Thank you for this post.  I find I still want to explain my point of view, not necessarily to argue but to at least have a rational discussion. I am almost NEVER successful. Once the drinking is underway or its a sore spot topic, there is no rational discussion to be had.  It is soooo difficult for me to not engage and I still instinctively do at times, so it takes lots of practice. Change the subject, leave the room, find an errand to run.  Its not fair, but is less draining than the argument.

I totally hear you and understand fully! We all do!

Ellen 

Just thinking of your sign on "Sunny Frogs" is a great tool for me in this discussion.  If I can see and continue to see that picture my attitude will alter toward sitting on the lily pad smiling in the warm sun on a glassy pool of water and offering just a "gribbit" to the world and the alcoholic.  

My sponsor and I did good work and research in and on the subject of response versus react and now that I have a good experience about those two I rarely react.  I have  learned and decided I like the process of stopping, thinking and choosing a serene outcome much better than the consequences of just reacting in a way I do not like.   It works when you work it.  I'm working it cause in the last few days at times I wasn't.  

Thanks for sharing with me and letting me share also.   ((((Hugs))))  

Excellent question SunnyFrogs. So common to hear about people struggling with this. I think at one time or another, much more than once, almost everyone has faced and struggled with this. So, in my experience, in all my years in the rooms of alanon, I always hear this topic inside of one context -- and that is -- we are "pulled into" or we are "dragged into" or "sucked in" and all of that. We hear that someone knows how to push out buttons. I always hear people say "he" or "she" -- and whatever the dynamic is -- the focal point is always the other person. So, we have to not get pulled in? The other person has to not push our buttons? The other person is not pushing my buttons...I am allowing my buttons to get pushed. I don't wear my buttons on the outside where someone can easily push them, or it is easy for me to allow them to be pushed. 

That said, I have a different point of view and perspective. First, there have been many times where I was dragged into an argument. Or was I? It takes two. There is no argument without at least a second person. No one put a gun to my head. No one "forced" me. Very, very few people -- all you have to do is listen, on in this case read -- are willing to look at themselves and OWN their role. For me, my recovery, when I got better and was living the kind of life I wanted, and who I was being...if the argument happened...it was because I wanted it to! It was because of me! Sure, she dangled the bait. She attacked me on a topic or issue she knew I couldn't say no to...and I didn't...it was me. On me. My role. 

Second, what do I do, how do I handle it when I am in it? Well, yes, while I get blamed, the blame is shifted to me, and yes, during these times, my role and my behavior is not good, not nice. But, it doesn't happen any longer. Why? Because in my experience, it's about my role, my contribution. So, I don't enable. I don't contribute to anything the alcoholic can do to perpetuate. I don't endorse, implied or otherwise. I don't do anything that would give someone else even the remotest idea, that I am OK with what they are doing. Remember, for me, just me, I don't accept unacceptable behavior. Remember, I am not having an argument, or a discussion with a rational person! They are not discussing something with me. Remember their approach!!! What they are doing!!! So, I am never, never, never going to say "You may be right" or anything like that. I am not going to re-engage at another time. Why? Because during these times, my wife was drunk, wasn't rational, wasn't normal, and no, she was never making a valid point! So, you may be right" was not the case! I am not going to get back to her. No, I am not going to participate in -- you're drunk, you can attack me, try and get me onto the roller coaster, accuse me, manipulate me, etc. -- and then later on when you are sober, come back to you and now discuss this. Sure, you can come back to me, but that's up to me. I feel I am giving the alcoholic the dignity to choose, on their own, when and how they can address a topic with me. Why do I control that? Drunk? Sober? I have my boundaries. I honor them. Most people don't.

Third, I am not going to say anything that is offensive, patronizing, condescending, or dismissive. I refuse to treat the alcoholic with disrespect. I refuse to not treat them with compassion. That's innate and visceral for me. I am not looking to push off the conversation in this mode or fashion. I am not looking for an instant replay. I would never say "You have a good point" or "Let me get back to you" or anything of the like. Because I am not going to do that. I might reinforce my boundary, but I am not going back to discuss something that the alcoholic tried engaging with me on when they were drunk. Remember...this was an argument or potential argument. I am not going back under that guise. That's my role! To me, for me, in my experience, that's the person who -- always wants to be right, needs to have the last word, wants to make their point, wants to be heard, and so on. That's not my goal. Check your motives. I know mine.

Lastly, at any wedding, bar mitzvah, bat mitzvah, communion, sweet 16, whatever -- at any event you go to -- just because the music is playing; that doesn't mean you have to be out on the dance floor dancing!!! People go out and dance when? When they hear a song they like!!! Think about it. I choose to go out and dance. I heard something and and I decided! Conscious or not. Blame or not. Take ownership! You can't be rational and apply rational thinking and behavior to an irrational person, behaviors, and situation. You don't hear a lot about checking your motives...because most people don't want to! Everyone talks about detachment, not enabling, boundaries, etc. -- because they can vacillate and justify the "wrong" for the "right" or the "unhealthy" for the "healthy" -- and it's easy to be right. LOL. I have always heard, from people in the program for decades, real legends in the program, people who achieved and lived a life most others admire and respect...it is about you. Nothing more. Nothing less. Your role, your contribution. You decide when to speak. When not to. You decide what "argument" to be in. Which one to not be in. Everything else...is about blame and justification. Wanting what I want. Being right? That's not the life I live today.

It's not easy. It's not supposed to be easy. The more I look at me, my role, my contribution...the better I get.

Hi Sunnyfrogs,

When I find myself engaging in a senseless argument, it's typically about my own spiritual condition. At those times, I'm often in HALT - hungry, angry, lonely or tired. If I'm feeling ok I find it much easier to detach and not take things personally. When my serenity is somewhat compromised because of HALT, I tend to get in there and argue. I tend to forget "How Important is it?" My well-being always needs to come first but sometimes I don't make it my first priority. I hope today is a better day for you. ((hugs))) TT

Great question, and you've already been given many great replies....

For me, it boils down to the insanity part.....  we need to remember that our A's (particularly when they are still active), are often NOT of sound mind, and their disease almost wants to pick a fight, so that they can remain in their chaos (and often drags you in as well).

Detachment is ultimately the answer, and "not engaging" them is so helpful for you......

My sponsor used to remind me of two tools to keep me focused, when my AW was trying hard to engage me into her chaos....

1. Think of your A with a big SSS stamped on their forehead, that stands for "sick, sick, sick"

2. Why do we keep thinking sick and irrational people will behave in healthy and rational ways?

For me, and I believe for many of us, the differentiation must be made between communication skills with an active A, versus the communication skills with a healthy person....  We all learn - from books, others, common sense, and even therapists - that good communication with healthy people involves empathy, openness, responsive listening, etc., etc.....  These are all amazing tools, and help foster HEALTHY relationships.

When one half of the relationship is active in their addiction, the tools above not only don't work, but they can (and often will) be turned around and used against you..... most often to further or support their addiction.

In my experience..... Active A's can often be master manipulators, and it is lethal to their partners and loved ones..... The tools we learn in OUR program, tend to combat these manipulations, and put us on (at least) equal footing, and sometimes even put us a step or two ahead.....

One last point, in the name of 'gentle reflection'.....  I was often reminded that my A did not "push my buttons", but that I "allowed my buttons to be pushed".

Food for thought

Tom

This is a great post and responses. I see it as skill building which is for me necessary.  Skill building helps to keep me on top of how I live my life with a life threatening disease that doesn't have to negatively affect me much of or all of the time and also helps me be a positive factor that can and often will offset negatives and be supportive rather than an additional negative.

I like this post a lot.   Mahalo  (((((hugs)))))  

You mention that you refuse to allow yourself to be blamed.  My thought is that him blaming you is not the same as accepting the blame.

There's that Al-Anon saying "What people think of me is none of my business."  Because the thing is that we can't control other people's thoughts.  So they can think all kinds of crazy things about us, and we can't make them change their minds.  They can think that we're responsible for the global stock market, or that we're space aliens, or that we're the cause of their drinking, or that we came home late because we wanted to make them mad.  They're loopy thoughts, but we can't change them.

But if they accuse of us being space aliens, we can try arguing with a crazy person, or we can roll our eyes internally and let them have their crazy thoughts.  "That's not the way I see it, but whatever."  Or even better yet, just "Whatever."

The thing is that if they blame us for stuff, and we start arguing, we are engaged with them.  Victory for them!  They love that!  They love turmoil, because it distracts from their own inner chaos, and from the fact that their drinking is a huge problem, even for them.  And when we start arguing, then they can blame us for arguing!  So we walk right into their trap.  And whenever things get slow and quiet, they know they can get a little turmoil going just by blaming us for whatever is handy.  Then we're arguing and it's off to the races!

The saying for this one is "Recovery isn't winning, it's not playing."  There were days when I probably recited this to myself a thousand times. I'd remember it for about 60 seconds, and then I'd start resisting.  "I just have to explain to him that..." I'd start thinking.  "He can't get away with saying..."  "I'm outraged that he would even imply that...."  "How can he say all that after all I've dealt with!"  And I'd start to get pulled along on the fishhook again.  But when I had figured out how much more peaceful it is to let go, that was a big victory for me.

I most definitely have been feeling uftitable and discontent lately   I think that is when I get into.the arguing 

Knowing yourself is very good   These days I take 100% responsibility for my.triggers.   These days when I feel irritated I dony get into #shoulding# myself out of it. 

When I get to the point of acceptance. there is a way to pit some space around it.  Space is what helps move it to another level.  

I do believe that not engaging is one of the cardinal rules. 

.

Maresie 

That is sad considering the situation can be much better with slowing down and thinking or considering what is actually going on.  My wife and I are moving to another home and she has her motivation and urges on how things should go which happens in spite of my own and so a situation which could go smoothly can be come a tug and pull with hardly any effort at all.  We bang into things and each other the outcomes of which neither of us like.  

Some times I much assert my experiences and other times it is fine for her to take the lead.  

Yesterday I stopped the grind and reminded her that we are in this program called the Al-Anon Family Group so that we can attain peace of mind and serenity without trying to have everything our way.  She listened and got quiet and I listened with my eyes as to what affect my input was having. We both quieted our spirits and allowed each other to participate in the process which has been going on very well now.

Thank you HP for moving with us.   ((((Hugs))))  

I've been thinking for a long time of finding a place like this.  Trouble was, I didn't know if it was the right place for me.  I'm not religious, in fact I'm a refugee from severe fundamentalism.  What led me to sign up and respond then?  This thread.  Thank you all for posting your thoughts here.  They help.  There have been numerous alcoholics and drug abusers in my life.  The one who is bugging me now is my step-daughter.  She's 48 going on 3 - 5.  When I told my husband years back that I thought she was an alcoholic, he said, "She's always been like this.  She thinks she's a princess and everything revolves around her."  Off and on over the years my husband told her she could not call, because every time she did, she caused a fight.  She can be oh so buttery and then turn the opposite.  She drinks way too much and takes opiods for her supposed pain.  I doubt she has any, or if she does from an injury, it's minor.

He limits her to calling every two weeks.  I usually get on the phone with them...to make it easier for him.  So recently for Father's Day I asked her via email to send back the picture of his mother, the one that was so special to him.  I only knew of the one.  She said she would.  As the time neared she hadn't sent it, so I asked her if it would make it by Father's Day.  She said she didn't have the money to send it, and said I should be more supportive and understanding.  I told her that she wouldn't have this problem if she hadn't taken it without permission years ago, and I could send her the money to send it.  Since she and her father had had conversations about that for years, I had no idea she would deny taking it (them).  She exploded - in an email and denied she had stolen it.  She turned me into the bad guy.  Turns out she'd stolen a bunch of them, the only copies of those pictures.  I shared the exchanges with my husband.  She said not to share the exchanges with him.  He planned to talk to her about it, via email.  Then on Father's Day she did not call.  She said she would call today.

Well, today if she calls I will not be part of that conversation.  After 30 years I've learned she is not going to change.  I've been extremely frustrated.  So now, I have to figure out how to handle it all.  Since she lives 1000 miles away that helps.  But....

This is a phenomenal thread.

Bo, your post spoke my truth. Maybe the next lecture, pointing out how his drinking is s affecting all aspects of our life, one more piece of evidence, etc., etc., etc., will make the difference. NOPE.....my AH may be listening, but his disease isnt  having any of it!

Ellen

It's interesting to hear others say that they thought that if they explained enough, it would help and it didn't/doesn't.  It's what I always thought.  In this case if the gal was not my husband's daughter I would never talk to her again.  I kept hoping that somehow I could make it better, for him.  I had no need to be right.  With my brother I had to cut him off entirely.  It broke my heart to do that.  I'll explain in a thread sometime about why he ended up in prison for horrific crimes and how it destroyed my parents.  With my boyfriend, his drinking killed him.  It gave him pancreatic cancer.  If he hadn't gotten sick and died, I would have dumped him within the year.  But with my husband's daughter I wanted to help.  I tried to "fix" it.  He said to me since I didn't break it, I couldn't fix it.  This time I was trying to do something nice.  I won't make that mistake with her again.