The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Met w/ one of my wifes clinicians today. She seemed pretty confident that they were going to read me to riot act. They asked what my concerns where and asked what theirs and my wifes concerns where since they called the meeting. We chatted, I expressed my concerns. He heard that I'm not comfortable w/ her coming home because I'm not seeing enough initiative w/ her and her program. She spoke about how she can't find rides to meetings and everyone tells her that AA doesn't supply rides. He said that it must be alot different from the AA he used to know then, I said that it doesn't jive w/ what I'm hearing from any double winners and my sil met my W at the end of her meeting yesterday and she heard one of the guys tell my W that she should call this lady up, for a great meeting for her. W said, I can't get there. SIL, said, can't she get a ride and he said yes, all she has to do is call the lady and ask. I love how their program makes them take the iniative.
One of the things her counselor wanted me to do was to make a list of things I expected from my wife. I told him I was uncomfortable with this. I"m learning expectations are baaaad, lol. I also said I felt like I'd be working her program and taking her inventory. I asked her if she would do the same and she gave me a 'fine' with attitude. I said this is one thing. I don't want to live by two different sets of rules, one for her and one for me. I'm willing to do this list and she won't do the same for me.
So my big thing for this is, how the heck do I make this list w/o doing the bad things I mentioned above.
So my sil calls me in a tizzie. W is staying w/ her and today she said she isn't going to any meetings except in the town she is in. My sil wants the number for AA etc. I said listen, she knows what she has to do to make the meetings, it's up to her. If she won't make them she won't. She calmed down but continued to get into it so I said. Once is a suggestion, after that it's dicey and left it at that. I find it interesting that my A is told at the family meeting this afternoon that we feel we aren't seen a full effort and 90 in 90 is mentioned and a couple hours later she is making more exusese and shorting her effort.
I hate to say it but it makes me more resolute in my position.
Bob
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You are a perfect child of God and God and I love you just the way you are! (added by me...in that special alanon way)
I can imagine your feelings at this point. I feel you are remaining very level headed despite all thus far.
As far as the list, give it as little or as much as you wish. Heck, it may be a good way to just get it all out, even if it's not the final copy you submit.
That list thing, wowie! I sat over here and tried to think of some non-expectant expectations ????? we could have of someone else......and everytime I would think of something, I had to cross it back off! Hmmmmmm.....Maybe Tea is on to something there, just let the expectations flow out of you onto paper! Then take a hard look at them to see whatcha get! Some of it might actually be a reasonable expectation that you SHOULD have of your spouse. Maybe not to her but to you! I mean a very basic expectation I can think of might be that my spouse would love me. Now I cant really control whether she does or not....but I can choose whether that is a "deal breaker" for me or not.
I do know that sometimes getting to a meeting can be difficult. Maybe there are other things she can do to get to meetings. Would it be acceptable for example for her to attend meetings online there are other online meetings besides the ones here I know. What about parenting classes?. I do not know where your wife lives but I do know that sometimes meetings are pretty hard to find and come by. I know when I was in New York for whatever reason I could not find out where the 12 step meetings were. I can't really understand why except that I was depressed and my thinking was way way off. The issue would be for her to do something every day that was recovery related rather than feel paralyzed. I can definitely understand and empathise with paralysed I have been there and done that. I had to really work to find recovery related stuff I could work with and when I did it helped tremendously.
I don't doubt your wife is feeling like a complete victim and is not that motivated to do the work. The issue is she is depressed, depressed enough to kill herself and make suicidal gestures. She is going to counselling that is something. What would be the other "things" you want her to do. Are there ACA meetings, NA meetings, what meetings are there. Are there groups for women who have abused childhood issues. Are there meetings for dealing with relationships like CODA (I would not suggest she go to al-anon as that would interfere with your program). As a general rule an addict can go to any meeting as long as it is an open meeting. I do not know many closed meetings of a.a.
I think your maxim of 90/90 could be revised to include recovery related activities. That would be a lot if she could do 90 days of recovery related activities. For some people having a team of people works having a minister, having a person to do childhood work with, having people to do recovery work with and more. I think that really helps take the pressure off the spouse.
I do think you can come up with ideas for her. Remember she is depressed, she probably always has been depressed and cannot think that clearly. If she has concrete suggestions like doing the steps through a workbook like Pia Melody's Codependent no More that would help.
It is awesome that you recognize that jotting down a list of grievances is a bad thing. There are stable things that I expect of my husband - that anyone would have of a spouse. I trust you will find a balance in the task Bob. It has to be frustrating to hear one thing in counseling to have it fall apart so shortly after. Just remember to keep your eye on you and your actions and behavior my friend. Which I know full well you will do your derndest to do. Love you bumpity bump bump. Cyndee
I am so glad to read your sharings. At my f2f last night we were sharing on the question,
"How can I protect myself physically, emotionally, and mentally." We are working on Step 4 from the Blue Prints for Progress book and this question is in the Self Worth section.
One group member responded that in order to protect himself he need to take long hard looks at Unacceptable Behaviors and Unreasonable Expectations. The first being someone else's doing and the latter, his own. Maybe when thinking about your list, you could reflect on that. No we cannot change another person, but we can decide what is and is not acceptable to us. It is such a gray area, but one worth working on, IMO. When I have unreasonable expectations, I just set myself up for the pain, but I need to look at what is truly an unreasonable expectation or is it a behavior that is just unacceptable to me?
I don't know the answers and it is certainly giving me something to think about. That's why I keep comin'
I see your point of view & concerns, I also see the Dr.'s requirement that you think about & write down what you expect from A a lil diff. Maybe cuz of all of the treatment/couseling I have gone through.
You are absoutley correct, it is not about you taking her inventory or having 'false' expectations. My Priest when we did the pre-Cana couseling, had my ex & I do this... so what happens is out in the open & so u have an idea of what your own needs are.
Think of this as a Boundary list... that certain things you will be able to feel comfortable with & other things that will cross a Boundary that will effect your serenity.
I don't want to tell u what to do & having no kids ~ only being on the other side, my ESH is gonna come out differently. (let's see what would I do) I remember our Priest telling us, "never argue or raise your voices in public, or ever in front of any other's - family, friends, kids" he also suggested, "no name calling" that would be an immediate time out on both parties to walk away & calm down. <-- All of that was fantastic advice, but my addict never got clean, never took any of the advice, ran me & his family with very strong controlling arms.
Also I never took the advice of my own mother, when one of our initial conflicts, she sd, "pack a bag & come home overnight" nor did I take that help when offered by my MIL. I was terrrified of doing so, maybe he would have changed, maybe we woould have lasted 10 months not 4 yrs if I had listened. So what I'm also saying, he was never 'out of the house' for any reason either. I stayed to be a doormat.
It sounds like your couselors are trying to work with you both to see if your W could attain what u want, if it ever got to that point of her being 'well enough' to come back into the family atmosphere.
It could be say, not drinking, going to kid's extracurricualr activities, doing some amount of a chore list, even if it is nominal.
That isn't taking inventory... it is saying what you can live with to protect you & the kids.
If the SIL, wants to know where mtgs are, I don't see that as TMI, I watched a show cd "Intervention" the other day, and ppl care & are trying to help ~ maybe your SIL would drive her to some, no sense in making the 90 in 90 an impossible or unattainable looking feat. If you don't feel comfortable giving her # tell her it is in the phone book.
I went to many mtgs with my friend, I was grateful to sit there, hold her hand - do wtvr she wanted me to do. Arming ur sil w/ the knowledge could be of great use... knowledge is power, maybe sil will try al-anon.
You don't want it to look like you are unwilling to participate or like u are creating sabatoge.
((Bumpsters)) hopefully this gave u a few ideas ~ I didn't read the other responses, so I dunno if I am being redundant.
I do know that over the summer, if A had invited me to go to an open mtg with him, I would have gone. I don't think he read the BB or went to mtgs sincerely... a few times he came home & sd "this one guy just likes to hear himself talk."
I never saw my step-father contrite or sorry for anything he had ever done to my mother or myself. When I sat in on NA/AA mtgs ~ when someone had a cognitive shift or truly, honestly took that FIRST step to heart, soul, mind ~ you could actually feel it in the room, like walking by an accident. The energy changes, their face's change. I had hoped & prayed my st-dad would get there but he (IMHO) didn't even try to "meet the program halfway."
As I worked throuhg my anger & guilt, I kept looking objectively at him... I could see changes in me but sadly, not in him. He was to come home (when my mom was still dmeanding to know where/which mtgs he went to) he would usually avoid our eyes. A few times, his eyes looked glassy & he would look right at us, lying through his teeth, I just felt in my heart he was sneaking alcohol again. Mom sd she knew as well. About a moneth later, she let him go completely, saying" if u need to drink to be happy go ahead, I don't want you to change for me, I love you the way you are" & gave him a big hug.
At this point he had already been kicked out of the house, in the pool house for 4 months but she made a 360*& decided it was futile, she was being so controlling, gave him up to God & I don't know if she loves him or not, maybe she just said that.
All I know is for myself, infidelity would have been a "deal breaker" & I'm alot more involved emotionally, then the ways my 'parents' act.
U know, my ex did so many drugs it would take me a while to remember them all, I spent all of time watching him (his OCD was heightened by the drugs) he never wanted therapy for himself, wouldn't "allow" it for me & threatened my life if I ever spoke of him. I stayed until I was exhausted, on every level. I thank God I never made plans to kill him or me when I was there, that we never had kids ~ in fact I too am grateful for the exp of my first marriage, I do know what I will NOT tolerate, ever again.
(((((((( Bumpsers )))))))) I am glad you are here too! You have been a good friend to me. I am also proud to see the steps you have taken, committing to yourself, your kids & ultimately your wife as well (although u guys may not see it that way yet) ~ I am happy your resolve is remaining strong. Humbly, I think you are doing the right thing & the best u can, I'm proud of you... u still can call me anytime
love -K
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
Way to go! I'm glad you're program is working for you, because mine surely isn't. Stand your ground. You've done a lot of growing in the past few months and it shows. I'm proud of you.
Live strong, Karilynn
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
I too admire that you realize that a list might not be a good thing. Since they asked for it, how about making it a list of boundaries? Or how about a list of things you are willing to do, or things you are not willing to do. Otherwise maybe a list of what you expect from both of you.
Be honest with them, tell them that you are not comfortable taking your wife'e inventory and feel more comfortable dealing with you, the one thing you can control. This way there are no expectations or hurt. If they are any good at all, they should appreciate your position, even if it is not what they asked for.
Your share last night helped me look at a couple of things from a different angle. Thanks.
As I read above, even b4 I got to it, the ? in my mind was, "how the heck do I make this list w/o doing the bad things I mentioned above?" For me there are some circumstances where I'm really challenged in how I can be clear re certain boundary issues and determine appropriate consequences that I can and will follow through w/ ... and communicate that in a manner that 1) is not telling the other person what to do, and 2) keeps the focus on me. I know I dont want to be put in a catch 22 position where I keep trying but don't obtain something b/c the "job description" isn't stated. And I don't want to put someone else in that spot either. But if the parameters of what are "expected" are a moving target, well it can get discouraging to say the least. And, I've learned that just b/c I think something is reasonable and makes sense, amazingly, not everyone might look at it that way!...whether it's in determining goals or action plans for an organization, or in my personal relationships with others. And dealing with an A adds a special kink to it
I too am so glad HP brought me here, because these challenging areas for me get clarified, bit, by bit, by bit.
Keep trusting yourself, knowing that your motives, while detached, are coming from love of self, your kids, and your wife. Take care.
Hi Bump, I really appreciate your willingness to share, and your way of working things through.
On the matter of "The List" I like what Tea and Jeanne said. It might be a good exercise for you to make your own private list, and you may see that there is a pattern or theme involved with yourself. Then throw it away and do your List Homework any way you want .
Such an exercise has helped me in the past. Nobody else ever saw it :)
Stand your ground. You've done a lot of growing in the past few months and it shows. I'm proud of you.
e You very much)))