To some extent you are trying to apply logic to both a scientific -- and illogical -- situation. Excessive drinking is not disease. The addiction to alcohol -- alcoholism -- is a disease. The disease is the addiction to alcohol, the consumption of, the dependence upon, and so forth. That is why there is no quantitative benchmark whereas at X you are, and at Y you are not. Then, there is the mental aspect, the behavioral aspect, and the compulsion that develops from alcohol dependency.

You sounds like you are categorizing the cause -- not the disease itself -- vis a vis, some are self-medicating, others it's psychological, and so on. Two different and distinct things.

Tying together someone who "drinks too much" and that being a disease has nothing to do with alanon. That's what I interpreted from your original post. Understanding elements that aren't related doesn't equate. To me, that's the illogical aspect of this disease. Simply put, alcoholism a disease. Your definition of an alcoholic is up to you. I don't know what most people assume about "the drunk" in their life and I don't use that term, so it's not analogous, at least not for me. For me, my program, it doesn't matter whether someone is an alcoholic. One of the principles of the program is -- if someone's drinking bother you, then alanon is for you. The word alcoholic is not in that sentence. The alanon program doesn't analyze or debate whether someone is an alcoholic or not, nor does it do same regarding cause, origin, byproduct, etc. Take what you like and leave the rest.

not all exessive alcohoL  consumption is identified as alcoholism

Alcoholism or alcohol dependence is defined by the American Medical Association (AMA) as "a primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations."
Description

Alcoholism is characterized by:
a prolonged period of frequent, heavy alcohol use.

the inability to control drinking once it has begun.

physical dependence manifested by withdrawal symptoms when the individual stops using alcohol.

tolerance, or the need to use more and more alcohol to achieve the same effects.

not all excessive alcohol us is referred to as alcoholism
The effects of alcoholism are far reaching. Alcohol affects every body system, causing a wide range of health problems. Problems include poor nutrition, memory disorders, difficulty with balance and walking, liver disease (including cirrhosis and hepatitis), high blood pressure, muscle weakness (including the heart), heart rhythm disturbances, anemia, clotting disorders, decreased immunity to infections, gastrointestinal inflammation and irritation, acute and chronic problems with the pancreas, low blood sugar, high blood fat content, interference with reproductive fertility, increased risk of cancer of the liver, esophagus, and breast, weakened bones, sleep disturbances, anxiety, and depression. About 20% of adults admitted to the hospital (for any reason) are alcohol dependent. Men are more than twice as likely to be alcohol dependent than women, and smokers who are alcohol dependent are much more likely to develop serious or fatal health problems associated with alcoholism.
On a personal level, alcoholism, in many cases, leads to difficulties in marital and other relationships, domestic violence, child abuse or neglect, difficulty finding or keeping a job, impaired school or work performance, homelessness, and legal problems such as driving while intoxicated (DUI).
According to information derived from the United States National Longitudinal Alcohol Epidemiologic Study released in 2006, about 8% of American adults are dependent on alcohol (estimates range from 5-10%). About 34% of adult Americans do not use alcohol at all. Another 44% are occasional or non-dependent users. Alcohol is the third leading cause of preventable death in the United States (smoking and obesity rank first and second) and is responsible for about 85,000 deaths annually, about half from injury and half from disease. Alcoholism is involved in about 30% of homicides and 22% of suicides. It is the cause of about 20% of fatal motor vehicle accidents and is a contributing factor in between one-third and one-half of all vehicular accidents. Alcoholism costs the United States about $185 billion annually in costs related to violence, traffic accidents, lost work productivity, and direct medical expenses. The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism estimates that at least 6.6 million children under age 18 live in households with at least one alcoholic parent and that before age 18 about 25% of children are exposed to family alcohol dependency or alcohol

In alanon we refrain from focusing  on the acloholic and attempt to focus on ourselves to see why WE do what we do

-- E

-- Edited by hotrod on Saturday 29th of June 2019 05:26:27 PM

Wildflower I am sorry for your loss . I lost my son to this dreadful disease over 10 years ago . He was  an alcoholic but that did not stop me from trying to fix it

I am glad you are looking to Al-anon for self-care, good for you!

It was explained to me that the word disease comes from "dis-ease" or "not at ease" if you will. The mind, body, and /or spirit.... something is "not at ease" or there would be no desire to look outside, no desire to self-medicate or escape or whatever...

When I came to al-anon, they told me it was not my place to label anyone "alcoholic." It was acceptable (and helpful and healing) to admit that I myself was being affected by another's drinking.. and later learned I had been affected by alcoholic drinking since childhood. Honestly seeing myself "affected" was a giant leap for me as I began personal recovery.

But I did try to get a professional diagnosis of alcoholism to force my (former) husband to get help. I arranged many appointments with various professionals. Sadly, it was completely fruitless because he did not believe his drinking was a problem. To this day, his health problems get worse and worse and he just laughs it off (love your "buttery and manipulative" description.)

I had a BIL whose wife was "affected" by his drinking and she divorced him...The children must have been "affected" because they refused to see him ever again. His employers had to have been "affected" because they fired him... A judge sent him in jail for failure to pay child support but job after job, he was always fired and in the end...

everyone threw up their powerless hands. Years later, his decaying body was discovered in his apartment, he died all alone.

So my experience is the "professionals" are also powerless. over. alcohol.  Until a person decides for himself that he drinks alcoholically, not much can be done to turn the tide. I now accept the fact that some people would rather die than change.

For me, STEP ONE is a treasure, I can finally wave the white flag and admit I've been trying to fight a battle I can NOT win....

My serenity is in direct proportion to my level of acceptance.

I hope this helps, my friend. keep coming back.

-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 29th of June 2019 07:48:30 PM

-- Edited by 2HP on Saturday 29th of June 2019 07:52:21 PM

Good for you, that sounds like a really good CHOICE.

In al-anon, I began to understand I had been making choices all along. I could now detach (Don't Even Think About Changing Him/Her) and not make myself a victim or a martyr anymore.

Al-anon gave me a whole new reason to love "Independence day"

The way I understand it, alcoholism is a disorder, rather than a moral problem or a willpower problem or a bad-decision problem. Regarding it as a disease emphasizes that it is disorder that involves multiple parts, usually a physical addiction and a mental derangement that means that alcoholics can't get perspective on their drinking and acknowledge how damaging it is. Denial, lying (to themselves as well as others), secrecy, and obsession characterize alcoholism.  This is different from someone who, say, just makes a silly decision now and again.

Some people do drink excessively and then one day they can just decide to stop and they do and they stay stopped.  Those are not alcoholics. 

Alcoholics keep drinking even when there are innumerable reasons to stop, and if they do want to stop, they almost certainly need a formal, structured program of help and support.  Alcoholism has a compulsive quality about it that means that they really do not have the ability just to stop and stay stopped on their own.

So I think calling alcoholism a disease emphasizes that we can't just explain the problem to them and expect them to stop, any more than you could explain delusions to a schizophrenic and expect them to snap out of it and never have delusions again, or any more than you could expect a diabetic to process their blood sugar differently merely by explaining the need for it.

But even though alcoholics, schizophrenics, and diabetics have a disorder or a disease, that doesn't mean they can't treat it and lead healthy lives. They all need to follow best practices and get help and support, educate themselves, and stay vigilant.  It's not the underlying tendency to have alcoholism that is the problem it is when alcoholics don't make the decision to treat it.  Of course it's difficult because their thinking is not orderly.  But generally they have some times when they can see straight enough to know they need help, even if they don't know how to get all the way out of the woods. So deciding to treat the disease is also important.

Wildflower .. I think something that helped me come to terms with addiction as a disease was to look at it as something I couldn't see touch smell or hear. Someone who drinks to much I can do all those things. I see it as a mental disease such as bi-polar or something along those lines. Some people are wired differently. My bff of forever had used drugs though high school and beyond. She was using crack on a regular basis .. she's part of the 1% who is wired differently. She says last hit on a crack pipe and never looked back. It's been over 20 years. She's not a big drinker. Is not into drugs of any kind and went on recently to get her masters degree. I know based upon how I'm wired I would take one hit and be an instant crack whore. My point is .. people are different and yes it's a disease of trifold.. the body mind and spirit. People talk about being bankrupt and I have heard that in the rooms of alanon as well. For the majority it's a life long struggle. Ironically my girlfriend was married to a raging alcoholic/drug user for a long time. She never could come to terms with he just couldn't stop. It's easy to say well so and so stopped why can't everyone. Well .. because it starts as mental and becomes very physical for the majority it's obsessive/ compulsive. I hope some of that makes sense. It's a different experience to recovery for each person and the majority don't take a straight line. Hugs.

Alcoholism A Disease


The American Medical Association has 3 primary tenets by which a "disease" is defined



1. It's Chronic - It cannot be wished away, willed away, ignored away, and it is inclined to periodically come out of remission (rear its ugly head again) even with the best known treatments being undertaken and all indicators of a full remission in place.



2. It's Progressive - In the absence of agressive and effective treatment it always gets worse, never better.



3. It's Potentially Fatal - There are no guarantees. Even though the sufferer's illness has been in remission for a substantial period of time, and their health relatively restored, should they be inflicted with another bout it could result ultimately in their death.

 

 Hmmm... I am not an American- so maybe the AMA ruling does not apply?

I would be a fool to discount whatt hey say however!

My first qualifier was never diagnosed with the disease, and definitely would not have accepted that label!

So if this definition business- becomes a barrier... so maybe we have no right to be in Alanon!

And I would be a fool to believe that too.

The condition- alcoholism- from where I am sitting, is extremely difficult to diagnose and to treat, period!  ...

If someone's drinking bothers you...then you qualify to be inside the rooms of alanon, you are in the right place inside the rooms of alanon, alanon is for you, and so on.

As far as what what "qualifies" a person to be here -- in this forum, what makes this the right place, what makes this forum for you...I have no idea.

In my experience, the definition, the label, the classification of the person, doesn't matter.

People really simplify it in meetings by stating "my qualifier " what that means to you is no one else's business. Don't over analyze it for your own sanity. :) I know someone who doesn't have an issue with alcohol doesn't get 3 DUIs in one lifetime. They don't lose jobs. They don't have fractured relationships with family. I'm going to say based upon my life experience they probably have an issue with alcohol. Most people don't even get 1 DUI in a lifetime. Now that's how I describe one of my qualifiers .. I'm going out on a statistical probability because I deal in facts and numbers .. there's a high chance they are an alcoholic. Now I'm not going to tell them that .. they don't see it that way. That's where im outside my own hula hoop. That's a personal opinion which I am entitled to since it was my life .. I'm undoing the damage and so on. My perception is my truth and that is based upon my experiences. Hope that helps :)

 

 Great topic, Wildflower...  ...

Tradition 10 says that Alanon has no opinion on outside issues. We are neutral.

Personally, along with emotions, I believe that our opinions count- and believe that we can express them individually.

The collective expression of the group conscience, in tradition 2 is important also. My view is the the group conscience is made up of our ESH, shared over time.

Some groups put a clamper on certain times. And groups can do this- with Tradition 4. Some groups used to clamp down on "the poor me's" and the good old "pity party". But I think a newer generation [I think] tends to embrace and move through this phase. 

Like yours- my family system is chock full of drinkers... and the same sort of family stories ripple through the generations. In recent years i have managed to address my own childhood trauma- and have attempted to modify the tragic consequences that arise from this.

So the topic you raise is interesting, at the very least. Vital, even. ...

 

  ...We have the 12 Steps, Wildflower; and then the 12 Traditions.

Also the 12 Concepts- which relates to the wider issues of Alanon world wide.

Concept 4 I love to bits. Participation is the key to harmony. This is not just about the harmony within Alanon. But it does end up creating a harmony within.  ... 

Our message board here [I think} was created to provide a link to our chat meetings. Our chat meetings are there, of course- but the message board evolved as a meeting in itself- which we can attend at any time, really.

I think it does serve to showcase recovery- from north, east, west and south... and like us all... it really is 'a work in progress...'... 

Wild,

Chat is kind of more like being at a meeting which I have enjoyed supplementing those with face to face meetings.

I really have been recommending YouTube for Alanon speakers and there are some wonderful ones if you search for alanon speakers you will find some great stuff to listen too. Things that you may relate to a great deal. My favs are Father Tom (Jesuit Priest and I have never been disappointed listening to them speak I'm not Catholic), Kathy H, Larcene as well as Mary Pearl .. OMG .. I sooo relate to this woman and I am so sad I never got to meet here and here I am in TX .. LOL!

That's some hard core black belt alanon listening to those folks. It's what life was like before, what happened during their initial program work and where they are now.

Try it out. I find face to face meetings help me gain a connection to relationships. That for me is a good thing.

I do hope you will explore it and see what you think.

Hugs S :)

SerenityRUS, thank you for the info.  The YouTube idea sounds like a good one.  I never thought to look there.  I'm really not a meetings person.  I live in the boonies.  My husband is ill, and I don't leave him alone.  The idea of finding something online appeals to me.

David G.  I'm glad to hear that you like the topic.  I, too, like to have things written down.  (I'm a writer by profession.) Like you say, discussions evaporate.  I remember talking to my dad on the phone once.  I always told him I loved him.  But sometimes he would say that he liked to get love letters.  So after that I periodically wrote him a love letter.  That way he could hold my love in his hand and look back to it.  He'd had a hard life and was a good man to the core.  I miss him.

DavidG what kinds of things do you write?  I write novels...when I need to work something out it ends up in one of my novels.  I have yet to write one about an alcoholic, but I did write one where the characters made moonshine.  A few of my uncles in my dad's family did that, back when.  I played with the storyline.

So your writing interests are diverse.  I've generally found on forums that outside contact rarely lasts very long.  I am also from a rural setting and am generally country girl friendly.  I've been told that everyone isn't nice.  Duh, as if I didn't know that, based on some of the things that have happened to me.  Sometimes the guard has to be up.  But I would prefer it not to have to be that way.