any program, is that considered “conditional love”? In other words if I don’t want to go out to dinner or take vacation with an active alcoholic, am I not living up to my part of the marriage vows by accepting her with “unconditional love”?
These are great questions. Shows that you want to use boundaries and detachment in a healthy way. Great job. I would suggest also reading any Al-Anon info you have on boundaries and detachment.
Is there a time that you can discuss this issue with your spouse when they are not under the influence? That is usually the best time to set these boundaries. Example: "I would love to take you out Friday night for a meal at our favorite restaurant. My treat. My boundary is that I would be unable to accept unacceptable behavior. I would like to enjoy your company without you being under the influence of alcohol. If you are unable to do this, then we will cancel our plans." "I would love to treat you to a meal out at your favorite restaurant, but I will be unable to pay for any alcoholic drinks. You will have to pay for your own drinks."
Then there is always the option of taking separate vehicles, so that you have the ability to leave if your spouse doesn't honor your boundary. For me, the hard part was always verbalizing that boundary in a clear and percise manner to my A. And then of course, following through.
Good Luck with this Jeeves, remember Progress Not Perfection - If you don't get it right the first time - keep trying, with time you will learn what is right for you.
One Day at a Time,
Rita
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No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
Just because you love someone doesn't mean you want to go on vacation with them. This does not make the love "conditional" in my mind. I can love a drunk and still opt out of dinner on Tuesday.
You asked for opinions.... mine is "NO", plain and simple. I would consider that much more of a boundary you are setting for yourself, and aiming to surround yourself with acceptable and appropriate behavior.
In my experience, active A's quite often use this "conditional love" concept as a guilt-trip, etc. Interesting to read the differences between toxic and real love (you can google it), and they are really referring to toxic kind of love, which is ultimately not healthy for anyone.
Take care
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Just an opinion...based on my own experience. I find it somewhat amazing that a lot of us married to alcoholics... get caught up in the "marriage vow" dilemma. A counselor told me something once that really stuck with me, and I tend to reflect back on these words when I catch myself feeling guilty about 'my part' of the breakdown of my marriage.
The words were as follows...
"The marriage vows were meant to go both ways. When you married, he promised to love, honor and cherish you. So...who broke the vows?"
It really made me see things from a different perspective. Why was I beating myself up so much about honoring our vows when he had been breaking them long before I started setting personal boundaries? Of course, when I did...he loved to use them against me. Funny how he didn't see it in himself though. No, not really funny - just alcoholic 'normal'.
We all have a right to set healthy boundaries. Choosing not to be around an active alcoholic for our own sanity is not breaking wedding vows. I see it more as honoring yourself, your choices, and your peace of mind.
This may sound hypocritical to some but oh well. I love my husband, warts and all. But I refuse to live with his disease if he is active. I will stand by him 150%, but I will not die for his disease. I don't have it in me to live with an active alcoholic. I am not willing to risk my life for his disease. It doesn't mean that I don't love him. I would however, stand in front of a moving bus, give an organ, and do any number of things to save his life. Boundaries are healthy and give us strength to make healthy decisions. I don't love him any less because he's an alcoholic, recovering or active. But when his unhealthy choices were making me so sick that I could barely function, that's where I drew my line in the sand. He has told me that if the shoe were on the other foot, he would have made the same decisions that I did. I have no doubt in my mind that is the truth.
Unconditional love? Hmmm...... I'll leave that for my nieces and Piper Kitty. Although when kitty brings me home frogs, I'm not so loving. True unconditional love is for my HP and the beauty of nature. But even that needs to be nutured and taken care of.
Thanks for the post, it's really made me think.
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
This is a keep it simple program so...the shortest simplest sentence is No. I also learned that if God wouldn't do it why should/could I? Today I don't place myself in unacceptable situations because I have learned to love myself too!!
You don't gotta go. There's no law that says you gotta. After all is said and done you will be responsible for the outcome of your decision. The marriage vows don't say that you become less than mentally, emotionally, physically and spiritually because your spouse chooses to get drunk or loaded and act like a prune.
Besides its not the love thats conditional/unconditional its the relationship. "I love you and don't want to be with you when you are not sober/drunk/acting like a drunk/planning on drinking/ etc." Is a valid, self caring statement. Memorize and practice saying it. I wouldn't want to be with anyone who was in this condition!!
Anyway...that's kinda the long version of a subject very close to my recovery. When I found out I din't have ta do it? I stopped doin it. When I learn that NO was a complete sentence, I practiced saying it until I got it down good. No fear, no guilt, no shame...no pain. Please keep coming back.
"The marriage vows were meant to go both ways. When you married, he promised to love, honor and cherish you. So...who broke the vows?"
Hi Jeeves
I think Diamond hit the nail on the head with this comment.
I think you appreciate that you are not responsible for your wife's drinking. You are also responsible however for communicating to her why you don't want involvement in these scenarios. ie you would BECOME responsible for her should she drink and that is not acceptable to you. Quite rightly. If she puts herself in a situation where she knowingly makes herself vulnerable through alcohol then she has no right to expect anyone, not even you, to bale her out.
It is like constantly kicking a dog and then blaming it for not loving you because it doesn't want to be near you. Even "good dogs" refered to elsewhere in this thread have the sense to turn away eventually.
I want to thank all of you for taking time to read and respond to my question. The responses are consistent but offer various solutions and that is what so great about coming back.
Personally I don't believe in "unconditional love" in a marriage. This term was made up in a song and people have been abusing it ever since to emotionally blackmail others.
The very situation of marriage is "conditional love". I love my husband because I saw something in him that made me want to marry him and well, also...because he IS my husband and does "husbandly" things for me.
I can't say that I love my EXhusband at all, althouth at one time I loved him very much, we have known each other since kindergarten, so that WAS some pretty deep love there. So much for "unconditional love".
Love in a relationship in a marriage is usually conditional. I would NOT love my husband if he beat me up, cheated on me, stole from me, swindled me, and slandered me...yup...I would no longer love him anymore under those conditions. I know there are some people who say they would...well...more power to them. I chose to be emotionally healthy and love people who love me back. I don't waste my love on people out to destroy me.
Now, I agree once again with Richard, I unconditionally love my biological child, as she is part of me and much of that love is instinctive and biological it has little to do with our relationship. Then, on top of that we have a wonderful relationship, so that is merely cementing that bond. I also love my sweet little kitty unconditionally, even when he bites me when the I get the wrong food because his favorite was out of stock, LOL. He bites me to communicate, not to hurt me, so I still love him even though I am starting to look a little battle weary from his bites, sigh (LOL).
Early on in our relationship my husband and I talked about those silly "sayings" that are really baloney. We both understand that love is conditional on being kind and good to each other and if we are not, then well, love may not stick around for long.
That keeps us both on our toes which is a GOOD thing. When you take something for granted it is easy to abuse it and that "unconditional love" baloney is only setting up most people to think they can act any old way, be emotionally abusive and the partner is supposed to put up with it and LIKE IT in the name of "unconditional love" HAH!.
I also agree that mostly it is women falling for these sappy sayings and then using it to try and control the guy. I dated a lot before marriage and have yet to hear a single guy come to me with that baloney about unconditional love. I was good to them, respected their feelings, did not play games with them and knew that if I acted like jerk I did not expect them to love me anyway just because I threw those song lyrics at them. They knew that too, and that respect for each other made thigns work well.
I think it IS loving of you to set boundaries about not being with your wife on a vacation when she is drunk. Not seeing her at her worst helps you to be able to feel more love towards her and seeing her up close and personal at her worst can only be detrimental to your relationship.
On our last "vacation" that my husband dragged me too we almost got divorced over it and I don't think I have forgiven him yet and it has been nearly five years. He was drunk nearly the entire time and being stuck in a motel room with him in that state for so much of that time made me think some pretty unkind things about him. That was NOT good for our relationship and like I said, we are still feeling the legacy of that bad decision for me to go with him. Last time he traveled and wanted me to go I was firm and said NO, and it worked out...I actually missed him...a LITTLE, rather than wish he would somehow drop dead...LOL.
