I couldn't do it on my own either! I do believe many regulars here absolutely know what they are talking about. I stick around because there is such good recovery here.

The only data point I personally can give you is that, for me, I worked -- and still work -- the program and it has worked for me. I'm involved here, also in real-life Al-Anon meetings and service, also in contact with friends I've made during the process. It all helps.

I think of the program the same way as an exercise routine. I have some exercises I do daily that help manage and prevent pain from my arthritic hip. Doing them every day is really working to keep pain at bay. It's not a cure, but it sure helps. I can move through my life freely. The same with Al-Anon. I've heard Al-Anon described as pain management for those who live or have lived with alcoholism. If I exercise Al-Anon every day, it reduces the pain from my past and gives me a more pain-free today that I can fully enjoy.

I am glad you are here on the journey with us!

Wb (((sunnyfrogs)) glad you did.  Keep coming back, keep sharing, keep recovering. TT

 

I hear you,sunny.I know how you feel becaause I am right where you are.I have alot of problems right now,the biggest one being that I am married to a recovering alcoholic, who has dementia.I guess that might be better than an active alcoholic with dementia,but I don't know,and I never want to find that out.This is the most difficult thing I have ever had to deal with in my life.In the past 30 years of his 'sobriety', I have tried alanon many times but never stayed with it.I do know,however, that it really does work when you work it because between 2006-2009,I really worked it.Those were the happiest years of my life I recently realized.I have not found any other way out from the misery.I tried church.I tried self help books.

So what I am saying is that in my 50 years of marriage to an alcoholic and years with a mostly alcoholic family,the only thing I have found that really helps me and really changes my life,my thinking,my stress etc, is alanon.It is the only thing that is out there that I have found that understands what I have been going through,who I am,what I deal with,and shows me a pathway out.

As you said,I cannot do this on my own.I have tried and tried and I am tired of it.I know that working the alanon program is the way out.They say the program is simple but not easy.That is true.Anything worth having is worth working for.There is alot that I have to do.No one in the program can work it for me.They will help.They will understand.They will share their experience,strength and hope.And that is invaluable.It is so comforting to talk to or read the words of  a person who really understands me and can offer suggestions of what has worked for them.But working the program is on ME.I have to do the work.Go to the meetings,even if they are on line right now.Work the steps.There are 12 of them and I cannot rush thru them.I am on step 1 right now and I am taking my time.Almost every day something new is revealed to me.Read the literature.I have to really apply myself as if I am going for a degree in college.Except there is no degree.I will never graduate but my life will get better.It is important to have a Higher Power also.

Do yourself a favor,sunny.Stay with Alanon.Work the program.Let people help you.I tried being an island and have been very lonely trying to do it all.I surrender.I'm waving the white flag.

Iris

Heya Sunnyfrogs! Great to see you back and you have to keep coming back because your avatar makes me grin from ear to ear! I love that MIP is a safe place for us to share our ESH and take breaks from life while learning how to live life on life's terms! And yes - the pandemic is certainly making all things a bit more complicated! Thank God for the concept of One Day at a Time - saves my sanity on a regular basis!

(((Hugs)))

((((Sunnyfrogs))))

That sounds scary. First, are you safe now? You and your kids safety are paramount.

Someone said something to me here that just about drove me crazy at first... 'Nothing changes if nothing changes.'
But you know what? They were absolutely correct. At the time, I didn't want anything to change while wanting everything to change, so I didn't want to accept what they were saying. In other words, I didn't want to be the one who changed. But in the end, I was the only person I could change... not my spouse.
Is this the life you want, right now? In 5 years? 10?
If not, then changes need to happen. Only you will know what those changes will end up being. Only you know what you can tolerate.
When I stopped feeling safe in my own home, and was ready to accept that slogan, "Nothing changes if nothing changes," I left.

I hope today/tonight is better for you.

&

Thanks guys.

First I want to say yes I'm safe and no,there's no kids here,my children are adults.

Nothing changes if nothing changes is what I kept repeating to myself yesterday but somehow I let it turn into just "nothing changes". And then I became hopeless and allowed myself to be pulled into his s*it storm.

And detachment,I know that's absolutely necessary. I was doing pretty good with it until this recent family emergency. It's been too difficult to keep my focus in the midst of it.

It's all a very well played game on his part. If he can keep me upset,push my buttons, then he can take the focus off what he's doing and try to convince me I'm the problem. Smashing a pan at 5 did the trick.

I'm not the problem but I do see I am part of the problem. It takes two to keep this madness going,I gotta stop playing my part.

I do have some plans in the making.It will take time for them to pan out. This pandemic makes everything even more difficult.

Thanks again.

Hi Sunny. Please know you are not alone. We are all here to support you and each other. Things sound really tough for you at the moment but what I hear is someone who recognises that your AH is pushing your buttons and recognising that you are responding plus someone who recognises that you do have some options even if it feels like you cant action them right now. I just walked in from a beautiful walk in the countryside to be greeted by my AH in all his glory so I am just going to walk straight out again and find a beautiful sunset to watch. I can choose not to engage with him (he is spoiling for a fight) because I know only too well where that will lead. Is this the life I want for myself? No. But like you I am doing steps day by day and sometimes minute by minute to craft the life I do want. Someone on here said to me yahoo you always have other options and that mantra is keeping me going along with the nothing changes if nothing changes. I am changing and it is working and it will for you too. Virtual hugs ((()))). Joanne

SF, more than anything, I for one am glad to hear you are safe. In the end, that's what counts during an episode or crisis -- one's personal safety well-being, and not being in harm's way so to speak. Period. That said, I've often felt that when "in it" -- right there and then, during a episode or crisis, in a volatile, uncontrollable situation, all program potentially goes out the door. Safety is concern one and only. It's like the old cliche, everyone has a plan...until they punched in the face! LOL.

When it gets really bad -- like you described -- detachment is sometimes the answer. Sometimes it's the needed answer, necessary answer, and potentially the only answer. My wife was once very drunk, ranting and raving, nothing out of the ordinary...but then it escalated...my typical program reaction, of detaching, which meant politely and respectfully leaving the room, going to another room, by myself, just didn't work. I didn't ignore her. I "did" my boundary, calmly and respectfully said I was not going to engage with her, and I left the room. She followed. From room to room. I couldn't get away. I went outside and she followed, but the yelling and screaming started to alert the neighbors. While I was initially "afraid" the police would come to the house, my rational thought was "OK, perhaps that's what has to happen. Perhaps she has to experience, and suffer, if need be, the consequences of her own decisions and actions." Well, the police didn't come. I went back in the house to lock myself in my home office (this room had a lock on it). We had a room in the house that was specifically my home office, and it actually had a convertible couch that doubled as a bed, so spending the night there would not have been a problem. However, if the situation escalated even more, I thought about getting my "overnight bag" and going to a local hotel. Regardless, the best plain plans go completely awry.

When I got back into the house, and proceeded to go into my home office...in the blink of an eye, I turned around and my wife was standing in the doorway with a very large knife! Now, this was a very critical and defining moment, not just in my marriage, but in my life. While I had no reservations about me being able to "disarm" my wife, I made a decision not to do so. However, let me be very clear...while I made a decision not to disarm her, I also made a decision that I had no desire nor was I willing to even consider...GETTING STABBED WITH A LARGE KNIFE!!!

My point being...while it may not be apparent at the time, and it certainly will not be an option...there is always some option. It may not be ideal, but it is there. While I didn't have my overnight bag, and it wasn't a great option, I was able to convince her to walk out of the office with me and we would calmly talk about this. As soon as she turned and walked out of the office, I immediately closed the door, locked it, and I was now safely in my office. She proceeded to yell and scream, she pounded on the door, and began to stab the door. Why I don't know, but she started stabbing the door, as if she would stab it open, stab a whole and be able to reach in and unlock the door, or what. I have no idea! Regardless, within 5 minutes I had climbed out the window and was on one of peaks/roof sections of my roof! I didn't think through this part of the plan as it was too far down to jump off the roof...although in that moment, I did consider it...but only for a few seconds. LOL. I decided to call my neighbor, who I knew had a ladder, and asked him to get his ladder and come to that part of the house (yes, quietly) so I could climb down. He asked a few dozen questions, and I said I would answer them when I was safely on the ground! LOL. 5 minutes later, I am on the ground talking with my neighbor, answering all of his questions. While I had clothes in my car, I didn't have my car keys, or my wallet or credit card, but I asked him to give me a ride to the local hotel, which...had my credit card on file! LOL. Yes, I had stayed there before when I had to detach and actually leave the house. I was hoping they would be able to use my credit card info from their files. My neighbor offered me to spend the night at his house, and while I considered that, I wanted to be alone and didn't want to complicate matters at home with my wife. I called the hotel, they said no problem, they could charge my credit card...and off I went to the hotel...with no clothes, no money, no credit card. Oh well. My neighbor gave me a ride to the hotel, lent me $100, and begrudgingly dropped me off at the Marriott Courtyard Suites.

I slept fine. I did. Because I was already in recovery and living a life of recovery.

You asked "How do I completely detach? Or do I detach? What do I do?" -- and those are valid, great questions. I am sure someone is going to say "your higher power will tell you" or some philosophical, redementary response. So be it. To each their own. And if you try that kind of thing, let me know how that's working for you. Everyone has a plan...until they get punched in the face. Sometimes there is actual, real world scenarios, where actual, real world ACTION must be taken. Or, I could have potentially gotten stabbed! Maybe. Maybe not. Who knows. But I was not taking that chance. And, if someone is in danger, in my experience, one should always take action to alleviate that so they can be safe and not in danger.

So, for me, my experience, yes, detach. At all costs, efforts, necessities. Whatever the case might be. Violence or violent behavior is unknown as to what happens next, unpredictable, and dangerous! So, yes, detach.

No, nothing changes if nothing changes. But we all know that change references US...NOT THE OTHER PERSON!!! Period. You are so right...limiting that to "Nothing Changes" can be very damaging to us. I too became hopeless and helpless...because I too got pulled into the s*itstorm, and all of the drama, chaos, turmoil, and havoc! Once I got centered and balanced, and back on track with my program...I was fine! Thankfully.

You now have awareness!!! Great for YOU!!! You had a slip because of circumstances, a family emergency. That's OK. Yes, it very much is a very well played game on his part. Whether intentional or not, it doesn't matter. That is part of the disease of alcoholism!!! His focus is absolutely to shift, deflect, etc., all of the focus away from himself and onto you...so that he can keep doing what he wants to do (drinking of course!!!), and gaslight the focus, blame, problem, etc., to YOU. Nice try! LOL.

When all this was going on in my life -- BEFORE RECOVERY -- I too was not the direct, actual problem...but I had a role. I was contributing to it. I was perpetuating the drama, chaos, turmoil, and havoc, simply because of the contribution I was making!!! Yes SunnyFrogs, it does take two to keep the madness going! If you stop, then he's responsible for the madness on his own...and you don't have to participate.

When you go to a wedding...just because the music is playing...that doesn't mean you MUST be out on the dance floor dancing!!!

Keep focusing on YOU and keep focusing on your plan. All the best!

Thanks for all the replies,they've helped more than you can know.

I don't like singling out just one reply,but Bo,I got anxiety reading yours but found it helpful.  It made me realize I was just as out of control because I was the one following  him around from room to room and making things worse. I wanted him to see/ hear what an idiot he was for smashing a pan but I guess I was an idiot too.

I've sure got much to learn.

-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Thursday 21st of May 2020 08:45:05 PM

-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Thursday 21st of May 2020 08:46:13 PM

So, so sorry SF for the active disease, all it brings and most importantly - the lack of sleep. What I know about me is when I am awakened unnecessarily and shockingly, I am not my best self (this is being kind - I can be extremely reactive and beyond angry/annoyed)...The HALT comes to mind - Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired - for me, my mind magnifies all things when I lack sleep. I really, really need to just Pause and Pray before I Proceed at moments like this.

Living with 3 active As at one time, with 2 thinking they can cook under the influence was a maddening experience. I was awakened often, and also woke up to some pretty awful messes. I had a healthy fear that one would burn the house down! It did not happen, for which I am grateful.

Detachment is tough, very tough, especially with the disease active as well as the lack of predictability when one is under the influence. My sponsor helped me use the Serenity Prayer often to help with detaching and boundaries. I also learned in recovery to have a Plan B, C, etc. So, I did the following:

- Put a lock on the door to my room, and just locked it when I went to bed.
- Purchased ear plugs, and used them often.
- Had a packed bag, cash stash and necessities in my car always. My keys were always locked with me in my room, as I didn't want anyone deciding a car ride (in my car) was a good idea.
- Ensured I had keys from friends for entry should I need to go.
- Local hotels loaded into my phone in case that felt more better!

My guys have also been known to follow me, raging along the way and I found 2 places they don't follow - the restroom and the laundry room. The former just because and the latter - it's a tight fit for 2 people (for which I am grateful). The disease always seemed worse at night around here and there's no doubt my anxiety level and dread was also worse. I had to practice being calm, staying calm, and letting it all go.

One of my sons broke the door down and I did call the police. I had to call the police a few times until they were retrained by me that idle threats were a thing of the past. When I changed, slowly things changed.

Each situation is different and there's no doubt that if you ever feel threatened, you should exit immediately. I was willing to do so and did do so. As I got better and designed healthy boundaries, I made it crystal clear I would no longer 'live like this/that' and I would also NOT be the one leaving. More police visits and drama before things settled down - part of that was having both of my (adult age) sons move out.

Around here, mine will keep doing unacceptable things until/unless I am willing to enforce my boundaries. I made it crystal clear that I did not view being under the influence as an excuse to ........................................................... (quite the list here). If we do not take action and advocate for ourselves, (let it begin with me), it will continue, at least that was the workings of our dysfunction.

Program basics really helped/help me - Put my needs first! I deserve a peaceful, safe home. I deserve a restful night's sleep. Once I know my basic needs, I then go about figuring out how to make that happen without trying to change, control others. It was very, very hard to change me yet the results were well worth it.

Take good care of you - hopeful that today is better and you got good rest last night! (((Hugs)))

tiredtonite wrote:

---

Sunny, sorry you had a rough night. We really are powerless over other people's unacceptable behavior. The upside is that it can really be a catalyst for making positive changes concerning ourself. These can be the times when I feel hp tapping me that it's time, time to make my move. I don't mean hitting him on the head with the pan  as tempting as that may be. What I mean is that one day you wake up or maybe you haven't gotten to sleep and reality is staring you in the face. You finally get the meaning of "sick and tired of being sick and tired." You don't blow it off as just another unacceptable antic and thank your hp that it's passed now. It stays with you and start digging your way out of that pit of toxic misery and toward more life affirming experiences. At least that's how it went for me. Every action I took toward my Plan B mean't I was moving in a positive direction. Working the steps and calling my sponsor layed the foundation for that becoming a reality some day. It helped my sanity to know I was taking thoughtful actions toward self care and I began to feel less affected by other people crazy actions. Keep taking good care of yourself. You're worth it. ((hugs))) TT

---

 

I like this share more and more each time I read it. Thanks tt!!!

I hit rock bottom and was sick and tired of being sick and tired...and I, out loud, said "ENOUGH...NO MORE"...and yes, I was exhausted. But as soon as I said it...I got an incredible second wind!!!

Never bet against a person's desire to survive...when they truly want to.

Thanks again for the replies,for real,it's appreciated.

Sunny, I think you handled this perfectly ... honestly ... and I'm sorry the response was what it was. I can imagine how hard it is to live around someone in that mood.

You absolutely have a right to your boundaries. We all do. I completely understand "giving in" as a behavior in the past. I had to hit my rock bottom before I was able to state a boundary. But what a huge breakthrough you have made -- being able to state your boundary. That is huge, and I hope you can pat yourself on the back for your courage.

There's a really good book called The Dilemma of an Alcoholic Marriage. It's very small and simple to read. You are not alone. You are right to your boundaries. Big hugs this is big stuff <3

I am celebrating with you!! Looks like you said what you meant and you did not say it mean. unless you did this time but hey, we have to begin boundary setting somehow. for me, when I finally began to practice setting boundaries, I came out swinging.   In recovery, I became aware how I was taught to be a go along to get along girl, a nice girl, a girl who betrayed herself to accommodate the needs and demands of others ... otherwise they wouldn't love me.  that is how I lost myself. 

It was manipulative on their part. when I learned to see "manipulation," there is no more manipulation. we permit ourselves to be true to ourselves instead.

Not sure of your childhood environment but mine was quite dysfunctional. so your post reminded me of the" Laundry List, Characteristics of an Adult Child" (you can google the full list. it comes from a separate group with its own literature, called Adult Children of Alcoholics or ACA. It is not Al-anon literature but helpful nonetheless.)

Characteristic #7:

" We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves. "

Most adult children assume they are wrong whatever the situation might be

and take responsibilty for things that are NOT our responsibility. we might even take on responsibility for the feelings of others

... like a knee jerk reaction to doubt and blame ourselves because of the shaming environment we grew up in.   we were not allowed individuality.

Perhaps you relate to this, and perhaps not.

I just really wanted to come here to say I am applauding you for coming to the fellowship to be validated, applauding you wanting to learn and change.. applauding you for taking care of yourself, you have every right to do that, however you see fit.  even if the whole world doesn't approve.  applause! applause!!

when I took my hands off of him and his lifestyle, I began to expect the same courtesy. I wanted an equal partnership. Live and let live.

-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 23rd of May 2020 11:45:34 AM

-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 23rd of May 2020 11:47:38 AM

SunnyFrogs wrote:

---

He's over it already,it wasn't the end of the world as he was making it seem.

Yay me, that's what I'm thinking and feeling right now. I didn't do something I didn't want to do. I didn't spend hours trying to explain myself, I didn't do it anyway out of guilt. It may seem so simplistic to others but it IS huge for me.

He's actually mowing the yard now. That's an added plus.

---

 

YAY!!! GREAT FOR YOU!!! AMAZING FOR YOU!!! YOU ARE AMAZING!!!

Sunny, Al-Anon published a recent book titled Intimacy in Alcohiolc Relationships. Members share their challenges with all aspects of intimacy (physical, emotional and spiritual.).

we had a local group here, that did an 8-week study on this book last year. some of us had contributed our personal ESH to that book.  you are not alone!

Hey SF - you did awesome! I did get a chuckle outa the 'code word' - snuggle. There are so, so many things I can relate to and communication as well as intimacy are the main 2 areas where "Men are from Venus and Women are from Mars" or vice versa! I can recall many times I was going through life feeling overwhelmed by kids, house, other, life, etc. and mine would suggest 'snuggling'...I have no doubt that I looked at him like he had 3 horns or something!

What I know about healthy relationships is all things go better when there appears to be cohesion vs. adversary. When I was battling the disease and the diseased, my stress and anxiety were high often/always and I let self-care go out the window. Al-Anon suggests (over and over) that we learn how to practice self-care. It's about the basics but it also includes things like this - where we make the best choice in a situation for us vs. to please another, keep peace, avoid confrontation, etc.

So - you done awesome! And while it may have felt wrong or foreign to put you first, over time, as we continue to practice, it feel more natural. I vividly recall pausing long enough to ask myself, "what's the healthy response in this moment?" I still do this, esp. when my first thought is to react. Just pausing long enough to pray before I proceed helps me formulate a healthier response over and over again.

Keep doing you! Keep doing what you're doing! There's never any shame in taking good care of us - it's the healthy thing to do. Snuggle when you want to and when you're ready! Love, light and (((Hugs)))!

Keep it up SunnyFrogs!!! You have such great awareness around who you are, what you are feeling, and what you are facing. You got this!!!