The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
So my AH who is a type 1 diabetic and would drink a lot around sports but now that many major games are done has decreased drinking. So eHR he started drinking the other night I asked if there was a game on and he said no he was drinking because his blood sugar was low and beer was sugar so why not. Omg. Seriously. So I did bring this up in counseling as his drinking is a big issueand states worried about his health in short term of blood sugar crashing then in long ten of issues with poor circulation and amputation. He said what did he care thats far off and hes screwed anyway being an alcoholic. And when I said I care and hard for me to hear about him not caring if he cant walk done Day and then he tries to turn it on me because I have hip and back issues -yes overweight and also a nurse for 23 years. The counselor we are swing is supposed to have alcohol background. But he doesnt seem to call my husband on the reduculous crap. Drinking alcohol to help your blood sugar when its going low is crap.
The "lamest excuse ever" is the incestual cousin of lies, denial, deflection, and many other things the alcoholic does -- and has to do -- in order to keep doing what they are doing. Period. Sure, it is a disease, but the focal point is not just the drinking, it is the obsession, the justifying, the reasoning and rationale, all focusing on continuing drinking and that next drink...and then the next one and the next one and so on.
So, what does all of this mean to you? Well, alanon is about us. About you. So...you asked if there was a game on, the answer was no, there's a discussion, and then you bring up his drinking in counselling, because it's a "big issue" (for you), and that the counsellor, who is supposed to have an alcohol background, doesn't call your husband out on the ridiculous crap...so...alanon teaches us to look at ourselves. Check your motives...why do you want the therapist to "call him out" on his drinking? To what end? What's your motivation here? To get him to stop drinking? To admit he's an alcoholic? To realize he's making bad decisions? Check your motives. I say this in the context of my experience of being married, for a long time, to an alcoholic, going through the day to day stuff and the marriage counselling process, and on more than one occasion, both with and without counsellors who specialized in alcohol/addiction.
You can find contentment, even happiness, whether the alcoholic is still drinking or not. I have heard this in opening of thousands of meetings. When I walked into my first meeting, and I heard this, I thought it was complete and utter nonsense. But it is not.
If you focus on you -- truly focus on you -- and do the work, actually work the alanon program...then you can be healthy, happy, and find contentment, serenity, and even joyous. It starts with acceptance. Real work, real commitment, and real clarity around acceptance. It is far more, exponentially, massive amounts more than simply saying "I know it's a disease" and "I know I can't do anything about it" and "I know I can't control it" and so on. Acceptance is truly embracing that YOU cannot do ANYTHING about his drinking, or him...at all...and then you cease all efforts to do so. You can have boundaries, and enforce them -- but they are not to get him to change, punish him, or to get him to stop drinking -- they are FOR YOU. To protect YOU, to make your life better...they have nothing to do with him! You can detach, not engage, etc. -- and that is FOR and ABOUT YOU. Not him. You can not enable, not contribute to the back and forth arguing, the commentary, the undertones and your motivation of trying to be right, trying to prove, etc. -- and that's FOR YOU. Not him. This is all part of what the alanon program is about. So, check your motives. Stay on your side of the street...learn what that means, lean into the program, do the work...and get better, get healthy.
All the best.
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Bo
Keep coming back...
God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...
This is alcoholism. Cunning, baffling, and powerful. I validate that his words are nonsense. This is not what a sane person would do.
I know that, as Bo has suggested, when I started bringing the focus back on myself, and making positive changes for me, the less it mattered what the alcoholic was or was not doing or saying. I saw tremendous improvement in the quality of my life as a result of this, and although the exterior situations in my life hadn't really changed, I had, and my new perspective brought about a modicum of serenity in my life.
If you're here to vent though, I get it. We can't just pen up our anger. Get it out as you need, but once you're finished letting off steam, the rooms of Al-Anon are there for you and serenity is around the corner if you're willing to work the program and start changing what you can.
God, grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change (other people, places, things)
courage to change the things I can (me)
and the wisdom to know the difference.
Dancer-I just had the same exact conversation with the counselor yesterday, listing maybe 5 serious health issues my A is in denial about. After several years in alanon, I can state my frustrations and concerns, and then get right back to me. I am the one I can change. I am the one having a better life. As long as I live and breathe I will continue to focus on me, Lyne
Another thing I was thinking...when I was going through all of this with my AW...I was waiting, hoping, waiting, occasionally steering, guiding, and more...for the counsellor to call out my wife on her drinking and her behavior. I remember the counsellor telling me...this is what your wife is supposed to be doing -- lying, manipulating, making excuses, rationalizing, justifying, deflecting, distracting, blaming, and more -- because she is an alcoholic...and this is what they do...so that their drinking is "OK" and they don't have to deal with being called out.
I asked the counsellor "when are you going to confront her" -- and he said, confronting takes on many forms, but it's not about forcing her to quit. Ultimately, he told me...your wife has made it clear that she doesn't have a problem. Your wife has looked at all of the evidence presented -- and it wasn't really in that form or fashion, which is really what I wanted but didn't get -- she has listened to everyone, she has looked at what everyone has shown her, she's listened to everything said, she's seen everything shown to her...all of it! And her position is that she doesn't have a problem. So, I didn't like that. I didn't want to accept that. My position became...then we didn't show her enough! We didn't prove it to her enough! We didn't do a good enough job!
And the counsellor said...Go to a meeting.
Lesson learned.
There is nothing -- nothing at all -- to talk about...UNLESS the alcoholic WANTS TO QUIT DRINKING and WANTS TO GET CLEAN AND SOBER.
So...what do we do if they don't? We live. We live our lives. Alanon shows us, teaches us, gives us all of the tools...so we can do that.
Just my experience. Take what you like and leave the rest.
__________________
Bo
Keep coming back...
God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...
I really try to focus on what I can control (me, my choices, my reactions to nouns) and what I can change (ironically, me, my choices, and my reactions to nouns basically).
An addict will change when they are sick and tired of being sick and tired, and he's telling you he's not sick and tired yet at least .. and he may never get there, that's a reality that everyone living in active alcoholism has to decide if that's a deal breaker or something they can live with. I know people who have chosen to stay and are happy regardless if the addict is active or not. My observation is it's usually a very separate life. You have a right to be happy again regardless if the addict is drinking or not.
My XAH who recently suffered a stroke at the beginning of the year at 52 years of age, told me he drinks energy drinks because they make him feel as if he's had a drink. Turns out that might have been a LARGE contributing factor to his stroke. I used to work for Pepsi and they told you how awful those things were in large doses. He was drinking a case (4 in a pack is a case) daily. Do you know they tell you don't drink more than 2 in a week to every other week? My kids found out their dad had a stroke and this might have contributed to it. Neither of them talk about those any more .. that was enough to go yah .. no thanks.
So that's what he drank instead of alcohol .. who does that? Who would ignore logic that says this might kill you? An addict who hasn't dealt with his addiction. At least yours is being extremely upfront .. the question is are you listening. Because the only thing you are going to change in any person is their diapers when they get to sick or to old. That's just the reality of dealing with getting old.
Go be happy and healthy (in your relationship), you want to loose weight and get in shape .. do it. Don't allow someone else's illness be the reason you live 1/2 a life.
Big hugs :)
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
I was in a Thursday night Al-Anon meeting when a group member for our large local hospital recovery program came into the room and interrupted our group saying "you guys won't believe that I just experienced tonight at family group". We let him talk because he was so affected and he went on about a new patient who entered the meeting with a bag over her head. He had met her in the morning before group and asked her what the bag was about. She replied, "I have come to understand that if I do not allow myself to be blindly led thru recovery, I will not make it". I came to understand that she was acting out my sponsors definition of humility, which is "being teachable". She kept the bag over her head for two weeks and the last time I saw her...she was clean and sober. That alcoholic, addict woman was my ex-wife who I never ever thought would live thru the disease.
My sponsor also gave me a humility question that I was to ask myself when ever I was certain that I knew all about it; "Could you be wrong" he would ask? It only occurred to me to say "no" once which I didn't do ever even yet and since my sponsor is now passed I get to ask the question.
I cant tell you how much it means to have all your support here. And I understand what youre saying its just always hard to except it. And I often find myself wondering how I would feel if this issue were something else that he was hurting himself with so if my AH Were say A over eater and weighed 300 pounds would I feel the same way about him hurting himself and to me I feel like Id be concerned about his health but part of me feels I guess I might be more excepting because I feel that some of those negative attitudes and behaviors he has because the alcohol wouldnt be there if the issue were just addiction to overheating. Were say A over eater and weighed 300 pounds would I feel the same way about him hurting himself and to me I feel like Id be concerned about his health but part of me feels I guess I might be more excepting because I feel that some of those negative attitudes and behaviors he has because the alcohol wouldnt be there if the issue were just addiction to over eating. How would I feel if he were to take up smoking or doing pot? I know that those behaviors would only be hurting him and our interactions would be still much much different and smoking he wouldnt have and make negative comments to me like he does when hes drinking. So to me the biggest thing is just the change in behavior So I know in counseling we have talked about the cows are saying well hes going to drink so you have to kind of except it and telling my husband well she doesnt like it so when you drink shes going to leave the house so you have to kind of agree to except each others things. But its hard when I get resentful from always having to leave my own house because I dont like the smell of the loudness when he drinks. And thats really hard for me. And one of the things its really hard is I am doing a lot of things to make myself better make myself happier and to get needs met that my husband is not therefore. And its hard because then he gets resentful of the fact that Im doing all these things. So then when there is time for us to do activities together that would not involve drinking and sports that drinking a center for around that really limits the amount of time we can spend together and then we both get kind of anxious and upset with each other about that limited amount of time together and easily he tries to turn it around on me for myself going out all the time and then how can I complain that we dont spend time together when Im going out all the time. Which yes is him trying to manipulate things but the hard thing is he saying this in front of our children sometimes and kind of trying to recruit their attitude that mom is selfish and doing the things for herself and not spending time with her husband. And he does the same thing then with his own family.
This might sound really totally stupidly crazy. But for those of you that are still married to your alcoholic can you give me kind of a breakdown of how you separate out time for yourself and then also time with your alcoholic when theyre not drinking and what do you do to kind of flip that switch when you get home from an activity and thats the time theyre gonna want to drink and you need to just flip the switch to focus on you and ignore them.
I I guess I also need help with unconditional love? And how do I take away resentment. If In 10 years from now my husband were to not be able to walk because he had to have an amputation cause of problems for diabetes that were absolutely related to his poor alcohol stuff how do I still want to take care of my husband when I know that he caused those issues directly and then now I feel like I suffer having to take care of him for something he is ultimately responsible for.
I had a friend who brought about his own death from eating things he shouldn't, and that was hard to watch too. Even thought he wasn't irrational in most aspects, like an alcoholic, there was still this big elephant in the room - 'Why are you eating that? When you know your doctor warned it would kill you!!' - so it wasn't like a fully authentic relationship.
But I know an alcoholic is that plus extra insanity. And it totally isn't fair that you have to leave the house instead of him getting sober, etc.
When I used to think how unfair it was (and it is), I remembered the line about 'going to the hardware store to get bread.' It's like this store used to be a grocery store, and how we're still going to it, and it doesn't carry bread any longer. And we say "Why should I have to drive somewhere else to get bread?? This store would be better if it were a grocery store! And it's a huge hassle for me to drive elsewhere! And I've dealt with enough hassle in my life! I deserve no more hassle! I deserve to have bread right here on this shelf!" But the thing is that the bread still isn't there.
I guess for me, it came down to: Did I want to spend a lot of time thinking about how unfair it was? Because there's a certain comfort and familiarity in that, no question. Or did I want to take action so that I wasn't around an alcoholic all the time?
In my case, I separated from my alcoholic. That was a good solution for me, because the pain of living like that was too much. I guess the saying that applied to me was, "He's going to do what he's going to do. What are you going to do?"
I will add that we saw four counselors over the years. Three of them were badly informed about alcoholism. The other one said that she wouldn't see him unless he was in a program of recovery, because no progress would be made while the drinking continued. She was right about that.
Mattie - I love your detailed description of the hardware store and bread! Perfect example of our thought processes and the futility of it changing the facts as they stand.
Bo, your retelling of your counseling session and his responses to you was very helpful. Again, we fight what is evident....we think we still havent done enough to prove our point.....to MAKE them finally see!
-- Edited by El on Tuesday 11th of June 2019 06:36:49 PM
Yes it is lame and sometimes silence is the best response. It allows the lameness to echo in the ears of the speaker. Sending commiserations dancer, hope the morning is brighter.
(((Dancer66))) - I hear you and living with active addiction is a challenge. There are no easy answers or one size fits all solutions for how to cope, heal, deal, accept, etc. I stayed in my marriage and the only way I got through all that you are experiencing, feeling, wondering, etc. about is One Day at a Time, with recovery in Al-Anon being my number one priority.
It took tons of processing and practice to fully accept my AH exactly as he is. It took a ton of self-acceptance to realize nothing I say, do, shout, beg, plead, request was going to change his drinking/actions/attitudes/behaviors. I had to accept also that if I was bothered or affected by his drinking, actions, attitudes, etc. I had to detach. Boundaries also were not optional, they were necessary.
Most of us arrive at recovery feeling broken, overwhelmed, angry, anxious and full of fear and resentments. Most of what has transpired to get us here happened over a lengthy period of time. There is no quick fix - time takes time. Until I fully embraced my own thinking and expectations were faulty, I still looked outside of me for answers, comfort, joy.
From my personal experience, trying to understand the way an alcoholic mind processes is pointless. In Al-Anon, we suggest to not JADE - Justify, Argue, Defend or Explain - our position, boundaries, actions, etc. This is for a good reason - active Alcoholics are masters of JADE, and denial is a huge part of the disease. What we (family/friends) see as concerning, life-threatening, etc. is just not seen the same way by the A, and in reality, whether we like it or not, they have the right to live and let live just as we do.
It took me a ton of program to realize how we see them is absolutely no different than how they see 'us'. The insanity flows deeply on all sides of this disease, and recovery is not a couple's exercise, but rather individual. I can readily share that in my experience, as I got saner and more healthy in mind, body, soul, things got better here. My home went from a place where I left often to avoid the active disease to one where the active elements are no longer acceptable. Meaning if my AH or A Sons want to feed their disease, they leave.
I really encourage you to seek out and attend as many meetings as possible. I suggest getting a sponsor, working the steps/program and focus on you as much as possible. Take care of you, lean into your recovery and trust the program/process - the answers will come. In our home, counseling was ineffective for a variety of reasons - one being the disease which brings it's own denial, dishonesty, deflection, etc. The serenity prayer was so very, very helpful for me in the beginning and remains a daily tool in my world. Keep coming back - it does work when we work it!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
My experience with an active alcoholic as that I was damned if I did and damned if I didn't.
Everything had to revolve around his timeline and desires, period, or he wasn't happy.
And how familiar does THAT sound? I know that tune because I was exactly the same way. It's MY way or I'm going to get an attitude about it. Get resentful. Punish him however I could.
I had to keep coming back to detachment and boundaries and asking myself "what can I do to take good care of myself today?" Specifically, what can I do to better my situation that is not contingent on someone else changing?
Sometimes I would put the breaks on self-care because I'd then be met with guilt. Unless I was constantly dancing circles around the alcoholic, he wouldn't be happy. If I dared to take care of myself I was called selfish. If I told him "no" I'd be told "but I would do it for you!" If I dropped an argument or refused to partake in one, I would be told "See! I told you I was right!"
This is where the phrase "What you think of me is none of my business." came into play for me. And I used it a LOT. If I didn't remember that and apply it, all efforts of self-care would halt. I'd get paralyzed because that little person inside of me who just wants to be loved and accepted and validated felt under threat, and that little person always thought that if I do what others want, then they'll be happy and then I can be okay.
Fortunately I learned in the program that unless I'm genuinely happy with doing what others ask, I'm going to end up building resentments. It's best instead to politely say "no" and to then do what it is that I felt I needed to do to take care of myself. The better I take care of myself, the more serene and happy I become. Life starts to show me moments of joy. I get to drink those moments up. The more I keep doing this the more capable I feel of being kind to others, being flexible, generous, of service, etc.
The thing to remember, as others have mentioned, is that the alcoholic is only going to take care of himself. He's certainly not going to take care of you. At least probably not in the way you'd like for him to take care of you. He's shown you time and again WHO he IS. Don't put your life and plans on pause waiting for that scenario to maybe change. Operate with the presumption that this is NOT going to change. Ever. What are you going to do for you since this will not change?
I echo IAH's suggestion. Start getting to face-to-face meetings. Attend more than just one a week. My sponsor told me three or more are paramount if I want to start seeing growth and change in my life. Get yourself a sponsor. Start working the steps. The tools are available for you, but you have to pick them up and use them in order for them to be of any help to you.
