That you for sharing. It sounds like you are in a really delicate situation, and that you are working your AlAnon program a lot in this situation.

I don't have children of the two-legged variety, so I don't have a lot to share. What Mattie says makes a lot of sense to me, and I would echo the part about secrets. Alcoholism is a disease that thrives in secrecy. I found myself afraid to talk about it, trying to protect one person or another, one relationship or another. When, in fact, alcoholism is a disease, and it causes situations that aren't necessarily safe. Keeping that reality a secret was not a good thing for me, my family, or my relationships. What I've found works best is to say without anger or judgement "Here is the situation..." and focus on the facts of what is happening. I often even say "It isn't good or bad, it just is. And, since that is the reality of the situation, I think/need/have decided ... I'm not angry. I'm not sad. I'm not upset. I'm not (whatever else). This just is what it is right now, and I want us all to be safe." I've found it especially helpful to call out emotions I am NOT having about something and motives I do NOT have about something. Giving voice to the situation and also how my loved ones might misinterpret my statements takes the power away from the disease, at least in my experience.

norasq -- welcome, you are in the right place, especially if you are in the rooms of face to face alanon meetings. As you know, many people there have been through exactly what you are going through -- and they got through it! Successfully! Your "immediate problem" as you call it is the perfect example of alanon being a fellowship, a "we" program, one that endorses and facilitates sponsorship, having a sponsor, etc.

That said, other than your immediate problem, and questions -- I would like to preface my comments and say...WOW!!! You have handled this so well, and in such a healthy way...and more importantly, you've handled this, and conducted yourself with dignity, grace and class. I admire and respect you and your program. It is obvious that you've learned a great deal and more importantly -- used what you've learned.

When dealing with children, and what they see, what you tell them, etc. -- it is never easy. Often there is no right or wrong, and sometimes it's a no-win situation. Sometimes it's the lesser of two evils. In my experience, this is one area where, sure, you can listen to others, even a sponsor, who may know you better than anyone in the world...but, this is still a "personalized parental" situation. Your the parent, this is your child -- your call. Now, that said, I view this very differently than others, and that's OK, for many reasons. First, I come from a place of safety for the child, first, last, everything in between and always. Period. Program, no program, rules, guidelines, policies, cross-talk, I couldn't care less than I do about any of it -- it is about a child. You know what you know, and you should be grateful. If he was lying to you and concealing his drinking, using, etc. -- you would have to take action without knowing, being able to prove, etc., and while that's OK, it is far better to actually know because he admitted it to you. Second, I would also speak with your attorney. While everyone hopes this doesn't become legal, and you both have rights, one inalienable right is for you to say no if you feel your daughter is at risk. However, an attorney, a family attorney, one with experience in these specific areas, will be able to tell you exactly how to handle these situations, and do so within the confines of the law. That is far more important than people think. Decisions and actions have consequences. It is far better to know which ones you can make with no ramifications, rather than be absent of facts and be surprised later by being in trouble.

Third, you are 1000% correct -- it is not safe for him to drive her. Not any any time. When and how he's drinking or using is unknown, and he is not in a position to make sound, just, healthy, legal, and normal decisions for himself, and certainly not for a child. How many DUI's/DWI's are there annually with children in the car. Driving to work is HIS DECISION. You have nothing to say and there is nothing you can do about that. ON HIM. Period. His history of several one-car accidents, driving-off-of-the-road type accidents, etc. -- is more than enough reason for you to say...NO. If an argument ensues as a result of your decision...take legal action!

He thinks he's fine to drive her...you feel she is not...let a judge or mediator decide if need be.

As far as your child...given what I've said above, it's not easy. You can certainly tell her you have some valid concerns. You can tell her he has shared some things with you, and the details are not important, they are between you and him, but those things he shared has put you in a position to make a decision and that decision has to land on the side of being too careful, vs. not careful enough. You can drive her and he can meet there and attend. Maybe she can meet him there before/after and spend some more time. Be accommodating, be as cooperative as you can be -- for her, and for him -- but be stern and refuse on him driving!

If she asks why -- and pushes the issue -- you do not have to tell her about his drinking and drug use, but you can say that you know you know you are doing the right thing, and there are certain things you do not want to discuss with her as it's not appropriate. No, you do not have to bad mouth him, of course not. But you can as the parent be in a confident, convincing, understanding and empathetic role. While I hope she doesn't feel you are inventing trouble, if it does go that way...at some point, you have to be the parent and she has to be the child. What does that mean? It means as a parent...sometimes we have to make the right decision...not the popular one!!!

As far as him -- sure, tell him how you feel. Don't make it a debate, or negotiation. And, yes, tell him that your position is that she is not safe with him driving at this point, not until you feel comfortable and completely convinced, and until then your position is NO.

This to me is not really a boundary per se. It is a position. Not an opinion, a discussion, a negotiation or anything of the like. It is cut and dry. Black and white. It is your position. Period. I couldn't care less if people lollygag or dance around with go to meetings, pray, talk to your sponsor, and more of that. Sure, do that. I would never say no. But until then, before, during and after all that...NO...not until you are convinced your daughter is safe.

I absolutely admire and respect that you put your daughter's safety above everything else. Thank you for sharing about your situation and for being an example of doing the right thing. All the best.

norasq - welcome back.....I agree that you've got great program experience you are leaning into! That's all that kept me sane during difficult times, such as the one you face. My situation is different but I have 2 sons and they unconditionally love their father - always have and always will. Even though he missed many, many events and things, they were never critical of him and like you, I did the same as best I could.

They did not have special needs but were young/pre-teen for some of our most difficult moments. What helped me greatly was I statements and keeping it simple. For instance, I told my AH that I was uncomfortable with him driving them under the influence for any reason at any time. I also told him that either I would be driving them or they'd be driven in a car-pool setting (which I creatively figured out and helped myself and others).

I did not ask permission, nor did I really give room for discussion. I made a decision and informed him. Keeping it as simple as possible. I then told the boys that I had gotten together with other parents, and we were deploying a car-pool process. I didn't have to make mention of their father or the disease, which I prefer. I have a strong belief that my story is my story and another's is theirs and I need to be able to tell mine without disclosing any of theirs. It takes practice but it's very possible.

For me, sometimes to get creative with solutions, I had to 'act as if' I were alone with no support. Each time I imposed a boundary for safety reasons that limited my AH's input to the family, it did create more work for me yet was well worth it. I think it's important to look at situations as if we were supporting a friend or another loved one - allowing the facts to flow in vs. the emotions/projections.

No rational person would want another who is under the influence to be driving. No matter where, when, who - we all know this is a bad choice. No rational person would ever intentionally put their child/ren in harms way. I would take facts like this, and use the program to build boundaries that protected me, my child/ren and my peace. My sponsor was certainly very helpful.

When I first started with boundaries, there was some resistance. I learned the hard way to be consistent or I had to start over. Focus on what you do know and not on what the outcome might be - it helps with solutions/creativity!

Keep coming back - you're doing awesome and you're not alone!

I would tell her the truth. Given that she is in her 20s she is old enough to know and deep down (with anxiety spikes) she probably already knows the truth. I hope the talk goes well.

-- Edited by Jazzie18 on Wednesday 10th of October 2018 02:26:46 PM

You did it!!! You ran toward to the roar!!! Now, be gentle with yourself -- feel great about what you did, and don't overcomplicate things.

It should not be hard to stay in your truth and not buy into his denial. I understand, but it should not be hard. You faced the hardest part and conquered it!!! And the hardest part is over!!! Now, this should be easy. If he keeps looking to re-engage, revisit this issue, whatever -- just keep showing him how definitive you are. Don't defend yourself. Don't explain yourself in a justification way. Just state your position, and do it confidently. Simply say, this is not negotiable. I am not looking to argue or fight with you, and I am not looking to instigate anything, but this not negotiable, and I am definitive. Don't keep reiterating to him what he said to you. Don't use his own "evidence" against him. It can be inflammatory and can trigger remorse. It will give him reason not to tell you things in the future. No hypothesizing, but just be careful.

You did great!!! Thank you for sharing this, and thanks for being an inspiration. I admire and respect how you handled this -- and even more importantly -- that you did it!!!

Thank you, Bo and Iamhere. I think with ex-ah I find it hard to stay in my truth is that we were married for over 20 years and I did all of the codependent things... didnt want to argue or rile him, felt uncomfortable challenging him, *believed* when he told me that it was my over-reaction and *he* was the normal one. I always felt crazy and uncertain about my own reactions around him, especially around the subject of alcohol. Since we separated 5 years ago, Ive regained a lot of clarity, but when I talk to him it takes work not to slide back into that pattern. It felt like a small milestone of sorts for me to tell him heres what Ive decided, no negotiating, Cs safety comes first.
Anyway, thanks again for the support it helps a lot.