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Once in a while...just once in a while, I will become annoyed or have my feelings hurt. It could be something my partner has said; a misunderstanding; something someone else has said or done that causes me to feel angry or hurt. It happens to us all. Will I never learn? When I attempt to talk to him, I always get the same answer: "That's nonsense!" It seems he wants nothing above a superficial conversation about whatever might be bothering me. "That's ridiculous!" is another of his favored responses. I am left feeling unfulfilled, hurt, and annoyed on top of the initial hurt. And my response to him is usually something like, "Well it may seem like nonsense to you..." Probably I should discontinue trying to confide my inner thoughts. I keep hoping that one time he will sit down, listen, understand, and offer comfort. Hope springs eternal...It doesn't happen. I see this as a lack of caring by the one person who should care the most.
I am an open book. THere is no question where anyone stands with me, and I am always willing to listen and offer comfort even if there is no answer. If I feel there is an answer, I'll say so. I do not understand how anyone can be so "detached." Yes, that's the word; detached.
OK, I am good at giving advice. Now advise me. Anyone got any ideas? Is his attitude typical "A" behavior?
Wondering and annoyed, Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Diva, I cannot advise you. I'm am in the very early stages of recovery. But I can absolutely identify with what you are saying. My Abf is just like this. He cannot seem to give any more that superficial conversation when it comes to discussing feelings. I really think he doesn't know how to. I feel his emotional immaturity keeps him locked in this way. He can't understand deep relating, and is uncomfortable in any discussion that involves feelings. Sometimes I feel that I am missing out on so much...that I deserve a deeper, more meaningful relationship. I know he will never be able to give me this. But, somehow I love this man (I question what this means sometimes too!), and I have made my choices. I can't expect more than he is able to give, can I? But sometimes I feel I'm selling myself short....
I don't know whether it is typical A behavior or not, but I gave up confiding my deepest thoughts and needs to my A long ago. I had told him some very private things before, and when he was drunk, he brought them up to me in front of other people, probably to humiliate me, which he did. Just know that we on this board are always here for each other and will never humiliate each other! This is the only place I can trust people to not intentionally hurt me. That's one great thing about cyber-space, eh? Hope this helped? Love you! TLC
Not sure if it's typical behavior or not. I can identify with feeling a bit left out of things. But I'm not sure if it's because he's in recovery and is choosing not to talk about things, or it's just hubby. He's not a huge talker anyway. He does so much mental health work and trying to figure out who he is without the alcohol that I'm not sure he even realizes what he's doing or not doing. Although yesterday I was feeling out of sorts, and so was he, and he thought it might be a good idea if we took a break from each other. We were suppose to spend the afternoon fishing but I just didn't feel like being around him or anyone for that matter. He very nicely told me and he came home later with dinner in hand because he felt bad. But there really was nothing to feel bad about. Once in a blue moon he says things, that he doesn't realize can hurt me. But is that addict behavior or hubby just being hubby? Maybe he's just being human.
Love and blessings to you and your family.
Live strong,
Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
Here's my experience on this.My AH has been sober 16 years.He went through a dry drunk spell recently but I "think" he is out of that.He gets 2 face to face meetings a day and one online meeting.He reads the Big Book every morning as his sponsor told him to.He will drive another 'drunk' as he calls them to a meeting.So it appears he is working the program.I do not know about where he is on the steps though.
So having said that,he is still very self centered.He also trivializes my feelings.He will talk ad nauseum about himself but let the subject change to me and he suddenly has somewhere to be or something to do.He used to actually look at his watch while I was talking,doesn't do that anymore.I have pointed this out to him but it just ends up in an argument.
I also have an alcoholic brother.He is active,not in any recovery.We had never been close but after my sister died we started talking by email.We got along great until my AH met this online girlfriend and I tried to talk to my big brother about it.He went nuts.He just could not handle my feelings at all.Instead of getting a shoulder to lean on and support I got anger and a cold shoulder.
This same brother will call my ( non A ) mom and keep her on the phone for hours telling her all about his life.She says when she tries to talk about herself he says,wait a minute,I'm not finished.If she does get something in about her he won't spend much time on it but goes right back to himself.
I have an alcoholic sister also,was sober 20 years then drank last year.She is going to meetings again now.While I was dealing with all the stress of my job,trying to take care of our 91 yr old mom,doing everything around my house,paying bills,etc.,and dealing with my AH and his online affair,she told my mom she was through with me because I didn't call HER when she was sick.
I don't know if it's typical A behavior,this self centeredness, but it certainly looks like it to me.This is just my experience though.
Sorry,I know I sound negative this morning.But this is the truth as I see it right now.Take what you like and leave the rest as they say.I hope someone else has something more positive.
Well I see several replies concerning the "self-centeredness" of A's. And yup, that is a common trait. I'd like to share a different perspective though.
I had a conversation on feelings with hubby once. Ok, it wasn't a "conversation", it was me just blurting out in hurt and upset all my feelings. Poor guy, I pretty much bashed him over the head with words. He sat there with this sad, lost look on his face and finally asked me if I could "please stop, this is so much to process, I can't take it all in at once."
"please stop, this is so much to process, I can't take it all in at once." That sentence there did stop me in my tracks. It made me realize how very difficult it is for an A to understand and relate to feelings when they have spent their life drinking to drown out any feelings.
Now when we talk about feelings, I focus on just one thing at a time. I also make it very clear that feelings are not facts, this is just how I feel "at this time" (thats another important point - feelings can change). I recall how hard it was for me to make changes in myself, to learn how to deal with feelings in a positive way. How much harder I think it must be for him when he never knew how to deal with those feelings to begin with. It's a slow process, but I see little hints of progress. We acknowledge each other's feelings and talk about what can be done to change them if needed. It's really important in these discussions not to accuse or attack the other of "causing" our own feelings though. I am responsible for how I feel, he is responsible for how he feels. Neither one of us "made" the other feel a certain way.
It is like I told my oldest son about his anger issues. Sure his growing up years affected him, but he is the one responsible now to control his own attitude and actions. He cannot keep blaming other people or things for it. He has a choice of what kind of person he wants to be now, today. Since that talk, he really took it to heart, and has worked on controlling his temper and not simply lashing out. I have seen a big change in him, lots of progress. I am thankful I found Al-Anon and learned this for myself so that I was able to share it with him. I acknowledged my part in his growing up years and said all I could do is be a better person today with what I now know. That I was not going to feel guilty the rest of my life for past mistakes I made not knowing any better or being too "sick" to do the right thing. Past is past, this is today, lets make it a better day. And we have.
Love, Kis
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Let your light shine in the darkness. "I can't just bring my mind to meetings...I must also bring my heart."
I do not know if it is "typical" A behavior but in my opinion...
If you read up on narcissism and more so NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder)you may find that many alcoholics and hardcore narcissists have the same traits--as in lack of empathy and an over-abundance of self importance...both alcoholics and heavyduty narcissists can be very damaging to a relationship...
Diva... it IS typical behavior of an alcoholic, and of course there is not a heckuva lot you can do about that..... However, yours is also fairly typical behavior of an Al-Anon, and you CAN do something about that.
I did the same thing, all the time, and when I was honest with myself, I was trying to get my A to validate my feelings, and was almost always disappointed. Then I learned some communications tools, whereby I learned to express my feelings, that did NOT require my A's validation, or even response. This allowed me the new skill to state how I was feeling, but I neither expected, nor required, any kind of answer from my A. Simply talking about how things make you feel is healthy for you, and you don't need anyone to validate any of it.
Hope that helps
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Great post, enlightening. I know that this is extremly frustrating & unfair. I go thru this all the time. I'm new to this & have posted once. Still have to personally thank everyone...that includes you!
Majority of people have stories to share of the same nature. Guessin it's typically behavior. Thot it was me who didn't know how to communicate, until now. Have to agree that A's drown problems along w/emotions. By doin this, it seems harder for them to deal w/REAL feelings, REAL life situatons.
Asked my ABf to save me a date this wk for dinner. He agreed Tues. Actually, I wanted to express my feelings but didn't convey that to him as to not scare him away. He went on to sugguest a movie afterwards. Told him I didn't want to rush thru dinner cause I wanted to ask for advise & pick his brain. His answer, "Dont have much brain to pick. I'm tired been workin over 13 hrs/day. Brain tired. Need rechargin. Shuttin down." My answer, "Sorry guess I wasn't thinking. At another time then. Check to see what time movie starts. It's your night!" Urrgh! I asked for a date! I asked for time! It got turned around! Always does, always tired! I apologized! Weird!
Always an excuse when he hears I have somethin important to share. Learnin, keep things to self. Figure things out myself. No depending on him or his thots. Learning.
Sorry this is sooo long. But again I have to agree now...this seems to be normal behavior...self-centered behavior.
Aloha Diva!! That is typical alcoholic behavior especially when your spouse/partner/significant other is an alcoholic. Actually it is typical of most fearful people. When I'm fearful its best to keep others away!! (detached?) Big awareness is - men (males) (not all of course but a huge number) are not good with feelings things. Feeling things are what women are about. Men are out of their heads (maybe literally). We are the thinkers, the brain guys. We think!! If we cannot think or are confused about what you are saying we sometimes treat you like you have been treated. It is easier to say, "that's ridiculous!!", "that's stupid or insane" "that's not right" or whatever it is we just REACT with rather than say anything that would keep us into feeling afraid like maybe "I don't know let me think about that" or "Tell me more I don't understand" or "Why are you feeling (we don't know this stuff right?) that way?"
Learning and talking about feelings takes too much time!! We have to solve the problems of the world like who will win WWIII or will every ocean dry up due to global warming or only the ones in the western hemisphere. These are the important things!! Leave us to our thinking and stop trying to trip us up with nonsense. Little bit over dramatic but actually women do feelings way better than guys because you ladies come from the heart while we come from the head. When men get in touch with their feelings it is often call, "getting in touch with our female side." Yuk and double Yuk.
Easiest done? Go get a loving, caring, experienced sponsor and grow, grow, grow. (He may never get it. Too bad for him.)
WOW, what an interesting question. It is like alcoholics males read the same book, LOL.
My husband often gives the same response word for word as yours does when I try to talk to him about my feelings.
I have read and heard that guys often feel squemish talking about feelings, but this level of indifference certainly is beyond the normal "guy" aversion to long conversations about feelings.
I think that the answer is sort of a combination between what Richard and Kiss said. My husband actually DOES have NPD, and I can certainly "see it". Everyone else just thinks he is an "absent minded professor" and is such a genius (please!) that he can't be bothered with trivial details such as worrying about people's feelings, sigh. But as his wife, I can see that he has a crippling level of ignorance about other peoples feelings. Sometimes he does try to understand but he just can't. Most of the time he just does not want to be bothered and then sometimes he is just so frustrated at his lack of understanding and empathy that he just gives up and tells me I am being silly or stupid or immature.
Yes, it IS all about him. I think some of this is his alcoholism. While us sober people are learning about life and taking our hard knocks and developing some emotional backbone they are drowning their sorrows in alcohol and NOT learning to read complex human emotions. My husband many tries to read other things into my conversations and he is ALWAYS WRONG! He just does not get it, even though he tries at times.
I am extremely intuative and this drives him insane, LOL. Once, right before our separation I sensed that he was interested in being involved with someone else. I had no proof, just intuition. I confronted him, he denied it, then later screamed at me to "get out of his head!". He is like an open book, while I (like most women) am not. So, due to the frustration inherint in this situation, he just gives up and tries to at least be polite to me, which he unfailingly is.
I am always wanting to talk to him about my feelings and he hates that. He NEVER initiates a conversation about his feelings. He says that "grown-ups" learn to handle their feelings and don't go to other grown-ups about them (SIGH!). In other words, he handles his feelings on his own when I insult him somehow inadvertantly (just in normal life, alcoholics are often imagining some made up slight against them) so he expects me too to handle my feelings on my own when he somehow offends me "due to imperfection". Yeah, he thinks I "do it on purpose", but he "does it by accident"...PLEASE (here is the NPD kicking in)!
That is just it, they are clueless often about normal, but subtle, human interaction.
My husband has a professional job and has used his intellect to learn social norms and good manners to a point, as long as things remain simple, but that is all it is, memorization, he cannot internalize anything. He is very polite and well mannered in public, it is his interpersonal relations that suffer.
When we got married his parents both told me that they were shocked, they never thought that he had enough interpersonal skills to win a woman over, especially someone educated like I was (in other words someone that they thought could do better), LOL. At the time I thought they were joking, now I realize that it was no joke.
When it comes the the important stuff, working a regular job, paying the bills, not using profanity, not running around, taking care of the lawn, being polite and respectful to my parents and friends, my husband has the minimum skill required. However, when it comes to being a soulmate, or confidant, well, it just aint there...sigh.
I have done a lot of research into NPD and it is VERY common amongst alcoholics. Most are never diagnosed. Of course, there is a range here, my husband has a mild case, I can see it, but few other people do. Most people think he is the greatest thing that ever walked the earth, since he is so polite seemingly mild mannered, intelligent, educated, and hard working, and handsome too.
I used to think that my husband did not really love me to be so insensitive to my feelings but have learned that he really does, as much as HE can in his current situation. I can so relate to that feeling that they should put being sensitive to our feelings as prime importance. However I WILL say that when my husband can clearly see someone else has hurt my feelings or offended me and he is quick to be sympathetic and understanding. Of course I am talking about serious things here, I am not easily offended, it has to be so glaringly obvious that anyone could see it.
I got sick while working at a very critical time at my job. I teach skill classes such as sewing, jewelry making, polymer clay, and paper art classes. I had worked very hard and my store was number one in the country in class supply sales. I also had record enrollment in my classes when I got sick. I had malignantly high blood pressure and the powerful meds needed to bring it down caused severe side effects. I could not drive due to the dizzy spells and extreme fatigue. My store was FURIOUS as they had to cancel so many of my classes with the record enrollment and my skills were so specialized that they had no one to replace me. I took a leave of absense for 3 months, which they agreed to. When I tried to go back to work, they informed me that they were already working on trying to train a replacement for me since "I might die" and they never wanted to cancel a class again. I was incredulous with that statement. My husband was very supportive, so I found that in a pinch he could be there for me. He told me that they did not deserve me and that my talent was too big for that little store (LOL, but it was a nice thing to say... he was trying after all) he told me that I was probably destined for bigger and better things and to not let their indifference towards me hurt my feelings.
So, I have learned to be grateful that in the long run, when he CAN understand them, he does care about my feelings a lot, but I will have to learn to swallow most of my hurt feelings as he can't even comprehend them much less deal with them.
Diva wrote: Probably I should discontinue trying to confide my inner thoughts. I keep hoping that one time he will sit down, listen, understand, and offer comfort. Hope springs eternal...It doesn't happen. I see this as a lack of caring by the one person who should care the most. I am an open book. THere is no question where anyone stands with me, and I am always willing to listen and offer comfort even if there is no answer. If I feel there is an answer, I'll say so. I do not understand how anyone can be so "detached." Yes, that's the word; detached. OK, I am good at giving advice. Now advise me. Anyone got any ideas? Is his attitude typical "A" behavior? Wondering and annoyed, Diva
Wow! Me answering a Diva post!
This is exactly how I feel (see my How to deal with emotional blackmail post). I am always feeling that I am not allowed to air my views. I bite my tongue constantly, keeping my thoughts to myself when the most abject subjective viewpoints are thrown at me as "gospel truths".
I am at the point where I try NOT to argue a point as it will only extend the unpleasantness. Once she is over her rant things get back to normal. It isn't nice but it is my way of dealing. It is probably not "right" either as I am probably being seen increasingly as a doormat. Who can say what is the correct approach in our circumstances?
All I can offer to you is that whatever way YOU deal with things is the RIGHT way. Once you have made the choice of approach then that is the only one that will play out. It is the way things are...the only way.... therefore the RIGHT way.....for you! Make your considered choice and then stand by it. Have the courage of your convictions. You thought long and hard, you decided, give your choice the respect it deserves. You always retain the right to change your mind.
As for your question. Is this typical A behaviour? Don't know....but my partner fits that template pretty closely. My feelings are entirely secondary if not tertiary to those of my partner and her immediate family. She is not interested in how I feel, taking almost any comment as personal criticism. It is a life of walking on eggshells but there is a silver lining for me you know? It has made me more aware of other peoples' feelings. I feel I have become more compassionate overall and as such a better human being.
You are clearly far further down the path than I and your compassion shines like a beacon to us all. You have your way of dealing out advice, calling a spade a f**king shovel when necessary. I for one appreciate it. Thank you!
he was trying after all) he told me that I was probably destined for bigger and better things and to not let their indifference towards me hurt my feelings.