Another way to look at it. - Al-Anon Family Group

Diva · ~*Service Worker*~

Another way to look at it.

kerry5 · Senior Member

I personally think he did the bare minimum of alcoholism research. I do not believe that people mean what they say when drunk. I believe its thier frustrations and guilt and fears coming to light and they are not coping well with it and say things they do not mean. As does everyone at one time or another. I also believe they are in a huge amount of emotional pain and alcohol keeps them from feeling it. All that wrapped into one. Brings out the worse in them

kerry

sdisnie · Senior Member

No way does alcohol magnify your personality! If that was the case, then my AH would be even harder working than he is sober, kinder, more loving and worry even more about everyone else! That is just ludicrous! Our local radio station this past week had people call in and give their opinion on whether they thought alchohol was a truth serium. I think for an alcoholic, no way, because they've way passed that point of no return, they were once a cucumber that turned into a pickle! For the rest of us, it can be a truth serium in a way because we can drink and be happy, have fun etc, because we are still a cucumber, we have not turned into a pickle!

Diva · ~*Service Worker*~

Hmmmm... a couple of interesting views already. Do we say what we know to be a fact, or say what we hope is the truth? Diva

kerry5 · Senior Member

Its a fact that alcohol does not make ppl say the truth and if you look it up you will find out that information also. here is one who used mel gibsons alcohol experience http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/15187773.htm who have been studying alcoholism for 40 years.

kerry

Diva · ~*Service Worker*~

Your article is interesting kerry, and the opinions vary. But the point is made that there is no science. The fact that there IS no science gives rise to promoting one's opinion as fact. None of us knows for sure; six one-half dozen the other as I read it.

david62 · ~*Service Worker*~

Wow!!

Two great responses to your post!

I think Kerry's right on with the "bare minimum" of research/thinking Mr. Pitts did. I am reminded of something I heard a speaker at a conference say once, (that's where I heard it the first time..and the speaker was a Al-Anon member...his friend was a long time AA member). This man had asked his friend..."How do I know when she (his significant other) is lying?" His friend replied, "Are Her lips moving?"

Now that is certainly an exaggeration, but sheese, how many of our A's lie or have lied to us sober. How many times do they seem irrational or just say things that we know are not true about us, others or whatever... WHEN THEY ARE SOBER!!!

If Mr. Pitts "magnification" OPINION (and I think most of us know that saying about opinions and how they are like something else everyone has

) holds true...Katy bar the door!!!

They will certainly become more paranoid, more devious, more free to spout whatever little thing creeps into there pickled brain. Better liars! Better manipulators........well I think we get the idea!

Ya know, the more we know the less we know about what it is that "other" person is or isnt doing. Who they really are, or who they really arent!

Perhaps thats why Al-anon teaches us to focus on ourselves. And learn who we are and learn what we want out of our lives. And it helps us to get to a place where we have the courage to make that happen. And maybe, just maybe, it can teach us to stop focusing so much on why others do the things THEY do and start focusing on the things WE do.

If we learn to live our lives the way our HP wants us too. Keep our side of the street clean, learn to love ourselves and try, try, try to follow our HP's path for us...well ... all will be as it should be.

Thanks as always, Diva

Yours in Recovery,
David

-- Edited by david62 at 11:59, 2006-08-05

just me · ~*Service Worker*~

Diva,

Well the first thing to go is judgement. Then inhibition...so I would think it magnifies the traits of you that sober would never come to life. Anger, frustration and depression are things I see magnified by alcohol. Not true for everyone of course. When someone I love is under the influence I would not take to heart anything that they say or do. However, it is another thing to have to deal with that on a daily basis. Personally I can't do it anymore.

Julia

greta · Senior Member

"He doesn't mean all the terrible things he says when he's drunk. It's the alcohol speaking."

Who knows what the truth is here!, If he knows or not...we teach ppl how to treat us. and saying terrible things to me is not ok! alcohol or not...period

I can not and will not accept unacceptable behavior just because someone is drunk/stoned.

This is why enableing is a no no! If I enable a drunk...am I not letting him use his alcoholism as an excuse?...If I dont' enable, ...it puts the problem on him.

Mel Gibson is trying to say he was drunk and said things because he was drunk. I bet he sure wishes he had put a sock in it! I would not want to be in his shoes today...His hp is really working on him.

Diva I have thought of your posts the last few days...I agree with what u are saying...but thanks to the program...I make no excuses for the a's in my life...it is their life. If they choose to drink they choose the consequences.

Thanks,

Carol

Diva · ~*Service Worker*~

"Just me" and David, thanks for your interesting responses. David, I shall ponder the "Are her lips moving?" quote. That's great. And, by the way, David, Mr. Pitts is a recovering A...

Remember, while AlAnon teaches to focus on one's self, it doesn't mean to the exclusion of everything else. As I see it, the more I know about myself AND the A, the better prepared I am. Life goes on, and to fashion a cocoon and dive into it is not facing the reality of our shared problem. I remain unconvinced. My A and I discussed Mr. Pitt's quote, and his (my A's) opinion is that As' minds run wild, saying and doing things that they would never dream of when sober. Then he said, "But, yes, sometimes we say things, true things, that we wouldn't otherwise say."

It is an interesting subject about which there is no exact science. But it DID get you started this Saturday morning!

Have a good one. Diva

-- Edited by Diva at 12:59, 2006-08-05

jonibaloni · Veteran Member

I agree with this author's explanation.

I also believe that in true recovery, our Higher Power can change the very person that we are... by removing our old ideas and character defects and resentments. yes, alcoholics are very sick, dimented puppies to begin with. There is hope for permanent change of values, though, one day at a time, through a spiritual experience of thoroughly working the 12 Steps, and then living them. Half measures availed us nothing...

jonibaloni

I just wanted to add, too, that ALL people, AlAnon, A, 'earth people', etc... ALL have some forms of prejudices, self-pity, dishonesty, and other faults that are kept under lock and key. Sometimes we are not even aware of them until, as it was said, our inhibitions are removed. We are all human beings, very intricate, very complicated beings. Just because a person has never gotten drunk and spouted off obscenities doesn't mean that person spiritually 'walks on water'. They are just possibly equipped to make better choices at that moment in time.

-- Edited by jonibaloni at 13:19, 2006-08-05

-- Edited by jonibaloni at 13:20, 2006-08-05

Tiger2006 · ~*Service Worker*~

Well, as we say in AA, diva, "our drinking was merely a symptom of underlying truths. Our thinking was the true cause of our misery, and we had to get to the root causes."

debilyn · ~*Service Worker*~

Oh Diva, Diva, I really wonder too! They lose their inhibitions.

That's why I say my A does not cheat, has no desire to.

He does abuse, has a desire to and when drunk he is horrible. He loses his will power to hold it back.

I like this question a lot. See you are such a smart cookie! (c:

I don't want to think about this too much, it makes my head hurt. But sure is a great subject.

love,debilyn giving Divalady a high five!

Christy · ~*Service Worker*~

Interesting topic Diva :)

I personally think A's spew at random.

If it takes years and the 12 Steps to uncover who they really are...How can they spew truth just because they are hammered?
Which puts them in an even worse and foggier thought process.

Does alcohol bring all that which they are attempting to bury to the surface? If that was true they probably wouldn't do it. They drink to drown the truth.
Maybe it can bring their anger out over their truth, hurt, etc....and we all know whoever is closest gets the brunt of that anger.
But REAL truth...I doubt it. They haven't uncovered their real truth.

just my .02

Christy

serendipity · ~*Service Worker*~

i have heard that alcoholism is a thinking disease. proven by the fact that alcoholics can put down the drink, never drink again but still have the disease. so, i would tend to think that the drug of choice really doesn't matter. an alcoholic is an alcoholic drunk or sober forever.

isabela40 · Senior Member

Once again an interesting topic!

As you know I posted a similar thread. Since I have gotten my responses I have had more time to think and reflect...

I think that what you posted is correct up to a point. Alcohol lowers your inhibitions so that what you cerebral cortex usually filters out of your thoughts...comes spilling out of your mouth. Like that old saying "children and drunks always tell the truth". LOL.

I used to tell my daughter when she was a kid "Not everything that comes up into your head needs to fall out of your mouth!". We all have fleeting thoughts and feelings that come into our heads at the most inopertune times! But they are just that, fleeting, our socialization process has taught us which thoughts to entertain and which not.

With drunks all of these fleeting thoughts that normally come up into the brain, which society says is wrong to say, fall right out of their mouth often.

However, when my husband is really drunk, to the blackout out stage I think a different process is going on. I think at this point he is in a surreal conscious state, almost like a dream state where his mouth is still connected. I have done a ton of research about it and continue to do so. In this semi-conscious state he has little control over his brain or mouth. It is like dreaming with your mouth working.

When my husband first starts to drink he is normally very happy, content, even sweet and complimentary. My daughter loves to see him this way, although I hate it since it is phony. In his sober moments my husband is a rather serious, stern type of reflective person. However, as he continues to drink and the alcohol begins to soak his brain he turns "ugly" very nasty, wild, crazy, mean spirited and vocal. The change is IMMEDIATE and can be a quite disconcerting.

I don't think he is merely "telling the truth about what he really feels" in this state. I think he is nearly in a dream state and his thoughts are jumbled. He has barked like a dog, told me he loved me, told me he hated me, told me he is leaving me, told me he wants to be married for 50 years, etc. like a dream, contradictory and nonsensical.

However, through ALL of these differing states of consciousness I DO firmly believe that they DO maintain a certain sense of control, as in to not go too far. I have totally banned any curse words, or vulgar words from my home. He has learned to respect that and holds to it.

Once he sort of admitted to this.

One day he was drunk and acting like a total idiot and jerk. I told him to go to his room (LOL). He began to run his mouth about who am I to tell him what to do blah blah blah. I said "I am NOT telling you what to do, I am merely reminding you to remove yourself from the living room when you are "not acting right" as you asked me too. Then he went to his room.

The next day he asked "What happened yesterday? I remember you being upset but I don't remember why...I JUST REMEMBER THAT I KNEW SOMETHIGN WAS NOT RIGHT AND IT WAS TIME TO GO TO MY ROOM". And he was so drunk he had a blackout and still had the precense of mind to remember that much.

I also see a very very sad general decline in my husband's overall moral code and scruples. I think this is part of a general mental decline when you continually abuse your brain chemistry and body. This moral decline is evident in both his drunken and sober states.

Probably Mel Gibson suffers from the same condition, a general moral and mental decline. My husband also seems to to suffer from a general form of paranoia, which seems to be common in long term alcoholics.

I really think he belives and feels all of those horrible things he said about Jews, but just keeps a lid on it most of the time.

If it was all said at random...why the Jews? The classic scapegoat for bigots for countless years. If it was random thoughts in his head, why not pick a hate for cucumbers? Or olive trees?

I learn more and more from this list...

Since my husband has not yet been to AA and learned to blame the alcohol for his problems, he still admits to being responsible for all that he says. He NEVER says "it was the alcohol talking". He will say something like "I am sorry, I was very tired and did not control my thoughts well, I will work on it". Or he will say "I will work on not being so angry so that when I am "tired" (his word for drunk) it does not slip out so easily".

There are the true and honest words from someone who has never read a single thing about AA and who knows nothing about its teachings.

Funny how he has no problem taking responsibility for every single word he says drunk or sober...yet so many people say that it is 'just the alcohol talking".

My husband has plenty of gumption to say ANYTHING that he thinks and feels. He is a 6 foot three body builder and I have yet to ever see him intimidated even once by anyone. He does NOT need alcohol to say anything that he is too timid to say while sober. He is usually very embarrassed at what slips out of his mouth while his inhibitions are lowered...

For him alcohol is more of a truth serum than anything else.

I guess for everyone it is different. Maybe some people do drink in order to find the courage to say and do things they could not do or say otherwise.

Isabela

Diva · ~*Service Worker*~

As always, Isabela, a well thought out and well worded reply. Would that we could figure these characters out. Life would be easier I think. Take care girlfriend. Diva

Becky1 · ~*Service Worker*~

Diva, I appreciate your viewpoint, and have given it a lot of thought. However, I have given it a lot of thought. I am not an A, but I do know, during the years that I was drinking and going out a lot with my friends, that I was not myself. I am normally (or used to be when I was younger!) pretty shy and quiet. When I was out with my friends in a bar, I drank so I could talk to guys, dance, have "fun". And, yes, under the influence, I did things I am not particularly proud of. I am more of a homebody, but under the influence, I was able to transform myself into a wild, carefree spirit, one that men were invariably attracted to. But that was not who I really was. And, since I am not an A, once I sobered up the next afternoon, I returned to my responsibilities and raising my daughter as a single mom. But, looking back, I took a lot of risks I would not normally take, I did some things (not illegal) that make me feel very lucky to be alive today. This was pretty much a weekly thing for me back then.

I just know, as Isabela stated, that when my husband drinks the change in him is just as dramatic as mine was. The only difference I think, is that I am not an A, and he is. I can turn it down anytime, he cannot.

Thanks for making me think, and take a look at what this applies to me and my situation.

Love in Recovery,

Becky1

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