Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Elabella · Senior Member

How to forgive and move on?

JerryF · ~*Service Worker*~

Ella how would you respond to someone else if they had told you this? How would you tell them you understand?

I was glad to learn and understand my alcoholic/addict and the addict before her and the alcoholic in between were very sick women and not able to love anyone including myself.

I could not force them to be or do something they were totally not capable of. My hardest pain was learning and accepting a different definition for love which I have and which includeds not only the alcoholics and addicts yet also those who are not sick at all.

I learned this from an Al-Anon member after she described how she came to treat her alcoholic lovingly. It doesn't even include the word love except at first..."Love is the complete and total ACCEPTANCE OF EVERY OTHER HUMAN BEING FOR EXACTLY WHO THEY ARE." And you are included in that principle.

Acceptance is the solution to all of my problems. ((((hugs)))) smile

I can learn courage from you...Mahalo

Elabella · Senior Member

JerryF- thank you for sharing. Thats a good question you ask- what would I say to someone else? I think first and foremost I would feel very sad for both of them. As to forgiving the alcoholic? Yes and no. The hardest part for me is separating the man from the disease. How do I know that it actually was him and not the disease when having that relationship? I dont. And this is what bothers me the most. Its almost as if the disease is a free pass for really crappy, inconsiderate behaviour. Do I accept that this is who he is now, what our 30 year marriage has come to? Do I forgive and accept every single time he crosses the line , which is very often? How does that serve me? How does that feed my soul? What exactly is the point of it? So I detach, lovingly, accept that hes not in love with me anymore- which breaks my heart. Or do I forgive- but that still leaves me broken hearted because it makes me very insecure in the marriage. I dont understand how many have chosen to stay married to an active alcoholic who does irrational and hurtful things. I get it- Im the only one who can allow words and actions to hurt me- but honestly, theres only so much a person can take. Im really struggling with this acceptance of the situation.

tiredtonite · Veteran Member

Hi Ella,

Firstly, I'm sorry this happened in your marriage and for the emotional pain you are going through. I don't think there is any clearcut answer as to how a person forgives and moves on. Marriages, relationships, couples are unique. Also forgiveness is a personal choice and not an obligation. Some things are forgiveable for each of us and some things are not. It takes time to process feelings, to identify what we are feeling, work through those feelings and then decide whether we can forgive. There is no certain amount of time that takes in a situation like you are experiencing. I hope you will honor your feelings and your right to take whatever amount of time it takes to come through the other side with all of this. I think when we try to rush ourselves, our feelings come out sideways in dis-ease.

I guess I would ask myself why I am clocking myself concerning forgiving? Is there a motive behind that? For instance, are you worried that if you don't forgive soon, you can't trust him to be faithful? Alcoholism is by nature an instant gratification disease. With that said, we can make ourselves sick by trying to shape ourselves to the sickness by putting how they feel before how we feel.

I hope you can allow yourself all of your feelings and the time it takes to process what has happened and how you are feeling. Journalling has been a helpful tool for me for letting go of anger and hurts. You deserve to give yourself whatever you need and to put yourself first. ((hugs))) TT

Elabella · Senior Member

TT- thank you for your insights Im talking about forgiveness just so I can finally be at peace and not let that awful situation dictate my thoughts and feelings. This was over a year ago and it still is simmering beneath the surface for me. The betrayal was huge for me. Its even more upsetting because he knew that I came from a very dysfunctional, alcoholic abusive home where my father was constantly cheating on my mom. It was a sacred bond that the two of us had- we were each others soulmate and no one could come between our love no matter how they may try. But here we are. And Im bitter. Things have not been the same between us since it all happened. Our marriage is basically platonic now. We tried marriage counseling, but as anyone here knows- counselling with an active alcoholic is pointless. So Ive been left in limbo. Im working on myself. I see a psychiatrist regularly through my cardiac rehab, Im going to Al Anon meetings, and Ive started to paint as therapy which has brought me much joy. Ive even been approached by a gallery and will be part of an exhibit this summer. But my marriage to my AH is completely falling apart. Im trying every day- I read my book One Day AT a Time, and that helps with the struggle. And these boards. Im very grateful for all of you. Its wonderful to be able to have such a loving, supportive community at my fingertips that actually get it. Hugs to you all...

Lyne · ~*Service Worker*~

{{{Elabella}}}. Ive had a very similar experience including being devastated for many years. We are still together, almost 28 years, but things have never, and will never, be the same. I go through ups and downs towards my A where I can accept and forgive, and then I get triggered all over again.

Ive been doing the steps for the second time with my sponsor and this has helped me tremendously. (Progress not Perfection). I am asking HP to remove my character defects, and in doing so, I will have forgiveness and compassion for my A. I pray for this each and every morning. It could happen tomorrow or two years from now. I am powerless over my As behavior and turn my will over to God because I could not find peace without help. Ive got 6 years in alanon and I will tell you I feel much better most of the time. Keep coming back, Lyne

PosiesandPuppies · ~*Service Worker*~

{{{{Elabella}}}}

I just wanted to send you support. Your sadness and fear are palpable in your post.

For me, peace could not be achieved living with active addiction. I had to face my fears and choose another path... for Me.

May peace and serenity find you & decide to hang around for awhile this weekend.

JerryF · ~*Service Worker*~

Ella working closely and constantly with my sponsor was golden. He refused to have me use my alcoholic/addict as blame bait in all my affairs. I had to do my forth steps verbatim...searching (deeply), fearless (without justification against what I found) and moral, (the difference between good and bad) and when I was done got a proper divorce while increasing my love for my then alcoholic/addict spouse. I learned about loving her and not having a reason to be married to her. "I love you, I like having you here...and...I don't need you". I often think about the good and the bad of our marriage and the loving feelings we shared when we parted. Amazing what HP and the program brings about. (((hugs))) confuse

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

I too am sorry for the pain you are feeling and living with. I love your awareness that you want to forgive and not allow it to feed your spirit any longer. I too worked closely with my sponsor to learn how to be a better version of me. Part of the learning was I did hold on to things (resentments, grudges, etc.) and had no clue how to let go and let God. This was one of my biggest defects - my distorted thinking that I had control over things that I did not.

It took me a while to realize that forgiveness is not absolution for another. It doesn't ever suggest what has been done is acceptable, water under the bridge, etc. Forgiveness has nothing to do with the other person - it's for me - to release me from the negative handcuffs of the past event. My sponsor helped me over and over again because I had the 'what ifs' and she would remind me that I am practicing forgiveness to free up room in my heart for my growth/learning. I had always looked at forgiveness as forgetting and absolving another for bad behavior. I don't see it that way any longer, I view it as a healthy choice I make for myself to release negative energy, free up room for growth and get closer to the God of my understanding. I am a much healthier person when I am able to practice forgiveness of self and others.

I found the following on the 'official Al-Anon' website and it made perfectly sense to me when I first read it. It still does today. I hope it helps you too!

Forgiveness

Resentment will do nothing except tear us apart inside. No one ever found serenity through hatred. No one ever truly recovered from the effects of alcoholism by harboring anger or fear, or by holding on to grudges. Hostility keeps us tied to the abuses of the past. Even if the alcoholic is long gone from our lives or has refrained from drinking for many years, we, too, need to learn to detach. We need to step back from the memories of alcoholic behavior that continue to haunt us. We begin to detach when we identify the disease of alcoholism as the cause of the behavior and recognize that our ongoing struggle with unpleasant memories is an effect of that disease. We, too, must find within us compassion for the alcoholic who suffered from this terrible illness.

Each of us is worthy of love, and each of us is doubly blessed when we are able to dig down past our grievances and resentments, no matter how justified we may feel in harboring them, and find within ourselves the recognition of that part of the other person that is and always will be lovable. How better could we learn that we ourselves are eternally and irrevocably lovable than by recognizing that same quality in everyone around us?

Yet some of us balk at the idea of adopting such an attitude to ward people who, in the past, may have caused us great physical, emotional, financial, or spiritual harm. If we find their behavior totally reprehensible, why should we bother to look for a place within ourselves that can relate to them with love? Arent some things simply unforgivable?

To answer these questions, we must ask another: What is the purpose of our recovery? If we are truly in pursuit of serenity, of healing, of a sense of inner peace that will help us to deal with and possibly even enjoy whatever life brings, we must improve the way we interact with others. This doesnt mean that we close our eyes to the unacceptable or tolerate the intolerable. It has no bearing on what behavior we will accept, nor on whether or not we continue our present relationships. It simply means that we cultivate the ability to look beneath the surface. By shifting our focus away from the objectionable behavior and looking more deeply, we recognize a part of every human being that remains untouched by disease, the part of each of us that deserves unconditional love and respect regardless of the circumstances. It is equally possible to appreciate this quality in those whom we do not know as it is in someone with whom we hope to spend a lifetime. This is what forgiveness is all about. We dont forgive the actions another person has chosen, because it was never our job to judge the person for those actions in the first place. Instead, we forgive when we acknowledge our common humanity with everyone, even the person we feel the most entitled to condemn. In this spirit, we can even forgive ourselves, no matter what weve done or how guilty or shamefilled we may feel. We, too, deserve love.

Forgiveness is no favor. We do it for no one but ourselves. We simply pay too high a price when we refuse to forgive. Lingering resentments are like acid eating away at us. Rehearsing and rerehearsing old injuries robs us of all that is precious. Shame never liberated a single spirit. And selfrighteousness never softened a heart. Can we afford to perpetuate such selfdestructiveness? Surely we can make better use of our time and energy. Although we may despise what others have done, if we keep in mind that everything we are now trying to do has the goal of healing us, we are bound to decide that the best thing we can do for ourselves is to forgive.

a4l · ~*Service Worker*~

I can't compare to a 30 year marriage. I do know that falling in love at the early stages is very subjective: cynically I observe it is our imaginings that we fall in love with in the beginning not the actual other person who is only revealed with time. To be positive, your husband didn't give this other woman the opportunity to evolve out of his imagination by allowing time to reveal anything further. It suggests to me a fantasy escape though a very borderline one. Is that an acceptable thing? It depends alot on the context. Then there's active alcoholism which means in my experience anyway working through what should be a joint matter all alone. The not being able to work through it together part is what would keep me stuck on not being able to let go. In times of stuckness I've sought out professional counselling. I like being able to cleanly end the counseling when it's run its course and not have to ever see the person again. An exceptional sponsor could also work. It doesn't surprise me that it still lingers for you because it's an elephant in the room. I hope you find the exact right some one to help you work through all the issues it raises for you. Take good care.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Big hugs,

I think for me with the issue of my XAH and his cheating, I know of at least 2 now and there could have been more .. he was looking for easy "feel goods" still is, I don't know if he's acted out like this in his current marriage, something tells me that at some point he will unless he's medically unable to.

I thought that the affair was about me. I wasn't good enough. You can fill in the blank there .. I wasn't sexy enough, skinney enough and so on. You get the picture. So I needed and have worked on my own self esteem. I really didn't need to forgive him first .. I needed to forgive myself first. When I was able to forgive myself .. forgiving him was much easier.

Staying in the relationship with him wasn't an option because I just couldn't .. at that point I hadn't forgiven myself, in those moments it wasn't possible for me to forgive him either. I was way to angry. I mean seriously after everyone "I" put up with over the years this was just the straw that broke the camels back for me. I needed to find my own self respect and self esteem. It took me a LONG time to wander through that mess and that's not to say I'm totally there .. at least I'm way more there than I was and I am involved with someone who is kind and loving. What I put up with over the years is totally on me and my lack of boundaries and fear. I didn't have 30 years .. however I had 17.

Now .. lol .. I still think my XAH is an idiot .. that's my opinion, I doubt that will change much .. that's my view of him. What he does or doesn't do outside of what he should be doing for the kids .. it's not my business. I have forgiven him .. it had to start with me first .. I really had to focus on myself and what my hurts were in the situation. Accept responsibility for MY part .. not his part .. MY part in my relationship where the breakdown started, what did I want in a relationship in the future and so on. I'm struggling still because I don't do well in intimate relationships .. I think a lot of that has to do with childhood trauma. Again that goes back to forgiving myself first for the things I was powerless over and allowing myself to be vulnerable in situations that I struggle with.

I do find karma tends to take care of things .. you want good you gotta put the good out there .. my XAH has had multiple health issues because of his addiction issues. I do see it as until he does right by the kids and I this kind of thing will continue to happen.

Big hugs, S :)

Elabella · Senior Member

Thank you all for your words of wisdom. I truly am grateful to each and every one of you that took the time to share with me your experiences. I have so much to learn. I do realize that Im a big part of the equation. Im looking forward to my next meeting after tomorrow- Im pretty sure and confident of whom I would like to ask to sponsor me. Ive got so much work to do on myself. My self esteem (which is nonexistent), my self loathing , the negative talk. Its many decades old- the childhood trauma just morphed me into who I am in this moment. But thats all fine, because Im here, Im working the program as much as I know how to at this early stage. My psychiatrist is proud of the work Ive done so far on myself. Dealing with ptsd, anxiety, depression is not a walk in the park. But Im determined to get healthy spiritually- for ME. Thanks again everyone, great big hugs to all of you.....

WendyP · Senior Member

Hi Elabella, When I read your sharing yesterday, I really felt for you, as I have been where you are now. Forgiving is not easy, sometimes it can be confusing as to how to do it. But when I was early in Recovery, when the others talked about forgiving, well, I thought that all of the people in my life owed me an apology, for what they had done to me. The last thing that I was going to do was to forgive them. But when it was explained to me, of course then I felt guilty because I couldn't. I knew that I was far from ready to do that, so I use to ask God to forgive me because I couldn't forgive them. I felt better after that, and left it alone. It took an awful long time, and lots of meetings, sharings to get me to even feel forgiveness. But it came, but in Gods' time not mine. I didn't try to force it.

I went on to marry another Alcoholic, and he did to me what happened to you. With his first wife. Thankfully, I had been in Alanon for a long time, and had lots of programme under my belt, but it nearly destroyed me. I felt that he had taken everything that was precious to me and just squashed it. But I read in a book about why Alcoholics do what they do, and it helped me find some sort of peace and understanding. It said that when Alcoholics get/feel threatened, especially when there partner stops reacting and changing they get scared,so they have to look around for someone to take their place. They have a foot in each door. So they feel safe, and not alone, or left with themselves. I could understand that, because I had changed, I stopped letting him draw me into and argument. I wouldn't fight with him anymore. Especially when I found out that he was in contact with his first wife, I forced myself to detach, I wouldn't let him see that it hurt,affected me. Boy was that hard, as I wanted to rip his/her throat out. He didn't give up, he tried many things, say many things to get me to react, and show him that he was hurting me.But I stuck to my guns and never gave him anything. I just got out of the road.by the time our marriage was over, I was okay, as God looked after me all the way. What I learnt from that journey, was I worked my programme so much, it was the glue that kept me together, so I gained from it, I grew and got stronger and healthier. His disease got worse, and he never reached out for help.

Where I am today, I am still trying to forgive. My Grandson, has Drug/Alcohol problems. I am still trying to see if I am in a forgiving mode, as I am so angry at him for what he has done to 2 of his sons, My Great Grand Sons. He is another unhealthy relationship, and has another little boy. All I can see is that he is going to destroy another little one. I can understand all parts of the Disease, but to me sometimes it gets all the blame, it is a reason, not an excuse. My Grandson was abused by both his Parents, I can understand how the patterns work, but that doesn't make me feel any more warmth for him. As to me he is still accountable for his actions. With anything, especially this Disease, I draw a line in the sand, and mine is Violence, towards Children. He thinks he has the right to do that to them, well he doesn't, he know how I feel, for I have called him on his behaviour, as I did with my son and his Partner. They too, abused their children, so I have a number of Grand Children, Great Grand Children that I see badly affected by Grown Ups. I have paid the price for me speaking up, I haven't seen my Grand Children for nearly 5 years, I won't get to see my other 2 Great Grand Sons. I don't hate anybody, not resentful as I can understand, the why. But I certainly don't have to feel guilty because I am very angry at them.

Elabelle, for me, I feel this programme, is for individual people, walking their own paths. We each have to find out what is best for us. May I suggest, is to be kind to yourself, your forgiveness, will come, but in your Higher Powers time. With my Marriage journey, it took me 18mths to get to the end of it.With My Family members, it is going to be ongoing, I am still trying to live each day with all of it. I hope this has helped you, I do feel for you as it is not easy, if God helped me, find peace with all of it, He will help you.

I'll keep you in my prayers.

Wendy P.

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

I have a different perspective on this, based upon my own experience with a spouse and infidelity. For me, when my wife "cheated" what I did was go through a very specific process of acceptance, surrender, and letting go. Sounds easy, but it's not. I don't think most people really and truly understand what those three things are, as a part of a healing, mourning, or whatever process we are talking about. Sure, in a program sense, anyone can spit out the meanings, the experience, the interpretations, and so on. That's great -- that's sharing. I get that. So, for me part of that process was in fact forgiveness...but that was at the very end of the process. It was the result of the process. That's letting go -- letting go of the "I want it this way" or "I want it that way" -- that's acceptance and surrender.

When applying and going through acceptance, surrender, and letting go...the goal was not forgiveness...and I'll explain why momentarily...but the result was forgiveness. There is a big difference. One is being vested in the outcome, wanting a specific outcome, etc. -- and the other was accepting the outcome regardless of what it was. That's what alanon is about!!! It can't be about what you want, vis a vis, forcing you to feel one way, when you feel another. That's not authentic. That doesn't work. Acceptance, that a situation might not work out the way we want it to...but we can be "OK" with that, and have acceptance in and around that, and still be in a place of acceptance, serenity, peace, and so on. That being said what we learn in alanon -- can be applied to so very much -- and we can "practice these principles in all our affairs"... and we can live happy and healthy lives. It doesn't say whether the alcoholic is drinking or not, or whether it's married or divorced, or any other parameters, conditions, and so forth.

As this relates to forgiveness -- this absolutely has everything to do with forgiving another person. While we know about the three C's -- we also know that you didn't cause, can't control, and can't cure...what? Alcoholism, drinking, drug use, or any addiction...or infidelity for that matter. So what do we do? "Blame" the disease? She never would have done this if she wasn't ___________...fill in the blank. If she wasn't an alcoholic? If she wasn't drinking? If she wasn't sick? If she wasn't in the throws of the/a disease? And on and on and on. However, in my experience, that is not the point. We have to forgive ourselves for our role, our contribution -- not to the infidelity -- but to the feelings, anger, resentment, etc., that we wallow in, dwell in, and continuously allow, yes allow, to damage us and prevent us from living the life we can truly live. Now, forgiving ourselves doesn't mean -- I forgive myself for being angry, for being resentful, for carrying around this animosity, etc. It's very different than that. You can forgive yourself for everything possible, for anything and everything...but does that change the infidelity? Does that change the fact that your spouse is still drinking? No, my wife didn't "do it to me" and I get that. But is that enough to say I forgive myself so now I can let go of the anger and resentment? How's that working for you? LOL.

Who the alcoholic is, who they are being, who they are at their core, is important. It can be a factor in what's acceptable and unacceptable to us. Remember, alanon does not teach us to accept unacceptable behavior. It doesn't teach us to tolerate the intolerable, nor bear the unbearable. It teaches us to be the best person we can be and have acceptance, be able to find peace and contentment, live a wonderful, happy and healthy life, and so much more...but if we do that, achieve that, accomplish that, arrive at that point..does that mean our spouse can cheat on us and we simply can be OK with it? Once? Twice? Again? Yesterday? Tomorrow?

Ellabella, with all of this being said, for me, the X-Factor here is that your spouse is still drinking.

I did find a place of complete and total acceptance, no longer punished myself, and no longer "held a grudge" against my spouse, and was able to let it go, move on, and live a great life. However, I did so as part of that process I spoke of at the beginning of my post. After that process...I arrived at a place...and yes, it was forgiveness. But again, it was the result...not the goal.

2HP · Senior Member

I should... should... should....

forgive... forgive... forgive....

but I'm hurting hurting hurting...

no, no no....

what is wrong, wrong, WRONG WITH ME?!!!!

It looks like these are the messages you send to your heart. This is what I did, I sent those messages for most of my life. until I learned the REAL reason my heart "breaks"

.... my own thoughts and beliefs... like shooting arrows to my own heart.

I am powerless over the past. I didn't know...what I didn't know.

Is it HONEST to say this does not hurt you anymore? Minimizing or denying how I REALLY feel is dishonest... and only perpetuates my suffering... damaging my heart.

My recovery began with HONESTY. When I put myself under a bright flashlight... I saw myself suffering and badly wounded. I did NOT move forward by shaming myself and telling myself I was not being very kind or good or loving... those cruel thoughts only delayed my recovery. But by telling myself that I love and accept MYSELF just as I am... right where I am... this is what launched my recovery. Acknowledging my real feelings helped me out of denial and on a forward path for "moving on."

I did not sit in those feelings (discomfort) forever. But it was the necessary beginning for me. I LOVE the replies here that point to the 12 steps. Because that is "the work" of al-anon. and how the Higher Power could help relieve me.... from the bondage of my self-created prison (my thoughts and beliefs that attracted pain and suffering.)

A rush to forgiveness was a message that came from my childhood religion. many members were still active in that (faith) so I heard it repeatedly in recovery rooms as well. In the beginning, I felt ashamed (shame, shame, shame) for not doing it "right." HA!

It did not work for me. It was dishonest. Getting honest gives my heart RELIEF, I could finally take off the fake happy mask and get real.

Of course you are hurt ... it hurts to live with an untrustworthy husband... I know!!

Please look at the 12 steps and see they do not mention forgiveness. I so agree that forgiveness comes as "a natural result" of working the 12 steps.

MY ESH is to let yourself begin to feel your real feelings, do not sweep them under the rug anymore.

After that, continue with the steps, with a sponsor. Honesty was only a beginning for me. If I had NOT taken further action, I am convinced I would not be here today.

Through my own determination to move and get myself out and among a real live fellowship that I could see with my own eyes their diligent work at the steps. and having a real sponsor who was there for me and holding me and hugging me...

With my own eyes, my heart came to believe. we ourselves must be our own "savior" in the beginning. We must find the strength and determination within ourselves to get our miserable butt to a meeting. We have to exert our will. (free will)

Through meetings, daily readings, daily prayer, and daily meditation my own determination and intense effort to give my heart "the very Best"--- A relationship with silent Spirit... aka "the Solution"....

THIS relationship changes me and my thoughts. THIS Spirit loves and accepts me right where I am... I make the decision to "cooperate" with that Spirit. I stop fighting it.

My heart is smiling.... for me... for YOU.... for us.

Love and accept yourself unconditionally - right where you are. Put a comforting hand over your heart and say,

"I care about this suffering... I am here for you...."

See if your heart doesn't feel more joy springing from the practice of your own Love and acceptance.... (Let it begin with me)

-- Edited by 2HP on Wednesday 5th of June 2019 10:59:34 AM

-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 6th of June 2019 10:05:11 AM

-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 6th of June 2019 10:10:04 AM

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I'm sorry I dont have experience if infidelity as you describe but I do remember my ex ah being unavailable on many levels. I know I did a lot if grieving during my marriage due to constant loss over and over. I came to alanon a broken woman. I had surrendered my old self and I've been building a new self ever since. I have learned about detachment and codependent or obsession. I was obsessed with my drinker but mostly because I had a faulty belief that I needed him to change for my happiness or my peace or my future. None of those things have ever been anyone else's responsibility but mine. I am in a new relationship and I'm really working on not forming any of these former clinging behaviours. He is him with a set of good and bad and it's just whether the bad bits are tolerable or not for me. I've learned that my bf is also emotionally unavailable he is a workaholic and has commitment and trust issues. So for me I get to decide if I'm ok with that for now and I've decided I am but I have written off any long term relationship because I would have to ask him to change who he is for me and no way am I falling into that trap again. So I am left with reality if him and me and us in a relationship. It will end when the time is right and I'm working on acceptance. In the meantime he gets to be him and I get to be me. Hope this helps.

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

I don't have too much to add to what's already been shared. There's a lot of perspectives and approaches, all of which could be helpful for you.

I'm coming from an "I relate" place to your share, as my exAH cheated on me. On top of it I'd found out he was closeted gay. I felt like I was going through a double-gauntlet with both his drinking problem and his sexual identity crisis.

Forgiveness was difficult for me to muster around his behaviors because during the extent of our time together while married, he not only remained in heavy denial about his drinking issues, he also stayed in heavy denial about his sexual identity.

When someone doesn't want to face their reality, I find that means they're going to continue trying to live out their fantasy. There was no place there for me to find TRUST in him because he refused to be or was scared to be honest.

It was through working the steps with my sponsor that I did eventually come to a place of forgiveness around him. That came from having empathy. Realizing that he was in a tremendous amount of emotional and spiritual pain (he's from a Catholic family, so as a result he's sure he's going to hell for being gay.)

As others mentioned, it didn't mean I found his behaviors and actions to be acceptable. It was just more a recognition that a fellow human being made some pretty tremendous mistakes, and were I in his shoes I'd sure as hell hope I'd be forgiven at some point, too.

That said, forgiveness came over time and actually it wasn't all in one big chunk, either. It was like I forgave little pieces at a time. Whatever I was comfortable with letting go of. Some of that forgiveness actually occurred while we were married. Most of it came about after we divorced. Please don't read into that as saying that you'll only be able to forgive if you get divorced! That was just my own personal experience. I had to detach from him and not have him and his disease in my life 24/7 so I could breathe and get true clarity around who I wanted to be in the grand scheme of things.

From what I've read, it sounds like you really want to let go so you can finally heal and feel good. I totally understand that. I had many times while in the thick of it just wanting my bruised ego to forgive so I could move on. As others have said, I found I was powerless over the timing and speed of my feelings and recovery. I'd built a LOT of resentment around his behaviors. A deep set of insecurities were stirred up in me from that. My ego doesn't like my insecurities being fiddled with. It goes on the defense and oftentimes offense. "How dare he! How could he do that to me! I trusted him! Does he think I'm an idiot?" on and on and on.

So really, now that I'm typing this out, his actions really managed to just make me question and doubt myself. And as others mentioned, I had to forgive myself through this entire process. Forgive my ignorance, forgive my anger, forgive any negative behaviors I exhibited through that anger.

Truly everyone in our lives is put there as a teacher - to show us something we need to see about ourselves.

Long and short of it, please don't try to force yourself to forgive. This is an opportunity now to learn to be okay with being hurt. LOVE yourself through this, even love your pain. You're human. It's part of the package deal.

Does this mean take your anger out on your alcoholic? Definitely not. But you can find new, healthier outlets for the pain you're feeling. Eventually, as you do the work, you may find forgiveness starts to come, but it's not like flipping a light switch.

If you haven't already, there's a book you should pick up. It's called "Opening our Hearts, Transforming our Losses" It addresses grief very well. Another book you may want to consider is "Intimacy in Alcoholic Relationships".

Whenever I keep finding a subject popping up in my mind, my sponsor always encourages me to pull out all my Al-Anon literature and look in the back for whatever it is I'm feeling and read all the passages in the book around that feeling. You might want to start with looking up "Forgiveness" and see what's been printed.

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

The so called "effort" put forth to not let go, to hold onto anger and resentment, is often not really any effort at all. It is innate, often requires no change, no effort, and is a subconscious effort.

The effort put forth to accept, surrender, and let go -- truly let go -- is truly an effort. It takes a conscious decision, is a commitment, requires change, and requires action.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

I love love love what HP and Aloha shared .. in talking about letting go and being where you are in feelings. You are ok to be right where you are at .. I have remind myself not to glue my butt to the pity pot. I had to stop with my need to be right. I was right my xah was wrong. Always 100%. It was the 12 steps that helped me love myself first. FLY .. First Love Yourself. It's an overwhelming hurt .. and it doesn't just go away with a snap of the fingers. Worst therapist I ever had .. I was in her office crying because I had JUST found out my xah was cheating. She actually said to me .. you just need to stop crying and move on. My response back was .. I will cry if I need to .. THIS PLACE is where I am suppose to be able to process. I did not go back to her after that .. this wasn't about her .. it was not her process it was mine. So just keep coming back and you set the pace of your own healing. That's what is more important that you process and heal. Big hugs. :)

2HP · Senior Member

I will add that although we did divorce... today is our wedding anniversary. If anyone back then would have suggested that today I'd be sending him love and joy and peace and wishing him every abundance and blessing....

I would have never believed it.

Dear friend, the Higher Power is supremely powerful. Your desire to forgive will come in HP's perfect timing. I so admire your willingness to move on... you will indeed.

Trust your Higher Power. Trust the 12 steps. Trust your sponsor.

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I think a really hard thing for us all to accept is that an active alcoholic isn't able to be 100% in a relationship. He's more like 20% or 10%. They just don't have it to give. He may have had starry feelings about this woman briefly, because all that new-idealized-person rush is like a drug, and alcoholics love stuff that's like a drug. Of course there was little that was real about it, because that's not the kind of longterm relationship where you really know the person deep down and have a shared history and deep feelings. So she seemed novel and artificially fabulous and now she's out of the picture. But really the woman his life revolves around is alcohol.

My experience of a relationship with an alcoholic is that he was married to alcohol and I was the mistress who didn't get much time. Or maybe I was the old, taken-for-granted wife while he went out and spent time and money on the mistress. Either way, there were three people in the relationship and alcohol was the third.

I wonder if the reason you have trouble moving on is that he's still drinking and so you know that he's not wholly in the relationship with you. The brief idealization of this woman was a symptom of it, but it wasn't the whole picture. The bigger picture is ongoing. And the truth is that we can't trust alcoholics. Their addiction comes foremost, and we get the leftovers. We can't trust them to do what's best for our relationship with them.

And who wouldn't have feelings about that? Even if we learn loving detachment, it's the loss of something we maybe had, and at least had hoped for. Of course there's going to be grief and anger in there. It would be weird to be in a relationship with an active alcoholic and think that was normal and optimum. Even if we've made our peace with it, it's healthy to recognize that it's all skewed and weird. Would we want a child of ours to be in a relationship like that?

I hope you can get some of those needs met in other healthy places - friends, recovery, therapy, things that bring you joy.

Elabella · Senior Member

Thank you all for all your shares. I really need to hear them tonight. As Im writing this my phone is going off nonstop with calls and texts from my AH who is away at a friends cottage and is drunk and belligerent. Im trying really REALLY hard to be empathetic- but its pure insanity listening to his nonsense. Blaming me for everything- his ruined weekend. Im talking hundreds of texts and probably like 10 phonecalls today. He even brought up the womans name. Im ready to explode. How can I not be angry?? Ive told him in the last call that Im not comfortable talking to him when hes intoxicated and aggressive. I told him I loved him and said goodnight. He hasnt stopped texting. Awful , berating language. Im this, Im that, blah blah blah. Now you be blocked his number. I honestly cannot listen to another second of it. Its stressing me out and Ive got a heart condition so totally unfair. Am I detaching lovingly by blocking him? I know Im ignoring him, but I cant sit there and listen to him going off on me nonstop. Im so exhausted with all of this. Hes not even here and hes making me nuts. Please help with any shares if any of you are on here right now. I feel awful- guilty for blocking him, but at the same time at peace because I know itll be quiet and I will be able to sleep normally. Please God- any answers right now would be greatly appreciated if possible. Ugh.

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

The goal is not always to detach lovingly -- not when you are being harassed and abused; and let's be very clear...his behavior is harassment and abusive. Period.

You are doing what is best for you, your health, well-being, and more. You are not being punitive. You are not being spiteful or vindictive.

YOU ARE DOING THE "RIGHT" THING. Go ahead...take care of yourself, your health, your well-being. It is the best thing to do and the right thing to do.

You should also "alert" the police. You must be better safe than sorry.

Elabella · Senior Member

Thank you Bo. Im thankful I have these boards to turn to in time of desperation. I kept his number blocked for the whole night and as such had a wonderful, restful sleep lol. I felt really bad doing it because in his last phonecall he was upset and needed to talk, which I let him do until his drunkenness just annoyed me , and he sensed that and got immediately rage full and angry. I get it. He was upset with me because I wouldnt sit there and listen to his rambling on. And to be honest, once he brought up her name, that was game over for me. I started to get sucked into it- but quickly stopped myself and told him I had enough and couldnt talk to him when hes intoxicated. Maybe I shouldnt have brought his drunkenness into the conversation. But I had to give him m my reasons for stopping any interaction with him the rest of the night. Thats only fair, right? Im trying so hard to work this program- but I feel like Im not doing it properly....

Mattie · ~*Service Worker*~

I think loving detachment *is* blocking him. The detachment is blocking him. The loving is that you are doing what's necessary to keep peace and calm between you. Letting him sound off drunkenly doesn't help the relationship, and it doesn't even help him - he may not even remember it later, and as you know, drunks are often looking to pick a fight. Even if they seem to want comfort, it's not any kind of long-lasting, ongoing comfort as you would start with a sober friend. It's basically just that they want attention, and it's one-way attention because a drunk can't be appropriately attentive in return.

They do like to manipulate us and play on our guilt. But those repeating texts and calls genuinely were abusive. They were literally insane. No sane person does that.

So glad you are taking care of yourself. It's clear he has no boundaries, and will try to run all over yours. Your peace of mind depends on not letting that happen.

Elabella · Senior Member

Thank you Mattie. Its awful how the behaviours of the alcoholic can leave us questioning and doubting our actions and motives for those actions. This is something that Im going to need so much help with moving forward and practicing this program. I guess it basically boils down to boundary setting, which Im not very good at and never have been. Growing up in an abusive alcoholic house will do that to you. Im the only child as well, so basically I really never had a voice back then. Its funny how when I grew up I was very assertive and had boundaries in place everywhere. I married my husband who was nothing like he is now. I slowly changed back into that voiceless child and he slowly changed into my dad. Thats just crazy. I cant even believe it as Im writing it. But here we are. So now, one step at a time I have to learn how to put boundaries in place respectfully for everyone involved. Im so grateful I found my way to Al Anon. Im still deciding on who I want to sponsor me- but Im faithfully at every weekly meeting. And coming to these boards in between along with my daily reading from ODAT. Thank you all. Im a total work in progress :)

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

(((Ellabella))) - so sorry that the disease has affected him and you this way. I agree that blocking him is detaching and is also self-care. I am glad you got much deserved rest and that it's a new day. We deserve peace and joy and are fully entitled to do what's necessary to get there. Take good care of you!

Maresie889 · Member

I can relate to this. The now ex A always put his friendships first. I was last on the list in so many ways. Then he was always getting himself into disasters. Then he would come back and ask for my help I was suffused in rage, grief and fear for a long time. I had a lot of fear about where the now ex A would end up. At one time I put my phone in aeroplanes mode. That helped it gives a message that there is no way to get calls through It took great strength for me to detach. Sometimes I did it one minute at a time. I then started following suggestions like focusing on myself I am a people pleaser who thought that was one of the ways I.could show love. Of course I felt very much obligated to love this person who treated me so badly. I had been imprinted with that maxim as a child. For me one of the most difficult things is to forgive myself. There were many rock solid reasons I stayed in that relationship. It was one of the longest I ever had These days I have to say I struggle daily with detaching. Detachment is very much needed in every day life too. I have many situations these days where detachment is very needed. I have to practice every day Being with an alcoholic acting out is advanced detachment material. You have to start with the small weight. Detach from the small things then work up to the bigger ones. No skill is learned overnight. Be patient with yourself, be kind. Put down the stick. I certainly got physically I'll around the ex A. I had to life threatening illnesses. He was not an attentive person when I was ill. Before I met the ex A I neglected myself tremendously after I met him I went down the drain on many many levels. I am grateful for al anon which pulled me through many crisis points. I learned that it was ok thar he didnt like me when he wanted me to jump. I had to detach slowly. I had to see limits thar most definitely included not answering the phone. Most of all I had to be willing to take suggestions which was very very hard for me. The program is with ne every.day. I struggle daily with challenges but it is a good struggle. I no longer feel defeated Maresie

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

I agree with the others. Blocking him was loving detachment for YOU. Really that's what detachment is all about is doing what is necessary to take care of ourselves and getting ourselves out of the line of fire. What you described is what I'd categorize under "unacceptable behavior" and you did a good job not accepting it.

Don't be hard on yourself around setting boundaries and the like. We ALL fumbled around with them early in our program, and I can tell you even for me 11 years in that I still fumble with boundaries and detachment at times.

Just do the best you can one day at a time.

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

Elabella wrote:
Thank you Bo. Im thankful I have these boards to turn to in time of desperation. I kept his number blocked for the whole night and as such had a wonderful, restful sleep lol. I felt really bad doing it because in his last phonecall he was upset and needed to talk, which I let him do until his drunkenness just annoyed me , and he sensed that and got immediately rage full and angry. I get it. He was upset with me because I wouldnt sit there and listen to his rambling on. And to be honest, once he brought up her name, that was game over for me. I started to get sucked into it- but quickly stopped myself and told him I had enough and couldnt talk to him when hes intoxicated. Maybe I shouldnt have brought his drunkenness into the conversation. But I had to give him m my reasons for stopping any interaction with him the rest of the night. Thats only fair, right? Im trying so hard to work this program- but I feel like Im not doing it properly....

It's more than fair. Again, it doesn't matter if you are angry or upset with him...you are not punishing him! Your motive(s) is -- your health and well-being. It's OK to be angry and upset with the alcoholic. It's normal. If you weren't, then you would probably be ignoring and dismissing your feelings, taking no action and you would then be ACCEPTING UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR.

Your motives are genuine, authentic, healthy.

Consider talking to your sponsor and more clearly establishing boundaries. For example...I will not engage, discuss, converse, etc., with my AH, when he's been drinking, when he gets verbally abusive, when he rambles on. With boundaries it's simple -- develop it, establish it, implement it. You've already checked your motives, so you are good. So, once you do those things...then you are no longer bringing his drunkenness into the conversation...you are enforcing and honoring your boundary!!! See the difference? It may not sound like a major difference, but it is -- and that's the difference between healthy and unhealthy...and that's what most people miss in alanon.

All the best.

Bo · ~*Service Worker*~

Elabella wrote:
Thank you Bo. Im thankful I have these boards to turn to in time of desperation. I kept his number blocked for the whole night and as such had a wonderful, restful sleep lol. I felt really bad doing it because in his last phonecall he was upset and needed to talk, which I let him do until his drunkenness just annoyed me , and he sensed that and got immediately rage full and angry. I get it. He was upset with me because I wouldnt sit there and listen to his rambling on. And to be honest, once he brought up her name, that was game over for me. I started to get sucked into it- but quickly stopped myself and told him I had enough and couldnt talk to him when hes intoxicated. Maybe I shouldnt have brought his drunkenness into the conversation. But I had to give him m my reasons for stopping any interaction with him the rest of the night. Thats only fair, right? Im trying so hard to work this program- but I feel like Im not doing it properly....

Also, about the "felt really bad doing it" -- that's OK. Have acceptance around feeling bad. Surrender to it. Don't fight it. And then let it go. Don't cave in. Don't let the feeling really bad impact you and consume you, because then it impacts what you do, don't do, and it impacts your decision making!!! And you don't want that. You want to do what is healthy and best for you...without letting feeling bad change that.

KT2015 · ~*Service Worker*~

I am sorry for what you are going through. I do not have the experience with infidelity but I do live with my Active AH and I know what that can be like. My AH has hurt me in other ways that have been very difficult to process. I find running from the bad feelings makes it worse for me. Sometimes I need to just let myself feel them instead of rushing to the next step. Before I started Al Anon I was the queen of saying I was ok when I wasn't ok. I would take my feelings and stuff them deep down inside me when someone hurt me because I didn't want to feel it and I didn't know how to handle it. One of the best things I have learned from Al Anon is It's ok not to be ok. I can't tell you how great it is to have my group and even members of he group to call and be able to be honest with them. I can tell them my real feelings and no one tries to fix or change it. They just listen and support me. This is how I learned to feel my feelings and process them. Al Anon is where I learned to be kind to myself and protect and take care of myself first. MY relationship with my AH has changed drastically. Even he says that I am a different version of me (usually in a positive way). We aren't as enmeshed as we once were but I'm a heck of a lot more honest than I was in the past. Now that I can identify my feelings and express them I do. I give myself time to deal with hurt if I am hurt and I'm not as easy to forgive as I once was but when I do I truly let it go. In the past I was just saying the words and trying to force my heart to go along with it. It sounds like you are doing some great work in the program.
Keep going and sending you hugs!

El · ~*Service Worker*~

Like KT, I also now give myself permission to feel what I feel. I thought I should shrug things off and not let them bother me. Some things I can shrug off, but if I am hurt, I let myself feel the sting and disappointment in what was said or done. I then choose to address it or process any lesson there might be.....usually a boundary I need to set for myself. For me frequently it involves distancing myself from someone......not as a punishment for them, but to protect myself. Blocking harassing calls is self protection. There has been great ESH in this thread!

JerryF · ~*Service Worker*~

You can also allow him to be part of the group that comes to your support. Let him believe that he is also in agreement about not allowing others to be abusive to him; then detach and stay at arms length from him. Do not allow yourself to engage in behavior your do not like. Ela take care of Ela...In support. ((((hugs)))) smile

Elabella · Senior Member

Thank you everyone for all your great shares! Im actually feeling very proud of myself and how I setup a boundary for myself by blocking his number. The funniest part? The next day once I unblocked him when we finally spoke it was like nothing ever happened? Im not sure if he forgot, or if he understood I meant business. Either way, I cant believe how much I stressed and worried over such a ridiculous thing and then less than 24hrs later hes fine. Proves how sick my thinking is. Im learning...

Elabella · Senior Member

Just to add further on this topic- last night I discovered by accident ( not my usual snooping for evidence out of my mind behaviour) on the computer that he googled her. I cant evenbegin to tell you what this did to me. Im so fed up of dealing with it already. I point blank, without yelling/screaming/throwing a tantrum- told him what I saw and told him I didnt understand his obsession with this woman. He of course reacted as always- first denial, then when he knows Im for real,flips out and starts yelling at me that Im starting an argument.... Im only into causing problems....as well as a few names. I calmly said, Im not any of those things. The only thing I am is curious as to why after seeing what this relationship did to ME- how is he still STILL going and actually googling her name??? In December I found pictures of her in his phone from a screenshot he took of her when she was on tv for a promo for the company she works for. I caught him with those too by accident. Am I just being a fool? Blind to his indiscretions by excusing his drinking problem on those actions?? I feel that saying oh, hes sick and doesnt know what hes doing is in fact, disregarding MY feelings about all of it. Now Im back in the space again of not wanting to forgive. Not believing he deserves it. Hes dishonouring me, our marriage by continuing with this stupid behaviour. Am I blowing it out of proportion?? I dunno. Im so confused. Bitter and sad yet AGAIN. How do I make this stop? Im tired of feeling angry and hurt all the time. I dont deserve to feel that way. I deserve to be happy. Anyone?

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

I cannot tell you how much pain I caused myself when I'd ask the alcoholic to explain himself and justify his actions.

Back to step one. I am POWERLESS over alcohol and the alcoholic. Each time I try to exert imagined power - through demanding explanations, trying to figure out "why", requesting they stop, etc. my life becomes unmanageable.

Are you getting to meetings, Ella? They will help you sooooooooo much. I'm not sure if you said you got a sponsor yet, either. I really recommend one. She can walk you through the steps and really help you with your questions around forgiveness, and why you keep putting yourself in the line of fire through engaging the alcoholic in arguments.

SerenityRUS · ~*Service Worker*~

Big Hugs Elabella,

When I didn't snoop and I found things out my take on that was my HP was giving me information He decided I was ready for. I found out about my X's "friend" in a similar way he left it up on the family computer screen. Thank God I was the one who found it and not my kids.

For me that was the straw that broke the camels back .. I was ready and for whatever reason the drinking I could kind of deal with as I was attending meetings, sponsor and so on .. the infidelity .. nope. That was not working for me. I wanted out. My feeling absolutely was .. how dare he put my sexual health at risk .. he has no right to do that to me. I strongly suggested it was time for him to leave. We were both relieved .. I still had a LONG journey to travel and honestly not there yet.

My question is why are you even asking him things you already know he's going to lie about? Who gets caught with pictures/texts or whatever and says yup it's exactly what you think. I always think about Eddie Murphy and his entire skit about the "it wasn't me" .. years ago I laughed because I couldn't imagine anyone actually believing that and now I watch that skit and there's an irony that is not lost on me. I was one of those people very eager to put aside my logical brain and believe what he was telling me instead of what he was showing me.

I really encourage you to find out what your answers are to this current situation .. your original post was about trust. Ummm .. not to point out the obvious .. he doesn't sound very trust worthy to me. So why would you choose to continue to trust someone who isn't trust worthy. If I know I have an active drug addict in my house and I know they have stolen from me before .. why would I leave my wallet/purse in front of them to take when I leave the room and then be mad that they stole again from me? That's kind of insane isn't it? I think that this time they won't steal even though it happened 24 hours earlier.

His "obsession" with this woman is no different than your "obsession" with him there is a difference .. I call it chasing the feel goods. He's chasing his feel goods. Man oh man .. I wanted to know why I wasn't good enough for him to love me back the way I "loved" him .. I didn't "love" him .. I needed him to validate that I was lovable. When I had time in the program I came to realize I didn't need that validation not just from him .. from anyone else .. my quota of lovable was between me and my higher power and I'm ok with that because I know I am a very lovable likable person .. what other people think about me is none of my business.

I also came to realize I caused my own pain when it came to my X and me trying to force him to love me the way I thought I needed him to love me. That was a lot of growing up on my part. I came to alanon very much a grown up child emotionally .. wounded and looking for my higher power. When I stopped blaming him for not loving me the way I thought he should .. I was more able to forgive me and to forgive him for things that really were not his fault. They were my choices and my consequences because I didn't listen to him what he was trying to tell me.

I hope you get to some more meetings, listen to some podcasts especially Mary Pearl .. I have her affliction for mood altering men .. lol . and really look at changing you instead of the obsession of changing him.

Big hugs S :)

Elabella · Senior Member

Aloha- I am going to meetings once a week. I actually just got home from my meeting. I still havent picked a sponsor because theres no one Im really clicking with yet. Maybe I need to try different meetings? I just find as lovely as this group is, most are a lot older than me and Im thinking they may not relate very well to me or my situation? My childhood was filled with trauma, abusive raging violent alcoholic father and grandfather(his dad whom thankfully I didnt see often because they lived overseas), and my current situation. Im no saint either- Ive dabbled in some hard core drugs in the past and also had a penchant for drinking in excess a lot of times. Im thankful Ive gotten that out of my system. I will attend more meetings I think. I honesty dont know why I put myself in the line of fire either. SerenityRUS- whoa. Thank you for your share. Eye opening for me. Maybe I am obsessed with him? Ive never looked at it that way. Your explanation is bang on. Why cannot see myself? I dont understand it. I feel like maybe Im clinging on to what I thought he used to be. I did need that validation from him that I was pretty enough, smart enough, sexy enough. I needed to hear from him that I was the one and only. Why do I need that? Why do I expect that from a person whos clearly showing me that he doesnt feel that way. Thats heartbreaking to me. There was a certain safety I felt with him for the better part of the last thirty years. It doesnt help that together we decided 16 years ago that I would stay home to raise our daughter. I am completely dependent on him. For everything. Im so confused with all of this. Im having a really hard time looking at myself in all of this. I thought I was the perfect wife. House and child taken care of. Bills paid. Bookkeeping for his business. Im feeling very lost right now...

Aloha · ~*Service Worker*~

More meetings sounds like the right fit, Ella. My sponsor told me three or more a week if I wanted to see growth. I know you'll find a great sponsor. I'm also willing to bet those in your current group relate to you more than you know. ;)

-- Edited by Aloha on Wednesday 12th of June 2019 01:46:37 PM

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene