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So my daughter who was in rehab and returned home Wednesday is back to her old ways. I was holding on to hope after speaking with her and her therapist on Monday that she was going to follow through. She seemed so sincere. PHP for 2 weeks and IOP after. She was supposed to go to PHP yesterday and did not. Tells me that she hates groups and is going to do individual therapy. I told her that her return home was contingent upon the promises we both made and she needed to stick to hers. After hours of her bashing me telling me that I am her problem the reason she does drugs and her biggest trigger. I never loved her bla, bla bla - she is supposedly going to go today (I have my doubts) - anyway, I have to be at work so I can't be sure that she is going (and maybe that's a good thing?) Any rate, if she doesn't go is it cold hearted for me to tell her she needs to find sober living or a room and leave my home because it was so serene and quiet while she was away and now it's back to chaos. I'm struggling here - she has always been able to manipulate me in the past - I feel like she is angry because it isn't working anymore - She is also attempting to isolate which I know is a big hard NO for an addict. Not really asking advise, just venting. Thanks for listening, I can't ride this roller coaster any more!
(((Mama))) - I too am sorry to hear of the stress and more that this disease returned to your home. I can so relate. There are no right/wrong answers in working this program, imposing boundaries, detaching and choosing serenity over insanity. I'm sending positive thoughts and prayers your way for you and all...take good care of you!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Teach me to have hope huh? Guys I'm fried. I feel like all the peace I had when she was gone is back - she is blaming me for everything which is typical, and telling me that she is going to go to PHP and use just so she gets kicked out. I am not arguing with her, I told her she made a commitment she needs to stick to it. She needs to move out of my home, she has so much chaos going on in the wake of active addiction, it is killing me to watch her - I really thought the fact that she reached out to rehab and went was the answer - its not. As long as she is blaming me or her father or her brothers or anybody else for her problems, she is a time bomb waiting to go off. Can't have that I need peace.
Now you actually have to take the steps to get it back... and that is damn hard as a parent. A parent's role is to nurture, teach. love. Addiction lays waste to all whom are involved. In enforcing your boundaries, you are nurturing yourself (putting on that O2 mask) and ultimately, nurturing your offspring too (respecting them enough to know they can make it through). By enforcing your boundaries, you are teaching your daughter that at some point she needs to be self-reliant - that means the buck stops with her. No blame game. It is time to be an adult now. She has the tools, the resources... now it is up to her to do the hard work. It is hers alone.
And finally, it is ultimately LOVE that is shown when you maintain healthy boundaries. Love for yourself (your health and peace of mind), and love for your daughter as well - except they won't recognize it when in active addiction. So the next phase will be very difficult for the both of you.
I know you want validation. You are a good parent. Your boundaries seem healthy and not unreasonable. Keep educating yourself on this disease... b/c going to rehab is just one piece of their puzzle... many times it is not "The Answer" we think it's going to be. I believe knowledge helps to keep our expectations reasonable.
I am wishing you clarity of thought.
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"The wolf that thrives, is the one you feed." - Cherokee legend
"Hello, sun in my face. Hello you who made the morning and spread it over the fields... Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness." Mary Oliver
It is hard - especially when she tells me the only time I'm nice to her is when she's in rehab and that 's all i care about is sending her away. Funny, she sent herself away I had nothing to do with it. It's hard to keep the voices out of my head that validate her anger - I know I've made mistakes as a parent and she just throws it in my face every chance she gets. She has legal issues right now, that scares me, but it is going to be on her to solve them. They won't give her a public defender cause her father and I make too much money (weird I thought that only applied to minors, apparently it applies to adults as well - it's household income) I offered to LOAN her the money for a lawyer - said she isn't going to court so it doesn't matter. My gut says let her fall - my heart says - that's your baby. Gotta listen to the gut I KNOW - but it is so freaking hard.
I've been in your exact situation so many times through the years. And I know firsthand that heartache and frustration.
No matter how many times it's happened I've still never let go of hope for my kids. I did have to let go of my expectations though. I used to convince myself that "this time will be different" but the heartache and pain when it wasn't was too much to keep putting myself through.
I've tried to do things in every way possible. I've let them come home,have not let them,have kicked then out, have called the cops on them,etc. There's no wrong or right way. If there was we would all do that and these things wouldn't happen. I now try to do what I think is best at the time I make the decision.
I don't know where you live but where I am it has only depended on my kids income and not household income for a public defender. You can do a Google search to find out how it works where you are.
I waited a bit to respond further because reading your posts made me cry. I so totally know what you're going through right now.
She got arrested in PA where the law is a person must have an income that is no more than 25% above the poverty line, based on the number of people in the household. so not sure exactly what that means and trying to get someone on the phone is crazy hard during all this virtual nonsense. Not really the issue though if she doesn't want to go to court, no lawyer, even Perry Mason will be able to help her. It is heartbreaking and I know she is bipolar which makes this even more heartbreaking. I appreciate the commiseration from everybody, I know we all know that heart wrenching feeling of not being able to do anything to help. It is brutal to sit back and watch your loved ones crash and burn. I won't ever lose hope Sunny Frogs but you are correct, gotta let go of the expectations (never thought of it that way) and I did expect things to be different - so here we go on the loop again. She now wants to get a room but not sober living. I told her to go ahead and find one I really don't care anymore where she lives, it just can't be with us. At least not while she is still having that "stinking thinking" she things because she is clean and hasn't used and isn't jonsing that she's got this under control. I know that isolation and anger will catapult her right back to the pills. All I can do is give it to God, pray, sit back and watch.
It sounds to me like you can not live with an alcoholic and that is a perfectly understandable position. There's no need to justify it to your daughter. I do beleive regardless of what intervention is or isn't in place, communication style is as important as communication content. In our programmes that is expressed as say what you mean but don't say it mean. You are now enmeshed with her recovery and monitoring it the way one would monitor drug and alcohol use. Understandable, but does it hinder or help?
I think it is a mistake to make recovery a condition of a relationship. It simply isn't our business to get involved with that. She's an addict and all of those observations one makes about addiction are valid but at the same time, largely they're none of our business.
I have found it helpful when the same old bs appears, to ask myself whose bs is it anyway? Looking always for the part I can control which is always and only mine.
This how the disease works mamamary and expectations is a great subject to dwelve into. I got into that subject after my alcoholic addict completed treatment. I was given the lesson of keeping my expectations low and working my own program. This is a life threatening disease turn the outcome over to HP. (((hugs)))
(((Mary))) - I have written here many times about that 'disconnect between my head and my heart'. In my case, there was a part of me, deep down that confused parenting with rescuing. I knew better in my mind - every rescue I performed would prolong the pain/suffering for all involved. Yet, my heart felt that I 'needed to do it' because it's my child who's going to fall and possibly fail.
The God of my understanding hit me upside the head one day with a 2 x 4 - 'you can not care more about their health, future, life than they do.' This simple thought popped into my head and helped me to realize that I was carrying the load for another who should rightly carry their own load.
I suppose all states are different. We stopped claiming our kids on taxes at 18; allowing them to file/pay (or not) independent of us. We also took them off our car insurance, mobile phones, etc. We made sure that any legal consequences they experienced or were to experience would not blow back on us. When they did require legal assistance, they did qualify for Public Defender(s).
These were some things I could change. I could not change this disease in my kids nor could I change their perceptions, denials, choices, etc. We did learn through pain, trial and error that all of us are better off not residing in the same home. Sending you tons of positive thoughts, prayers and energy. So, so sorry for the pain this disease is bringing your way.
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
It is more than boundaries. I think it is being able to see the disease in full relief
I don't think it is possible to do that when you are dealing with people who know how to wound
Detachment is really hard no matter what it is.
Detachment is part of the way of having self worth
You have to have some self worth when you want to have boundaries
This is some of my criticism of the rehab process. The alcoholic addict is away. You miss them. You get really hopeful. You are not allowed to talk to them very much
Them they come out and you are on your own
Upscale rehabs have after care. Regular rehabs open the door.
I am not denying it is extremely hard to deal with anyone alcoholic in the home. There are a whole other set of ways alcoholics can be intrusive there. However when you.sre under assault you have to protect yourself
Not being reactive is some of the hardest things Inhsve hackers to do. Setting boundaries another one
However I do absolutely find that examining my people pleasing excessive need for appreciation was an incredible vulnerability
I may not he in my home with an alcoholic at the moment but I deal with alcoholics daily.
I have to be strong to go out in the world. There are people who love to trample all over you
The choice unfortunately is in feeling empathy for the alcoholic because their behavior is destructive. Then feeling empathy for myself. I don't deserve to be out in that dilemma.
The really sad part I'd these rehabs sell all these statistics of success. I know people who did get sober in them but they had created a support system for themselves
My support system is primarily myself. I was not in my.own corner before. I got thrashed psychologically regularly
Now cetainky some people attempt it
They just fo not get that far these days
It is indeed extremely upsetting to have people you have given so much to turn around and be very abusive
However in certain people who have zero recovery that is the way they live sweet one Second. Vicious attacks the next
They never move out of that modality
No one will attack you more assiduously than an addict protecting his stash.
Some people live to attack and wound others. Alcohol brings out the dark side in people.
Maresie, I mean no offense but you have already told me you don't have any children. So unless a person has actually lived it they can't truly comprehend what it's like.
As I said,it's complex when it's your child.
I am offering comfort and support to a fellow member. Feel free to PM me if there's anything you would like to discuss further. I prefer to keep this thread on topic.
Actually I don't think.the topic is solely about children
The recovering alcoholic comes out of rehab. For some reason many.of them come out with no plan
While they are in rehab here are these periodic communications. They are usually urgent
Then they come out and there is very little follow up .
The state of substance abuse treatment is not that great that is linked you can afford to go to an expensive clinic. Thentnete us follow up. Then there is counseling for the parent and significant other
No one who deals with an alcoholic coming out if rehab gets it easy. We have had numerous discussions about this on this board
Certainly having a child is an experience all of it's own
Having a significant other come out of rehab is one of them
Never mind the fact it us hard. You can be aye that clinic billed at minimum 11,000 dollars for the treatment
That is the basic cost to medical
A phone call to the parent would follow up would. It best of order
Neither would a treatment plan for the recovering addict.
Maresie
Sunny Frog - I love to read your posts, they make me realize that I am not alone in this battle of heart and mind and they give me hope that I can rise above this. When my husband was drinking heavily and deep in his addiction, I grant you, it was hard, but he was not my child, he was my husband so I was mad (yes, I felt badly for him I knew he didn't want to be an alcoholic, but he was an adult) - once my kids started - it was a whole other level of hard. Watching that little life (those little lives in my case) that you brought up, sacrificed for, and nurtured all those years get attacked by a beast like addiction just completely sucker punches you and takes your breath away. I watched both my husband and my son destroy themselves and then be lifted back to sanity through the work of Jesus Christ, I am not seeing that work or that desire in my daughter, she's my baby and my only girl, it's killing me. So please, keep posting!
(((Mary))) - it's true in my case as well. I met/married my guy in recovery. He relapsed between the birth of our 2 kids, and never returned to recovery. His disease has been slowed dramatically because of health issues, and I was disappointed and angry yet found his disease and journey easier to accept.
When it arrived for my kids, I too felt a whole different level of pain. Fear for their lives, futures, etc. is much, much worse in my case simply because, as you share, I birthed them, raised them, and know what's genuinely in their heart. Even though they are adult ages, my heart, mind and soul 'sees' them as my little people and watching this disease take hold is a pain almost greater than words.
I find hope daily in the reality they are still here and they have a journey destined by their HP. I pray for them and do believe in the power of hope, miracles and recovery. You truly are not alone and there is hope and help available!!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Iamhere - When hope departs I no longer want to live. As long as there is breath there is hope. My hope is in my higher power (who happens to be Jesus Christ) and I have watched him snatch both my husband and my son out of the depths of addiction into a life of light, love and sobriety. I know He will do the same for my daughter - I just sometimes get tired of His timing and want everything in mine. God loves our children more than we do, they belong to Him and are only a gift to us. Keep on hoping and praying!
It does help when we know we're not alone, doesn't it?
My son will be going to sober living very soon. I hope and pray he does well. That's all I can do is hope and pray. I have no expectations other than to hopefully get to see him in person after he's off restrictions and hug him. It's been a long time.
I am in total agreement with what SunnyFrogs is saying. I have a daughter who was a lovely cuddly little girl who got in with a bad fellow who was on drugs and using and dealing and he got her hooked on first cocaine and then crystal meth and my life went to hell when that happened. Its different when you have a child its a different battle. Because its only natural to protect and to nurture and to love and to encourage I wanted her to have the life I never had. The buck was going to stop with me. I was a good mom I know I was. I worked from home so I could be with her when she got home from school. I did the best I could with the tools that I had and the mistakes that I made, we would sit and talk. We would have our fights but we always knew we loved each other. Maybe, looking back, I was too gentle with her as I did not want her to suffer the violence and the terror in the abuse that I did
I never hit her. I would take away privileges. I would let her suffer the consequences. Like for example many nights on a school night she would want to stay up late with her friends or watching TV with me and I would tell her--tomorrow is school and you are going if I have to drag you out of bed tired, you are going. And I would sometimes have to do that just literally physically pull her out of bed and point her to the shower. Consequences thats what I tried to teach her and until she met her ex, she seem to be thriving and doing well, straight a student in school she was in the gifted class. I went to the PTA meetings and all of that because I wanted to be involved in her life but yet I wanted to let her experience and learn life
When she got on drugs she was living with her boyfriend who would be her husband so I didnt find out about it for a while. At first she would visit me all the time. At first she would share with me up until she got hooked with him, we shared and we talked openly with each other and then all of a sudden little by little by little she became more secretive and angry for no reason and just weird behavior and I realize there was something really wrong so I checked with Friends who knew her and they verified my greatest fear and that was she was doing drugs. And Im not talking about smoking marijuana I am talking about cocaine was the first one so I had a big choice to make
At first I tried to reach her and talk to her I begged and I pleaded and I told her about her uncle and what the drugs were doing to his body and his life and does she really want the same for her? I tried everything and then finally I had to just like I am here said detach my head from my heart or something to that effect anyway I had to detach with a lot of love. But I was in a quandary as to what to do. Then the answer came to me years later when she got arrested and got thrown in jail and shes calling me on the phone begging me to get her out and I confess at first I did. Then I realized Im not letting her suffer the consequences. By helping her I am giving her the impression that her problem is not that bad. So I began withdrawing my help. I began letting her pay the price. So the very last time she went to jail, I stood back and I let the judge sentenced her to one year in jail and of course she begged me and pleaded with me to help her and I said--no! You are going to suffer the consequences of your deeds and all I can do is pray that you learn your lessons before this kills you--so I let them take her to jail
She got into program because basically she knew she had to. And being forced to be sober and working the narcotics anonymous program, she did manage to work through a lot of stuff and she did divorce the husband who was still doing drugs. But she changed. Not all endings are happy in that relationships are restored because I still go to program and she quit it when she got out of jail. In other words, she worked the program to get an earlier release which in 10 months they let her out and she quit the program. She told me she did not need it anymore. I told her that was her choice and that I would not interfere because I am powerless. I also told her that I need my program and I am going to work my program. At first things are OK at least I had hoped they would be between her and me. But my working the program and my sincerity about it makes her uncomfortable so she has basically kicked me to the curb and there again I had to love her and let her go. As long as shes sober I can take comfort in that. So we just never know what the outcome is going to be but I do know that I would never ever allow an active alcoholic or a drug addict in my home again. In fact, they would have to be sober and working a very very strong program for at least five years before I would put myself vulnerable. Shes sold off all my moms jewelry I have my moms wedding ring and that is it. For the drugs, she sold off a lot of stuff that I wanted to keep in the family. She did a lot of damage mostly emotional to me and I forgive her. But with her behavior, borderline abusive to me because I think she resents me letting her go to jail. It was my way of saving her life and I do not regret it because she has managed to stay sober since. But its her choice not to want contact with me so I have to let go and let God
So yeah, dealing with a child is a whole different ball of wax its so hard to let go with love and forgiveness but just because I love and forgive her, I dont have to be in the line of fire with her abusive treatment and put downs, to her I am a lowlife because I still need the program so that must mean I am weak and not strong like her. That is her train of thought. I have to keep telling myself what others think of me is none of my business. It hurts to not hear from her. But I have to accept reality and move on and carry on with my life without her I guess.
All of this has taught me, this experience with her and my mom being an alcoholic and my brother, both my brothers--one an alcoholic and the other a serious heavy duty drug addict. I have decided to put my serenity first and my safety first and keep a distance yet loving but keeping my distance and my home and my pets and my possessions and of course myself, safe
My active alcoholic brother wants to come see me and I told him that I cannot have him staying here at my house because he is an active alcoholic who also quit his program because he no longer felt he needed it and now he is back drinking and has been drinking and I choose not to have active users and drinkers around me because I am aging and the stress is bad for my health
Mama Mary you will find a way to work this through. She is your child and always will be but sometimes it is unsafe to have even the most beloved around us. Program will show you the Way. I pray that you keep coming back because youre worth it
One of them.being a heroin addict. She was really pretty bad prostituting herself. Had a real abusive boyfriend. I saw her shoot up in public.msny many times. Her whole life was drugs, really exploitive people being beaten up.abd going to jail .
I have to.say she was the last person I thought would get sober. However at some point she adopted a dog who showed up at some place she was staying. The dog was at many levels neglected. I will not go into how.
Gradually she got disenchanted with the lifestyle. She got sibe, found somewhere to live and started putting a life together
Now it is a few years down the road and indeed she is a totally different person. Now she is going to college.
Her entire life is turned around.
I would never imagine that she would turn her life around. I am still flabbergasted at her recovery
For some people there is indeed a chance of recovery. There is indeed always hope and there is no knowing when someone can turn things around Every one of the peer group she hung out with have remained a user. Everyone of them. Indeed several of them died as a result of their addiction. That is in the ways adults die, unceremoniously sordid ways. Indeed one of her peer groups murdered one man stanbed another and attacked yet another one witn a hammer. Needless to say her fate was not as promising.
I certainly pray for your daughter as I do many.other addicts
SunnyFrogs. I just saw your post about your son and I love your attitude about him that you can just hope and pray and have no expectations other than you get to see him and give him a hug. I always believed and still do believe that as long as there is life, there is hope but like you, I am very very low expectations when it comes to my beloved brother and his drinking. He goes MIA every now and then and his good friend is Nice enough to keep me posted on how he is doing but I just have zero expectations about him getting back into recovery, I just love him with a lot of detachment, I hate the disease but I love my brother. He has a good heart. Mama Mary you hang in there--I think you have a pretty good grasp on what the situation is here and please know that you are not alone and please keep coming back
Yes,mamalioness,where there's life there's hope,I feel that way too.
Having high expectations was just too painful for me to continue doing that to myself.
I have 3 alcoholic brothers. I don't have any of them in my life. Each one is so lost in their disease they became too scary and dangerous to be around. I have hope one day they will all turn things around though.
Honestly I can't even imagine what it would be like if they didn't drink. That's all I've known them to do since we were kids. I wish I could have some type of relationship with them but it's not possible really.
Sunny. I so relate to what you are saying here. Ive got a youngest brother who is so bad with hard drugs I literally had to separate myself from him because he would make inappropriate sexual remarks at me because he was so high and I just had to completely disconnect. That is a big trigger for me and oh my goodness I shared it with my alcoholic brother who was absolutely horrified that that happened to me and he said that he was disconnecting from him to because, and I had to laugh, here he is a drunk. But even HE said that was too much for him. So yeah some people even though they are relatives, are just so toxic, they suck the energy out of you and its just not healthy to be around them. I send peace and Goodwill to the youngest one and the oldest one who fantasizes about killing me in a very gross way, he is also a heavy heavy drinker, alcoholic and my books, anyway I had to threaten that if he drives through Texas and stops at my door we have a stand your ground rule where I can use deadly force if he were to show up at my door because he has threatened to murder me and I dont mean just a bullet in my head. So my brother next to me and I are basically the lone rangers because we dont want anything to do with the eldest or the youngest. Even my one that I am best friends with, he has standards. He may be an alcoholic but he has got good standards and he supported me 100%. But I still as much as I love him, I still will not take his calls after a certain hour in the evening because I know hes drinking. Right now he is MIA I have no clue where he is and I just remit him to the universe. And I just have to detach with love. He and I were such good friends all of our lives. I protected him and then when he got big enough he protected me but yeah theres not much we cannot share about him and me and it grieves my heart that he is drinking himself into an earlier death. I think the only thing that saves him is that he eats like a bear coming out of hibernation. I mean that guy eats and thats what he does after he drinks but then he goes on these binges and thats when I worry because something could happen to him but you know theres nothing I can do about it so I have to just say OK what will be will be
Youve got some great posts I always like to read you because you just tell it like it is. Im glad youre here
Sorry to hear all that mamalioness. I can definitely relate to it though.
I'm working on creating a good,healthy circle of supportive people in my life. It's kinda hard to do though when all I've ever known are those that are unhealthy. I'm beginning to learn the difference though....but so s-l-o-w-l-y.
Sunny. Hugs back at you and yeah it takes time for us to assert our rights to healthy and loving and positive and healing relationships. My sperm donor was a serial predator against young girls and I fear that my youngest brother could be one as well I dont know with the drugs you cant tell is it the drugs or is it him. I just feel there is something very very dark and sick about him because Ive seen the worst drunks in the world and they dont make inappropriate sexual remarks at their own sisters so to me I think he is just toxic , God bless him, but I will never allow him near me. I wont take his calls in fact he lost his phone number again so I dont have to worry because if he should try to put a call in to me it will automatically go to voicemail but yeah inappropriate sex remarks are a trigger to me and I deserve not to be exposed to that and thats what keeps me strong is that I tell myself rose, you dont deserve this. You deserve positive and loving and healing people in your life. And I just assert that and thats what keeps me strong and moving forward in a healthier direction but like you said it is slow in coming but with practice it gets easier because youre not doing it to hurt them youre doing it to take care of yourself and protect yourself and be the loving parent to yourself that you didnt have Growing up and thats the way I look at it
