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I have two kids, 9 and 12. I have not had a discussion with them about AH's drinking. My counselor (whom I have not seen in over a year now as she was in a different location) told me that "children see and know all". While I don't doubt that, I have not found the guts to come out and talk to them about dad's behaviors. In recent months it has become harder to "explain away". The mood swings are leading to decisions that are not consistent and the kids are starting to chafe. They don't say it out lout, but I think I see it. That is, I *think* I *think* I see it. Recently, during one less-than-harmonious talk, I told AH that the kids were starting to notice his behavior.
Stupid me thought that, maybe, if he was aware of this, he might try to curb it. Ha ha. I am so dumb. The next time I wasn't around, he asked them if they thought he had "acted weird". They said no. He was so pleased. ("See, it IS ALL in YOUR head.")
Recently, more fall out from his poor decision making (DUI, financial ruin) is causing him to be very unhappy at home. He cries in front of the kids and then he asks the younger one to help him feel better. The younger one does his best (gives him a big hug) but this is worrying me because I feel like the little one is going to feel responsible for dad's feelings. To say I worry about the future ramifications of this, is an understatement.
I have gone as far as saying "dad is having a tough day today. Maybe you should go to your room for awhile". They do this without asking any questions. I haven't said anything else. Part of me wants to stick my head in the sand and hope that they don't realize that other parents aren't like this.
Recently dad came to a school event and, while he was pretty sober, he was also very depressed and looked awful. He stayed away from the other parents and sat somewhere fairly conspicuous near the students; my older kid noticed, and asked him repeatedly to go sit with the other parents. He refused to comply and left. Afterwards, he told kid that kid had made him (dad) feel very bad. Kid had to apologize. Later, I tried to explain to AH that kid is at an age where fitting in is very important, and having your parents clearly not fitting in was not helpiing anything.
I could kind of go on and on, but you all probably get the drift. I guess my question is this: part of me wants to sit with them, give them a hug and say "daddy is having a tough time right now (ok, since two presidents ago), but I don't want you to worry or anything, we're going to be ok". At the same time, that might be more of a promise than I can keep. So what can I say?
Fedora - this is a really, really tough question. I felt (with 2 boys who truly love and have always loved their father) really uncertain what to say and when. I did consult with professionals and it still went way different than planned. My AH had been sober and hid his return to the disease for a long while. Even after caught in the act, he continued to sneak and drink in hiding (he still does). My kids were less than 2 and not yet born when he began drinking again and didn't notice for a long, long while. In my home, each time I tried to have a conversation, they grew defensive and didn't want to hear it or see their father in any light other than their own. As they got to teen-age years, they were grateful that he was often missing, aloof and in hiding as it allowed them to progress in their own disease (the one and same). I don't believe I found the right way and am not even certain what that would be. So many people, children included, do not understand the disease concept and want to just assume poor choices are made by the alcoholic. It's truly a tough situation to be in - perhaps your sponsor who knows more about you than most here has some thoughts? In the meantime, I will certainly send prayers/thoughts your way!
For the record, I was a big embarrassment to my kids just by showing up. Part of that is just how teenagers 'see parents'. I do believe there are some books out there, and some literature that may also be helpful!(((Hugs)))
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I have two kids, 9 and 12. I have not had a discussion with them about AH's drinking. My counselor (whom I have not seen in over a year now as she was in a different location) told me that "children see and know all". While I don't doubt that, I have not found the guts to come out and talk to them about dad's behaviors. In recent months it has become harder to "explain away". The mood swings are leading to decisions that are not consistent and the kids are starting to chafe. They don't say it out lout, but I think I see it. That is, I *think* I *think* I see it. Recently, during one less-than-harmonious talk, I told AH that the kids were starting to notice his behavior.
Stupid me thought that, maybe, if he was aware of this, he might try to curb it. Ha ha. I am so dumb. The next time I wasn't around, he asked them if they thought he had "acted weird". They said no. He was so pleased. ("See, it IS ALL in YOUR head.")
Recently, more fall out from his poor decision making (DUI, financial ruin) is causing him to be very unhappy at home. He cries in front of the kids and then he asks the younger one to help him feel better. The younger one does his best (gives him a big hug) but this is worrying me because I feel like the little one is going to feel responsible for dad's feelings. To say I worry about the future ramifications of this, is an understatement.
I have gone as far as saying "dad is having a tough day today. Maybe you should go to your room for awhile". They do this without asking any questions. I haven't said anything else. Part of me wants to stick my head in the sand and hope that they don't realize that other parents aren't like this.
Recently dad came to a school event and, while he was pretty sober, he was also very depressed and looked awful. He stayed away from the other parents and sat somewhere fairly conspicuous near the students; my older kid noticed, and asked him repeatedly to go sit with the other parents. He refused to comply and left. Afterwards, he told kid that kid had made him (dad) feel very bad. Kid had to apologize. Later, I tried to explain to AH that kid is at an age where fitting in is very important, and having your parents clearly not fitting in was not helpiing anything.
I could kind of go on and on, but you all probably get the drift. I guess my question is this: part of me wants to sit with them, give them a hug and say "daddy is having a tough time right now (ok, since two presidents ago), but I don't want you to worry or anything, we're going to be ok". At the same time, that might be more of a promise than I can keep. So what can I say?
Fedora, I want to acknowledge and compliment you on such an open and honest share. Thank you! You are only as sick as your secrets. One step further is that you are only as sick as the issues -- that impact you and children -- that you leave unaddressed, unhandled, not dealt with, etc. That said, you have every reason to be concerned. Not for the future but for the present! It is happening now! Your children are being impacted now! I read, hear, and see things like this and just feel horrible that children are being impacted. It's one thing for them to see what's going on -- and they see and sense a great deal more than people give the credit for -- but a completely different thing for them to be directly impacted...directly. People say collateral damage, but in my experience it is not collateral -- it is primary! Very direct. The conversations you have with your children are evolutionary, they ebb and flow, they change over time, they have ups and downs, etc.
In my experience, don't let people who don't know you or your kids tell you what your kids may or may not understand. It's one thing if a parent shows up drunk and causes a scene. But your example is something different and that's all I can speak to. So, what do you do? Don't take advice from armchair and internet preachers. TALK TO YOUR SPONSOR! This is the perfect example of what a sponsor's role should be. Someone who knows YOU. Knows your story. Knows your situation. Knows your history. Someone who has worked with you, gets you, can give you insight and guidance as practical application perspective, to you, for you, and your situation. Not simply what someone said worked for them. My situation may sound exactly the same. But it's not!!! One situation is YOU, your kids, your life, your dynamic, and so on...and the other is ME, and my situation, my kids, my life, and so on. If we were sitting face to face in an alanon meeting, and I shared something that resonated with you, we could talk after the meeting, have a back and forth dialog, have a discussion, with tone, inflection, no limitations on words, without secondary communication and so on. You will never get that in a chat room, on a bulletin board, or via email/typing/etc.
Talk to your sponsor. Be the stable, sound, pragmatic, loving, caring, and healthy parent for your children! Do what you do with love in your heart and mind, with caring and compassion, with empathy and understanding...and while "it" may not work out...you can never go wrong! All the best.
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Bo
Keep coming back...
God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...
I was in your position. I can only offer MY ESH. Like Bo mentioned, it was for my situation... take from it what you will.
I tried to cover for my Ex for years... as my son grew into his teen years, he developed some alarming coping mechanisms. It wasn't until I found a good therapist (one who was used to dealing with teens AND understood the dynamics of addiction) that things began to get better with that. I had my own session with this therapist first, so that she could understand the family dynamics and what was going on in the home - I think this was key. But things really began to gel when I stopped trying to hide the situation our family was in, and sat down and had an honest discussion about alcoholism and how it was affecting my kid's father. It was the HONESTY that I feel my kid reacted to the most. He knew without any doubt that he had one stable parent that he could depend on.
I have been told numerous times (and I have read studies too) that kids know... but without the honesty from a stable parent, they attribute everything to something they are doing, or even worse, something they are LACKING. Also, I came to realize all that "hiding" on my part could be looked upon as a form of "gas-lighting." I was telling my Kid that all was well, when he could clearly feel and sometimes see that it wasn't. What I was telling him did not match up to his reality. By being honest (for his age), my Kid understood what was happening, that he did not Cause, he could not Control, nor Cure (the 3 C's) his father's disease, and that he had someone he could depend on... me.
This all being said, I couldn't have done this earlier in my kid's life (I felt) b/c he worshipped the ground his father walked on... he would've never believed what I was telling him (around 9-10 yrs of age). With the help of my sponsor, I came to understand this, and gave myself a pass.
Get some support for you, and perhaps Al-ATeen or a therapist for your kids. This is a long arduous road. I am wishing you Peace today.
PS: I think it is important to note that I made sure NEVER to disparage my spouse in front of my Kid. In discussing the disease, I got help with the wording from the therapist, b/c I didn't want to have my anger and resentments come out in that discussion.
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"The wolf that thrives, is the one you feed." - Cherokee legend
"Hello, sun in my face. Hello you who made the morning and spread it over the fields... Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness." Mary Oliver
I didn't raise any children, but for a time my exAH's teenage daughter came to live with us.
I made sure not to hide that there were problems, but I was VERY MINDFUL of my delivery. I was clear that I didn't want her feeling like she needed to take sides. I presented her with the facts and didn't color them with personal grievances.
I think she appreciated that. It allowed her to come up with her own conclusions on how she felt about her father and his drinking.
Though he and I are divorced, my stepdaughter and I still keep in touch to this day, and we have a loving relationship.
https://nacoa.org/resources/?cat_personas=54
I hope the above link might offer you some right now resources Fedora as you try to approach the issue of discussion with your children.
Thank you, everyone, for the suggestions, and the info.
Things have gone up a notch in intensity since I last posted. I think there's a high possibility the spouse may end up in jail for a short time, so it might not just be a matter of explaining AH's behavior to the kids. We just came back from a court hearing. I learned that in our state, an unusually high BAC leads to jail. His lawyer is going to "work on things". That guy wasn't actually at the hearing, but he sent his partner. He tried to be as encouraging as he could be. "Gonna do our best to keep you out of jail".
I am going to have to think a lot about all this. If I didn't have kids, things would be so much simpler. Sigh.
-- Edited by Fedora on Friday 2nd of August 2019 08:18:46 PM
Sending supportive confident thoughts Fedora. I too have often felt that life would be simpler if I didn't have kids to think about. It's true, but then again, life would also be less deep. You can get through this, and this too will pass, as it unfolds. I had a friend whose partner went to jail for a year and a half, alcohol related. The children were 6 and 4. She had struggled with what to tell them. Eventually settled on the truth. Daddy is in jail. Son's response? What, again?! I think that woke her up. She had never spoken to the kids about anything in detail. But kids have an instinct to find truth, being generally more honest at heart. Friend and family did manage to pull through some very hard years last I heard. I would say as an acoa in a long line of them, what a parent is most blessedly able to do is find a way to talk to children in a way that begins to build open and supportive communication. Only you will know how to start building that inroad of communication with your kids. Mine also asked about dads behaviour when she was 3 or 4. I told her daddies not well. He can't stop himself from drinking the stuff that's bad for him and that's what his sickness is. We started there, we didn't stay there, and I expect that conversation will evolve as our family does and the individuals in our family also. I really strongly believe that good and nurturing communication is so important with children; if it's not there from a young age, it can't be expected to be there when it's needed. There's a recovery saying about eating the elephant one bite at a time. Similarly if communicating around major stressors is what's worrying, maybe start with general relating in communication? Building trust and honesty one baby step at a time. Because that is definitely not something the alcoholic is going to be able to do.
Google this and see what you can learn about the effects of this dysfunction. Your post reminds me of my own childhood and I can tell you, this confusing life has taken decades to unravel, a life of pretending and "Let's just put on our happy masks, act normal and especially not mention the big elephant in the house."
We NEVER talked about our real feelings, instead we denied them. This was how we managed an illusion of control, rather than feel the TRUTH about what was happening. Yep, we are only as sick as our secrets, and there were LOTS of secrets.
I am divorced from my AH after we raised our children similarly. Daddy's moods ruled our home and we all danced around him.
Truly, the best thing I ever did (but not until they were in college) was go to Al-anon. I cannot even begin to share all the benefits that MY changed attitudes have had on all of us. My children are now in their 30s and scattered across the country but when we talk, I amend the past as best I can by practicing "reflective listening" (google it.) Today, I want my children to feel me hearing them, and feel it is safe to do so.
I suggest making as many F2F meetings as YOU can because whenever I made 7 meetings in 7 days, I was an entirely different person.. stable and calm... even though nothing OUTSIDE of me had changed. While it seemed "insignificant" for ME to be in recovery and not my AH, my sponsor explained it this way, "think of a mobile... how when one part of the mobile is touched... the entire thing moves..."
It's exactly like that.
How much to tell the children?? Let THEM talk... Let them tell YOU what they think, feel and know. Let them feel safe. And do look into Ala-teen. (((brightest blessings)))
Hey there,
I have a 10 year old and I live with my active AH as well. I have struggled with this myself. Joining Al Anon really helped me learn a lot of skills. I joined about 4 years ago now. At that time I didn't really see much effect my AH was having on my daughter but I was desperate to shield her from all of it. From being in my group and discussing this with others in the same situation I can tell you that it is purely an individual decision on how much or what to tell your kids. I can only share my experience take what you like and leave the rest. For me to program taught me a lot of skills, slogans, concepts that were so simple in nature it has been easy to pass those on to my daughter. Even when she was small she could grasp some of the concepts of the slogans. The best thing I ever did for my daughter was to join al anon for myself. Once I became more peaceful and able to focus on her and myself more it set a good example for her. I have not directly spoken to my daughter about her father being an alcoholic. For some strange reason I don't feel it is my place to label him or identify it. I feel that is his responsibility. I will however call out unacceptable behaviour. Instead of blaming the drinking I talk to my AH about his actual behaviour. I tell him that it's not fair to put certain things on our daughter. I tell my daughter that taking care of her dad isn't her responsibility. I reassure her that her dad and I are both grown ups and capable of taking care of ourselves. I try to set a good example for my daughter about owning your own behaviour. When I mess up I apologize. When I am in a bad space I own it and call it out. That has helped a lot for us. It has even helped my AH if you can believe it. By working the program and taking responsibility for my own behaviour it has rubbed off on everyone.
There may come a day when I tell her about my AH being an Alocoholic (at least in my eyes) but I'm not there yet. As for other people's parents not acting that way. I've stopped feeling so alone since I joined the program. Al Anon has taught me that Alcoholism is prevalent in a lot of places. My daughter has seen alcoholic behaviour from other people's parents. We were recently at dinner with friends and their kids and one of their daughters said about her father "He's drinking and he never wants to stop drinking to do anything else!" Kids do see it sometimes more clearly than we see it.
Whatever you decided take your time to decide it. Go to some meetings get some perspective and I wish you all the best. HUGS
Ironically we are a pretty open family and it was still dance around the issue. I think I probably said to much at times, I look back and don't regret it. Some of it was pure safety issues .. my ex couldn't make good choices for himself and he certainly did not for the kids. After Alanon we were able to have more reasonable conversations about it because we could talk about everything. Based upon my kids responses individually to their dad, they haven't seen him in a LONG time now. I really don't know how much they remember or what they want from a relationship at this point. I worry my oldest wants acceptance and that's a whole other post I will share later as I'm exhausted and my youngest is extremely apathetic about a lot of things. So knowing what's really going on is difficult to tell. I get a lot of I don't care or I don't know happening.
Anyway .. I am so following this as I am navigating parental waters currently and I need some reminders.
Hugs again S :)
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
