"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

Elabella · Senior Member

HELP WITH BOUNDARIES..

bud · ~*Service Worker*~

(Elabella) Be gentle with yourself and it sounds like inspiring program work. Making a change like setting and enforcing boundaries is going to initially feel uncomfortable. This is normal.

I find as I start to live my boundaries and they become part of my authenticity, I'm able to enforce them with conviction and without guilt. Still practicing, practicing, practicing....

Skorpi · ~*Service Worker*~

(((Elabella)))

I'm very familiar with the name calling and attack on character that followed setting boundaries at first.Someone on this board suggested that I practice my reply to things I expected would happen, so I had a plan. My practiced phrases included "Name calling is not ok." "I am sorry you feel that way." "yelling is not ok." and "oh/ok" I still use oh/ok ALL the time.

Arguing with my alcoholic wife wasn't going to get me anywhere. Trying to talk through our issues like a "normal" couple wasn't possible. She was sick with the disease, and I was sick with unhealthy coping strategies. I was done letting her verbally beat me into submission, so I decided it needed to stop. The onslaught of verbal attacks got worse before they got better - similar to a toddler, if you let them get away with something once, they will try it again and again, testing to see if you really mean it. I had buckled under the verbal abuse in the past, and so she ampted it up, subconsciously hoping that I would give in and continue to feed the addiction. Once she realized that I had set a boundary and I was going to maintain it, the verbal abuse ended. I do need to remind her every once and a while now that yelling is not ok.

Like bud says, practice, practice, practice. One thing I repeat over and over in my head still today is "Practice, not perfection." This slogan reminds me that I don't have to have things 100% right, but I can make progress and take steps in the direction I want to be.

Another slogan is "nothing changes if nothing changes" - also one of my favorites. It reminds me of a Lao Tzu quote that I read at times as a warning, and at times as encouragement to keep trying: If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading.

Keep coming back. So many of us have been where you are now. There is hope, and I believe that your Higher Power DOES have a safety net for you.

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

Thanks for sharing Elabella. I agree - setting boundaries can be tough. I went through the same with my exAH. There were many things I knew I was capable of and had time to do for him, but eventually I started saying "no" because of the resentments I'd feel for always saying "yes" in the past.

My exAH would pepper me with guilt, too, threaten the marriage, tell me what a selfish, terrible person I was, etc. etc.

Sometimes setting boundaries was like a "pick your poison" situation. I could say "yes" and feel guilty for enabling and being one more block from his reaching a bottom, and resentful because the alcoholic sure as hell wouldn't express any gratitude and always had an attitude that I somehow owed him my time and money without question. Or, I could say "no" and then have the alcoholic then confirm for me my worst beliefs about myself. That I'm a selfish, ungrateful, terrible person.

This is where the alcoholics have a lot of us wrapped around their little finger. If they don't get their way, they manipulate by touching on our deepest insecurities.

This was where its so important to do the work around raising myself esteem, and for me, having a Higher Power I could lean on, as well.

I was told many times in Al-Anon that an alcoholic's tantrums were only an outward expression of their own self-loathing. When I remembered that when the AH would try to tear me down, I'd pretend that instead of his saying "you're so selfish!!" that he was instead saying "I'm so selfish!!"

When I'm really centered and know after checking my motives that I had no ill intent or ulterior motive to saying "no", such tantrums just bounced off of me. I viewed the alcoholic as a two-year-old stamping his feet. At times I almost found it amusing, because the alcoholic was trying so HARD to get me to believe I was a terrible person when I knew, in fact, that I'm not.

Another thing I learned in Al-Anon was the JADE acronym: I don't have to Justify Argue Defend or Explain myself. In fact, doing so with an alcoholic is just open invitation to keep arguing and keep their little dance going.

You're doing amazing work, Ela. It's tough in the trenches with active alcoholism. Have you found a sponsor yet? Moments like these are ones where I'd be dialing her right away saying HELP!!

Lyne · ~*Service Worker*~

{{{elabella}}} Congrats on not being a doormat! I resigned from that club. Yes I can feel guilty at times but I try to turn it over ASAP. My A does not know how to treat self with self-care and good judgement. I am not able to control anyone else. But I have been bullied, abused, told I was crazy right to my face, and I'm just not taking it anymore. Keep coming back, Lyne

canadianguy · ~*Service Worker*~

Not buying booze for him sounds like a perfectly sane and fair boundary, regardless of his erratic reaction.

One of the most challenging things that we all go through, when living with active alcoholics, is that we need to stop turning to our A's for validation, emotional support, behaving rationally, etc...

There are a bunch of great slogans that come to mind, but two in particular resonate with me:

1. Why do we keep thinking sick and irrational people will behave in healthy and rational ways?

2. You don't go to the hardware store to pick up a loaf of bread.

In my experience, most of the active A's I have been around were focused on one thing - their addiction. How to drink, access, plan their booze/drug of choice. So when you say "no" to his request for you to pick up the booze for him, it throws a wrench into his plans (all centered around his addiction), and he lashes out because he can see things are changing. Feels to me like he is trying to bully you into keeping things the same as they have always been, which (hurray for you) is no longer an option. You are growing and recovering. The fact that he is not yet choosing recovery, is NOT on your shoulders.

Hugs

Tom

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Ellabella - change is hard. It's hard for the one trying to change and it's difficult for others around us especially if the change has us pulling back and practicing self-care, which many of us have not been doing when we come to recovery. I too had extreme push-back from my A(s) when I set and enforced boundaries. It was uncomfortable and down-right nasty and painful at first. Yet, if I remained consistent, it did blow over and new 'normals' came into play in my home.

I had to learn and practice boundaries as self-preservation/protection and not punitive and make sure my motives were healthy. Keep taking care of you and as others have suggested, expectations always get me into trouble! Try to keep those in check and be gentle with you.

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

Elabella wrote:
Oh my goodness, the last few days I've been on a tear setting boundaries. Today however I'm struggling. My AH just texted and called me from work asking if I could go to the beer store for him. He is working very late, and all beer stores will be closed by the time he is done. He cannot leave work. He has to be there and absolutely cannot step away other than to go to the washroom. Even that can get a little dicey sometimes . I basically told him no. So, I am feeling EXTREME guilt for not doing this for him. I'm a stay at home mom, and have more than enough time to buy him beer. To me, it's the principle. He is on medication to not drink a lot, ( which I am the only one that goes to the pharmacy to fill out the prescription and pick it up for him), so why the hell would I go buy him beer?? Right? So I Kindly said it to him in the text- I'm sorry, I'm not comfortable, these are my reasons etc. Welllll, did the onslaught of texts begin!! He says I'm a sicko, I need help, I'm threatening him, I always ruin everything, I'm a bully, after everything he's been through, etc etc etc. So I texted back telling him I didn't appreciate the abuse he was dishing out and if it continues I'm blocking him. The phone hasn't stopped pinging away. I'm at the point that I really don't care what he says or does right now in response to my saying no. If he wants to leave me for not buying him beer- so be it. But I am struggling with guilt. Guilty for standing up for what I believe in. Why is that? Up til now I always gave in when this situation presented itself because I just didn't want to listen to the bullshit attacks on my character and everything else. I always gave in against my wishes. I would be filled with self loathing because he totally took advantage of me and didn't care what I felt at all. He still doesn't obviously or he wouldn't ask me to go to the beer store, right? Am I being too harsh? I feel like I'm walking out on a ledge without a safety net below. Any esch would be so appreciated right now....

So you've been on a tear setting boundaries...GREAT for YOU!!! First, whatever it is you are doing is CHANGE, and contrary to what some people say, at a certain point, alanon is a program of CHANGE. It certainly isn't a program of doing everything the exact same as before you came into the rooms. LOL. CHANGE, any change, can be good. At some point, we look to make change in the proper direction -- PROGRESS -- toward getting better and getting healthy. That said, second, I see this differently than others here. In my experience -- because I did the same thing, on the exact same issue (buying alcohol) -- what worked for me was to have focus and clarity around what exactly a boundary is. What is it's purpose, it's goal, what am I truly trying to accomplish. Sure, a boundary can help "prevent" (and I use that word loosely) me from doing something I don't want to do, but it's far more than that. Be that as it may, I don't know that what you've done is setting a boundary. I see you have made a decision, adopted a position, taken a stand, and you are trying to convince your AH, justify your position, defend, and rationalize, why your position should be or is OK. You've made a decision and taken a position -- and you basically given him an answer to his request, and, "basically told him no." However, your language is not congruent with a boundary -- it starts with, what? An apology, "I'm sorry, I'm not comfortable, these are my reasons etc." -- and goes on to defend, explain, justify, and so on. Words can be important. Focus and clarity is important.

When I listen, see, hear about people setting boundaries, they often becomes a crutch vis a vis "I don't want to do this" -- and while that certainly is part of it -- a boundary in and of itself, is designed to protect us. It is not punishment or punitive, it is not designed to get the other person to change or force our will on them. Many people think if I detach, he'll stop drinking, if I don't enable, he'll stop drinking, if I set a boundary, he'll stop drinking...but it's not the myopic action that gets the alcoholic to stop drinking...remember the Three C's...we do what we do to get better. As a result of us getting better, one thing that may happen, is that the alcoholic feels, experiences, realizes the consequences of their own decisions and actions...and they hit their rock bottom. Recovery is not that simple...do this and this happens. However, look at what the principles of the alanon program are about...they are about US.

So, the way I see a boundary being established and implemented here is...PRIOR to the incident, or in this case, the next incident...not during...you inform your AH...I wanted to let you know that I am not going to be going to the store, stopping at the store, etc., and buying alcohol for you...and when you ask me to do so, I am going to politely, kindly, and respectfully remind/reiterate that I am not going to do that...and if you begin to yell, scream, text, email, or communicate in anyway, in an elevated, loud, accusatory, inflammatory, etc., type of way...I am going to respectfully and politely end the communications. I will not engage in that type of communication, I find it disrespectful and unacceptable behavior, and I will not accept it, and if need be, I will block your number (delete your messages, or whatever you are willing to do).

Now, during this PRIOR to the incident communication -- if he politely, respectfully, asks WHY, that's understandable, and that's a discussion for another time. However, this is the perfect topic to meet with, work on, and do with your sponsor. It's not something to do via email, BB, chat room, etc. A sponsor will know you, your situation, your story, etc., and will be able to give you the objectivity that you simply can't attain on your own. When we are IN IT, we certainly can't be objective. If he asks why, you can have a discussion with him. But within the confines, the context of a boundary -- this shouldn't be YOU defending, justifying, or convincing HIM of YOUR POSITION. The boundary is there to protect YOU, to help YOU get better, and get healthy. It allows you to not be part of the alcoholic's drinking, activities, because you do not have to be on the roller-coaster with the alcoholic! My goal, my purpose, for every boundary I established and implemented -- and in my experience, I did every single one of them with my sponsor -- was to protect me, and help me in my recovery. Once I was able to disentangle myself from the alcoholic, to untie myself, once I got off the roller-coaster...I was able to start to think clearly, my thinking was no longer distorted, corrupted, etc., and I was able to start focusing on ME...not on the alcoholic...and I was able to start getting better.

All of this being the case, your GUILT is about YOU. You are "selling" and "telling" that you have more than enough time, he can't even get to the washroom without it being an issue, etc. -- and you are focusing on him, and allowing him to impact and influence you. He will use -- guilt, manipulation, anger, blame, martyrism, rage, threats, fear, love, begging, everything he can -- to get YOU to do what HE wants YOU to do. He wants what he wants. So you don't care what he says or does...but you are feeling and struggling with feeling GUILTY. OK, talk to your sponsor. You are collapsing the two and by doing so it is perpetuating the guilt. You should look at ACCEPTANCE...and accept that you are feeling guilty. Don't fight it, don't battle it...SURRENDER to it...and feel it. And then you can LET IT GO. The first three steps of alanon are about US...what we do, what change we have to make, so that we can get better. The guilt comes from everything we did up until now...and then we face change, and say change is hard. Part of the reason it is hard, is because we say and we make it hard. The guilt comes from now wanting to do something different than we have been doing up until now. The paradigm shift takes place...in US. Not the alcoholic. This is something I think a lot of people miss and just don't get. Part of this -- a major part of this -- is the fact that he's an alcoholic, and apparently, as no desire to quit, stop, get better, live a life of recovery, and so on. He's going to do what he's going to do, and he's making that statement, just for today...so...what are you going to do? Focus on YOU. Make change in YOU. Stop giving reasons for him. In my experience, the more I focused on ME, the less guilty I felt, and when I applied, really applied ACCEPTANCE, SURRENDER, and LETTING GO...the guilt faded away.

Elabella · Senior Member

Thank you all for your shares and words of wisdom. Im really struggling with this stuff. Its completely thrown our relationship into unknown territory. I dont feel comfortable. I feel like Im going about all of it the wrong way. Like Im even questioning being in this program. Im not finding any type of serenity in this. If anything, everything is worse. Im still being dragged into arguments with him. He is out of town for a few days and again, like always calls and texts non stop. Just to talk. To see what we are (our daughter and myself) up to. Just nonstop. Ive gotten used to it over the years because thats just who he is. Im ok with that. Its when the conversation starts to take on an aggressive tone - usually towards the end of the day because hes obviously been drinking all day- that I start to get defensive and that gets the ball rollling. Happened last night. And so another barrage of texts accusing me of being miserable and always starting something. Honestly- I think hes right. I keep getting upset by shit he pulls, and then I walk around filled with resentment and basically so wound up that any little provocation from him sets me off. Its so unfair. He AGAIN by accident said the name of the woman he was behaving totally inappropriately with. If any of you have followed my story then you will know the background. I was FURIOUS. Didnt say anything. Let it go. It was the weirdest thing too, because the conversation was so inane, him basically trying to remember the name of a girl in his accounting department, and he started to say HER name but stopped himself. He was at work too, so he wasnt really intoxicated. This was enough to completely trigger me and set me off. Im so fed up. And now me trying to work this program, it makes me feel like its for him and about him and Im frankly not feeling the love right now. I am at the point that I want to walk away from the program, from him, from all of it. Its a no win situation in my eyes. Or just away from the program and just go back to somehow managing this life with him. When it gets bad, walk away. When its going good enjoy it. Im stuck. I feel very uneasy and not in a good space right now. One day at a time. Im planning on attending an AA meeting today, and then Ive booked a massage for myself - first one in over a decade! Self care , right? Maybe after all if that Ill have a clearer head. Thanks for listening....

tiredtonite · Veteran Member

It can be hard at first to say no to others when history has shown us that our refusal will likely be met with a onslaught of verbal abuse, rejection, silent treatment and numerous other tactics to wear a person down and change no to yes. These things are all done of course to have you question your own thinking, confuse you, challenge the validity of feelings for him, control you, wear you down to get his way. You made a good point I think when you said that when you give in and get him the beer you feel sorry that you did. So it looks like you made the decision this time to put how you feel first instead of giving him what he wants. That is your right as a person. We say in Alanon, To Thine Own Self Be True. Your choice is a great example of that. You took an action that honors how you feel and what you want. You chose not to enable his drinking. You are choosing instead to take care of yourself. This doesn't make you a "bad" person. Setting a new boundary can feel so uncomfortable but it sounds from your post that you feel you've made a good choice. Trust that. Wonderful progress! TT

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

Think about it this way...HE wants YOU to do what HE wants YOU to do...and you are considering doing it. HE wants YOU to accept unacceptable behavior...and you are considering doing it. HE wants to live the way HE wants to live...and you are considering it.

That said...the most important thing is...YOU do not have to accept unacceptable behavior. Period. YOU do not have to tolerate the intolerable. Period. YOU do not have to bear the unbearable. Period.

When the pain of all of this becomes so great that you can't take it any longer...then you will CHANGE, and do something about it.

Elabella · Senior Member

Thanks Bo- you always have a way that gets through to me. Its hard to undo 30 years of behaviours, let alone my almost 50 on this planet . Ive always, always taken the path of least resistance to keep the calm. Keeping everyone else happy was always my goal- because I know that I can adapt and deal with a lot. Is it smart? Obviously not. I know no other way. Growing up in an alcoholic home set the precedent for all my behaviours. Im trying with the boundaries- I think maybe I should start with small things. Just so I get used to the feeling and how to do it. I dont feel I was well equipped handling the backlash of putting my boundary in place with the picking up of the beer for him. I havent picked a sponsor yet- I think this is the big issue right now. Again, thanks for taking the time to write to this newbie....

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

Also, you are so immersed into him and with him, that you have convinced yourself that you are making this situation worse. You are not!!! This nor you have completely thrown your relationship into unknown territory...HE HAS. NOT YOU. You certainly can decide that alanon is not for you. That's fine. Perhaps though, you need to take a long, hard, and honest look at -- have you really done the work and worked the program? Just because you have not YET -- just for today -- found serenity, that does not automatically mean that alanon is not for you and won't work for you.

Everything is worse because of HIM -- his drinking, cheating, abuse, and so much more. You are not being dragged into arguments with him -- you are allowing yourself to be dragged in, and you are doing it. You have gotten used to all of this over the years -- so all of the dysfunction, unacceptable behavior, cheating, abuse -- all of it has become NORMAL to you. That's the problem. You are so deep in it that you can't see what's really going on. Your thinking has become so distorted that you can't see reality and what's really going on. That is our sickness. That is what happened to me, so I can feel for you, I feel what you are doing through. You do not have to live your life walking on eggshells. He is a serious, hard-core alcoholic. And you have become sick as well.

When you are sick and tired of being sick and tired and simply can't take it any longer...then you will do something. Yes, it sounds like you are -- to some extent -- trying to work this program for him. That's why it's not working!!! The same thing with AA -- you are going to AA meetings in the hopes of changing him, him changing, him quitting, him, him, him, and more him. You are going with these fantasies that you can discover a way to either get him to quit, or hat you can learn how to tolerate all of this. How's that been working for you? Great job on the massage. Feel better. All the best.

a4l · ~*Service Worker*~

This brings back memories. Of when I actually cared what an addict thought of me. Keep coming back. Eventually the guilting stops when it becomes clear there is no reaction. The a's in my life will still try to throw it in every do often. Can you buy my duty free? I laugh. Nope. Actually this makes me think of a guy i met at the store a few months ago. He could barely walk and had injured his shoulder but was carrying A 6 pack. Of course because he was older than me and clearly awkward I took his shopping and put it on the counter as I was being served just ahead of him.I offered to carry it out to his car; it's what we do here. No it's ok he said thanking me. My wife's in the car, she can help. Ok I said, have a nice day. Now I'm thinking the wife probably wasn't helping him the same way I wouldn't help my husband to buy beer! I lost my wallet that same time at that counter. It got returned but reading this thread makes me see that little interaction in a new light. Lol!

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Ellabella - I love what a4l makes mention of - caring what another thinks of us. I believe that when we embrace Al-Anon as best we can, we will grow, learn, find peace and joy. I believe many of us are so hurt, broken, defeated - we really want/need immediate relief. We are willing to try anything to find that, get that, etc. Recovery is not a quick fix program. Small steps make a difference, and collective practice helps us change.

I hear you and can relate to the confusion, the uncertainty, etc. It's hard to accept and embrace that we are affected by the disease and the diseased, and most of us have unhealthy ways of coping that have been practiced for a long, long while. Trying to change everything at once will overwhelm anyone...be gentle with you, focus on this day only and practice self-care!

I spent the beginning of my Al-Anon recovery going to meetings and picking up the phone. I was at my rock bottom and knew that if I continued doing what I was doing I would break. So, when I wanted to say something, react to something, expect something, I instead called someone from recovery who could have me talk it out and provide a voice of reason. I was not able to think my way (alone) to a proper solution/answer and needed the support of others who really walked the walk!! I called several people every day to just remind myself I was practicing recovery to change ME!

You have the right to a peaceful day/evening. You have the choice to mute your phone, turn it off, block another, etc. The disease tells us this is 'mean' but recovery suggests this is self-care. You are not alone, there is hope and help in recovery - keep coming back!

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

Change is really difficult and uncomfortable. Especially this kind of change. But I knew in my heart I wanted something better for myself so I was willing to keep at it, even if it meant a lot of pain in my life.

I sometimes likened my life to my having a broken bone that didn't set right. I had to re-break my life in order to mend properly.

That breaking is hard stuff. But this is why another aspect of Al-Anon is so important to me: Fellowship.

I went to LOTS of Al-Anon meetings. Sometimes daily. In so doing, I met a lot of wonderful people in the program, got a lot of phone numbers and had lots of people with whom I could speak even when there wasn't a meeting to help keep my sanity. Of course my sponsor was one of those important people. Their strength lent me strength during those days when the alcoholic was doing all he could to wear me down and make me do what he wanted.

There's a saying in these rooms: Don't quit before the miracle happens. I encourage you to keep coming back, Ela. We love and care about you.

Lindie · Member

I am in a similar situation. I have been married for 30 years, 25 out of the 30 he has been an alcoholic. He is also taking medicine that he should not be drinking while taking. Try to stand your ground with the boundaries. I had to do the same with my husband. I realized if he wants it that bad, he will find a way to make sure it is there when he gets home. My husband works nights and he makes sure he has his beer. I know it will not be easy, there still have been times he wants me to get his beer, and I admit I have given in, but then quickly stand my ground again.

Elabella · Senior Member

Thank you all so much. Ive read each and every reply posted. Im grateful to have all of you helping me on this journey. I went on the weekend for my massage, bought myself a new dress, and a new pair of shoes ! Self care to the max! And the best part? I didnt feel guilty at all. This is a first for me. Im always feeling sorry to buy myself things and to pamper myself. My husband actually gets upset at me and tells me to go constantly, but I rarely if ever do. Ill go to second hand stores. Never buy something thats not on sale. What the heck??For whatever reason, Ive always felt that I didnt deserve it. That Im not earning a paycheque so its not my place? Where does that self loathing come from? For years I actually wore that as a badge of honour??? I never felt worthy. I dont understand this at all. Im glad I went to my meeting today. It was a great topic today- change. Wonderful to hear people working the program and putting themselves first. What a concept!! Im in a better place emotionally. Im actually starting to feel the old me coming back. Just scratching the surface, but shes there. Im hoping to finally decide on a sponsor. Im just not clicking with anyone at my meeting. I think I may need to attend a different meeting just to see how it is. Anyway, thank you again to all of you. You are my lifeline! Hoping everyone has a wonderful day..

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Elabella - I went to two different groups before I found my tribe! Keep in mind that we're about progress, and not perfection so any sponsor is better than no sponsor AND you can change up if it's not a great fit! Keep doing you - one day at a time!

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

Change...the major ingredient of the alanon program...nothing else works without it...and really what the alanon program is all about...and...the one thing that most people don't actually do!!! Great for you!!! Progress, you are making progress...and when a person makes progress it also means they are making change!!!

Try different meetings...and try them multiple times. Many meetings ebb and flow. I have one meeting I go to religiously, it is, what I think, and what many people think, is the best meeting in the county. It is consistently, week in and week out, an excellent meeting. There's another meeting that many people feel is one of the three best in the county...and that meeting is hit or miss sometimes, it ebbs and flows, it depends on who leads, it depends on the time of year, it depends, it depends, it depends. There is sometimes no rhyme or reason.

Remember...MEETING MAKERS MAKE IT!!! Go, try, go back, try again, keep going, keep trying...you'll find a sponsor. Make it a focus of yours. Be motivated, committed to it. There is no "perfect" person. All the best.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene