Hello, Wait

This sounds like it would be a good topic for your Group Conscience meeting, if your group has one. It may just require a subtle shift in your meeting's format, maybe?

In most meetings I've ever attended, there's always a main topic to start with (a step, a tradition, the Forum, a pamphlet, a specific topic like detachment, gratitude, etc.), but we always let everyone know it's okay to go off-topic and share on anything related to their Al-Anon recovery.

Where necessary we try to encourage time-limits so people do not share for too long, allowing others the opportunity to share. For instance, I am amazed at one group I attend that usually averages around 30 people. By some miracle we manage to get around 3/4 to even all of the room in a single hour, and everyone has been given the opportunity to share or pass as they chose. Time limits help prevent having a single member monopolize the meeting. Most groups that found this step necessary always kept a little timer at hand and acknowledged that the person chairing the meeting (or a dedicated time-keeper) would alert who's sharing that it's time to wrap it up and let others share. This was typically addressed in our group's opening reading.

In actual book study meetings I've been to, our usual method was to pass the book around - each person would read one or two paragraphs then share about what they read (or, again, on anything else related to their recovery in Al-Anon). Once a person was finished sharing, they'd pass the book to the next person and they would read the next paragraph or two, then share or pass, etc. This method definitely would help prevent the entire meeting from getting completely derailed from the topic at hand in the book as with each person, they would return to the book and read from it when it was their turn.

Even if your book study meeting doesn't follow the aforementioned format, you, as a member of your group, have every opportunity to pull the focus back to the topic at hand after someone dumps/vents off-topic.

I've found if the person is habitual about it, praying for them helps, and if possible catching them after the meeting to chat with them openly - talk about their particular share and then mention to them that you'd love to hear their take on the reading next time. Mentioning sponsorship to such people is also helpful - and maybe that could be a meeting topic itself in your near future - sponsorship, because that's what sponsors help with - they're the people we fill in on everything and vent everything to so that we don't do it in our meetings.

I hope this helps. I'm interested, too, to see what others experience has been with this.

 Good topic Walt. ...

Big city rules work- because there are groups to choose from.

In my neck of the woods- we have to try and adapt- to hold our one and only group together.

There is no gaping deep gulf here.

As an older member now- I see that we need regular reliable meetings with few changes.

When i was young I embraced change. I would wriggle and fume if meetings were full of rigmorale, and short on sharing...

One answer is for a group to have several meetings during the week- with different formats... meetings are cheap and easy to set up.

 ...

To each one who responded, thanks. Some good ideas given which we never tried.

 

i particularly liked the passing of the Study Book and reserving 10 Minutes at the end for off topic sharing. I will pass these to our group.

-- Edited by Walt on Tuesday 7th of August 2018 06:24:47 PM

hey Walt...good on you.....I would have done the same thing...I cannot change others, but I can take care of me and walk away from dysfunction..Just because they are "in recovery" doesn't mean they are recovering....I've seen people be in programme for YEARS and they still act like "high school" foolishness ...Sorry they didn't respond in a healthy way, but reading your post, I see YOU did.....I totally agreed with your approach on this subject........IN SUPPORT

When I first came to alanon I felt the meetings were too controlled. Like having almost every meeting taken up with a step. tradition or topic. Now I understand that part of the reason is that it keeps the meeting focused. There are a lot of sick people out there! LOL. We recently had a woman come into a meeting and want all the lights off because it bothered her eyes. Other members complained that it would then be too dark for them and offered to lend her sunglasses. She left and we have never seen her again. I try to be considerate but there is a limit.

Ginnyc, I too had a similar feeling when first starting Al-Anon, but came to see the value of the structure. Your mention of the woman who wanted all the lights off reminded me of someone I have met in my local meetings. The woman I am thinking of also has an issue with lights (I thing it is migraines), but she wears a hat and sunglasses in the meeting. When I first met her, I thought that was strange, but now I think it's a good Al-Anon approach: taking care of herself no matter what is going on around her. It was thoughtful of the other members in your meeting to offer sunglasses, but we can only help those who want help.

(((Walt))) - so sorry that the responses you got were different than expected/desired. I too have stepped away from unhealthy groups - for a while or for another meeting. What I love about recovery is that when we find we've outgrown a meeting, group, etc. we usually do have choices to keep working on us in spite of what others are/are not doing.

I do believe that each member, no matter how long they've been around, has the right to suggest changes, raise concerns, etc. Our issue that sent me packing had to do with the couple who started the meeting a long while ago. Many of us wanted some changes and they resisted. I am not them so can't say if it was control, ego, etc. but do know that those of us who felt stuck in what is found another meeting(s) to continue our growth.

I've taken breaks many times from other groups - I do believe it's good for me to move around and try new ones simply because I need all the practice I can get listening for my HP to speak through others. There is no doubt that some people are sicker than others, and some meetings are the same. Keep taking care of you and keep moving forward - it always works out as it should.

As a side note, at my favorite meeting, we have topics selected/planned in advance. If a new member comes, we do as David suggests - have a first step meeting. We give all the choice to go with the planned meeting or step into another room for the step meeting. For book studies, we do keep it focused on the chapter/step/plan for the evening. If one is in crisis, one/two volunteers will take them off to the side for a one/two on one meeting.

HTH!!

IMO, this is a keep it simple approach -- a group conscience is called for. There is structure and process to a group conscience, and because of that, at least the process has integrity. I can't say that everyone will vote and conduct themselves with integrity of course.

Be that as it may -- we have a similar problem where I live with beginners meetings. The beginners meeting starts, for example, at 7pm, and the regular/topic meeting starts at 745pm or 8pm. Some people -- seasoned people -- come to the beginners meeting, and instead of following the format of the beginners meeting, sharing on beginners topics, sharing their experience for the benefit of and keeping the beginner in mind, they come to the meeting to "dump" their stuff, tell their story, etc. They give the status of their saga -- "I had a very tough week, my son/daughter, called me, texted me, he's doing this, she's doing that, etc." and so on and so on. That's not what a beginners meeting is for. They come and dump their stuff, and they leave. They don't stay for the topic meeting. Then a large number of people go home after the beginners meeting.

Each meeting has done a group conscience, and everyone is comfortable sharing their opinion(s) on the topic/motion of the group conscience. Alanon is about principles, not personalities. While the beginner is the most important person in the room -- the meeting, the structure, the format, etc., is there for the masses...not the one. Groups take on a life of their own sometime. They ebb and flow, as to tone, temperature, attendance, and so much more. While one may not "like" how a meeting develops, changes, etc. -- a group conscience can get a meeting "back on track" so to speak.

All the best.

To you Al Anon friends who have shared on the issue I raised. Now I wish to call upon you to "suggest" from your program experience how I might have handled my request for help from those "3 members with what I thought was good Al Anon program????"

First a little background about me:

I am now 86 1/2 years of age, was trained in the Naval Aviation branch in electronics during the Korean Conflict, on the GI Bill got an Electronics Engineering degree, then spent 40 years designing airborne equipment or specifying requirements for ground based information systems for the military and designing them. In other words, I was trained and practiced to identify problems, investigate the issues, identify alternative solutions, then design a good product. I got real good at preparing processes for getting things done.

I got into Al Anon 3 times; in the 1970's briefly, in the 1980's seriously for 4-5 years attending 3 meetings a week chairing Groups and was one of 6 rotating Meeting Chairs for a South County Beginner's Group with a 6 week program, averaging 20-40 attendees. Lastly, I was in Al Anon the past 2 years with my most recent Group and presented an invited Red Light-Green Light paper at a Florida 2017 Assembly on Crosstalk.

Here is what I sent to my selected 3 Members with Good Program:

I look to each of your as being members of our Gentle Journey AFG with good programs with leadership proven. Therefore I am requesting your collective assistance.

At the last 2 meetings I attended and Chaired one of, I was affected by actions of another to me ad the Chair and off topic personal sharings, which would have been better for them to do outside the meeting or with a Sponsor. As a result I am taking an extended break from meetings but have addressed 6 issues I see, offered my personal suggestions for improvement and captured CAL experiences from the Beginners Packet for how Al Anon suggests to handle them.

Because time after meetings for business is insufficient to deal with 6 items and so few participate I am suggesting you 3 to be on an Ad Hoc Task Force to reach consensus as to how to conduct one or several Group Conscience meetings and to receive your findings and recommendations. I dont see another efficient alternative. Is there one tho?

I am updating what I previously shared in a paper with you Karlyn and Bill and hope to have it ready tomorrow. We are not in a rush and I see with this how we may make our Group meetings even better for the most members.

Please consider and accept doing this needed service. I will assist as you may determine. You may wish to get Group OK to proceed; your choice.

Thanks in advance.

Walt, of Port Orange

And this is the material I sent about the 6 issues I raised:

GENTLE JOURNEY AL ANON FAMIY GROUP ISSUES

Walt, Port Orange, Fl

August 3, 2018

 

Purpose

 

To share some issues I see happening at our meetings and to offer some suggestions. There is not enough time at the end of meetings to present all this then.

 

Summary of Problems

 

1.     Providing the Program Chair Some Latitude with the Agenda

2.     Sharing Off Topic and Venting on Outside Personal Situations

3.     Need for Meeting Chair to limit Off Topic Venting

4.     Resolving the Closing Prayer Tabled Issue from December 2017

5.     We lack a Group Chairperson for Handling Matters Like These

6.     Handling Business Meetings better for reaching a Group Conscience

 

1.   Providing the Program Chair Some Latitude with the Agenda

 

At a recent meeting which I Chaired, just prior to moving to the Book Study portion, I introduced a question just published in the August issue of the Forum. It asked What Are the Principles of Al-Anon?. I read the short sharing of Patricia B., of Virginia, in which was asked What are the principles to you? I then passed that question to the whole Group.

 

At that point one member raised essentially a Point of Order, and strongly stated it was a Book Study meeting and to get on with it. I responded that in time that would be done, but there was insistence to do it then. In a very short while, as no one offered an answer to the question, I did start the Book Study part of the program. During that portion, there was some sharing given unrelated to the Topic read, but no one objected to that. Was that a double standard?

 

Suggestions: My question now is: Should the Program Chair be empowered with some latitude to briefly introduce something which he/she believes would be beneficial to the Group? In this instance I felt this was a very important question and felt it would be beneficial to share it. My experience from other Group meetings is that latitude like this is provided to the Program Chair. Do we wish to provide for it in our Group meetings?

 

2.   Sharing Off Topic and Venting on Outside Personal Situations

 

I have been observing more and more that members are straying from the topics read in our book Discovering Choices and then vent/dump about outside personal problems unrelated to the topics. Newcomers do this but do not understand that it should not be done, but they do need to vent. Last week was especially bad for me and yesterday there were other examples.

 

Suggestions: This says to me we still could do a better job of handling newcomers by meeting with them outside in a small grou, providing them some basic guidelines/handouts and introduce what Al Anon is about and how meetings are conducted. The Group then as a whole would benefit.

 

3.   Need for Meeting Chair to limit Off Topic Venting

 

Here, the Meeting Chair needs to maintain better order over both the off topic venting and length of time some are exceeding. Yesterday at the meeting end, the Chair did tactfully do this and was able to move on to the Closing.

 

Suggestions: We could add a sentence in our announcement, where the Book Study is introduced, to stress that sharing is to be directed at the topic or topics being read from Discovering Choices and to limit the length of time sharing so others who wish will have an opportunity to share. Further, personal non-topic related issues should be held til after the meeting to share one on one or with another, and to stress the need to get a Sponsor.

 

4.   Resolving the Closing Prayer Tabled Issue from December 2017

 

I have had several members share with me how they are bothered by the saying of the Lords Prayer at the closing. Last December this issue was tabled by then GR, Judy. But it needs to be resolved and I believe I uncovered how it can be done quite smoothly.

 

Over a year ago I asked if there was a Group Conscience spelling out the saying of the Lords Prayer as the Closing Prayer and was told there was. I then requested for all the previous Group Consciences to be captured and written down, which Bill compiled and a copy was provided and is in our Group Literature box.

 

The last time Bill attended before he and his wife were going to Europe, before a meeting I asked him, as he had the printed Group Conscience printout in his hand, to show me where the Lords Prayer policy was written. He and I were surprised to learn that there was no Group Conscience recorded as having been adopted, spelling that out to be followed. WOW, that was news.

 

Then, when a member read the WELCOME at that same meeting, a sentence stood out to me in which it said (here I paraphrase as I do not have a copy of the WELCOME but I did read it at yesterdays meeting) that discussion of religion and the use of non-Conference Approved Literature were to be avoided. Further, later, I checked the Al Anon and Alateen Service Manual and found this under the Closing of the Meeting: Will all who care to, join me in closing with the                 prayer? There it leaves it optional for what one uses. But in our Closing printed material I remember it said Closing Prayer, but not the Lords Prayer. Most of the time we do say the Lords Prayer, followed by the Al Anon and Alateen Declaration.

 

Suggestions: This seems pretty straight forward. As Al Anon policy says we are to avoid religion and non-Conference Approved Literature, and that no Gentle Journey Group Conscience ever approved for our Group to use the Lords Prayer (which is a universally recognized prayer of the Christian religions) , but that our Service Manual does provide for a Prayer to be used in the Closing with the Declaration suggested, I suggest we could use the Serenity Prayer (is there any other CAL prayer to consider) followed by the Declaration. If we do, then, I suggest they be spelled out in our Closing reading.

 

Would a Group Conscience then be needed to just follow approved Al Anon suggestions, to use an approved prayer (Serenity) and Declaration?

 

5.   We lack a Group Chairperson for Handling Matters Like These

 

I feel it is at a time like this, when a member wishes to raise an issue or two, that it would be helpful to have one member approved as the Group Chairperson, for a period of time, to whom the matter could be shared, considered, and then the best way of handling it at a Group Meeting decided, prepared and dealt with.

 

Suggestions: In this instance now, I did not have such a person I could discuss these matters with to act upon them and I did not wish to introduce this while Bill was still away, officially, so I elected to share with each of you, whom I feel will make the best Group decision about the issues being raised. The GR is not the Group Chairperson, nor is the Secretary, but only represents the Group at District Meetings. Of course it could be decided to add that function to the GRs role, but I do not favor that.

 

6.   Handling Business Meetings better for reaching a Group Conscience

 

I am bothered by 2 aspects with our Business Meetings. First, as it was decided by a past Group Conscience to hold them after a meeting, they are not well attended. But, for a Group Conscience to represent unanimity, we do need a much larger attended meeting than what I have seen occurring. Secondly, I feel, as is suggested in our Service Manual, they need to be better prepared for.

 

Suggestions: If we better prepare for a Business Meeting, like having a Group Chairperson (if we had one) form a Committee to prepare for it, announcing it in advance, providing handout/emailed materials on what is to be considered and so forth, we might agree to change and hold the Business Meeting between all of the Opening readings and the start of the Book Study, at which time a much larger, and better prepared/informed number of members will be in attendance. That way each Group Conscience will represent more of unanimity, then what I have experienced.

 

Action To Be Taken

 

If you wish to share your feelings on any of these issues, you may email them to me at:

 

welden@cfl.rr.com

 

NOTE: I will be out of town at the first September Business Meeting.

 

 

By Walt, Port Orange, FL

 

Of the 3 I asked to help me, the former GR did not reply, the current Secretary asked not to be sent more emails and referred me to a reading on "Being a Controller" and the 3rd said he saw no problems, even tho he was in Europe when I saw them. I responded to each bringing to their attention Concept Five, on Minority rights and obligation to raise issues, with no response from any.

My question now to the Message Board participants is: 

How might I sought their assistance better?

Thanks in advance.

You know me better than you realize.

I have always experienced a Co Dependency problem anticipating negative projections dealing on a personal basis. So I preferred to write rather than to speak my thoughts. A serious character defect.

Thanks pointing out this other way to handle this; granted, more challenging.

That's so great you're asking questions, Walt.

I tend to agree that my experience with group conscience meetings is that it's an open discussion that allows people to voice their questions, thoughts, concerns, etc in person. The only written materials we have present at such meetings is a printed agenda and our last month's minutes. If people are concerned about something they show up and talk it through with the group.

For instance, last night my home group had their group conscience meeting. I'm the group's secretary so I need to show up for all of them, but we've been having an issue with the group conscience meeting always starting late (we hold it after the meeting), and while we tried to work on solutions on starting the meeting on time, it hasn't been very successful, so I asked the members present at the group conscience meeting what they thought about maybe moving it so it started before the actual meeting. It was a great opportunity then for those present to immediately state their thoughts about moving it (one said she wouldn't be able to make it, but she wasn't upset about it, and the rest of the people present actually liked the idea.) We decided that we would announce the proposed change during our opening of the regular meeting for the next few weeks to give others a chance to weigh in, as well. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping there won't be any strong objections and we can then move it to the earlier start time. However, I also respect that this is the group's meeting, not MY meeting, so ultimately I will respect what the group as a whole decides.

The disadvantage to just submitting something in writing but not showing up for actual discussion is that I don't get to hear other people's thought processes around it, nor speak to their objections or even agreements.

If your group is open to it, request a group conscience so everyone has a chance to hear the concerns and participate (per our traditions... participation is the key to harmony.)

If your group says "no we don't need one" then yeah, maybe it's not a fit and healthy group.

But definitely take advantage of the practice available to you to have an open dialogue around your concerns. Writing a letter only provides your one view point and kind of closes the door to conversation.

I hope this was helpful. So happy to see you taking such a vested interest in your group.

A "group inventory" is what comes to mind. You will find the information by googling Al-Anon Guidelines, Taking a Group Inventory G-8a.

Long ago, our group announced that we'd be holding a group inventory.  we explained that it would occur for 2 successive weeks during a group conscience held after those 2 meetings. For four weeks, we handed out the inventory questions so everyone could reflect and prepare their answers well in advance.

This group inventory resulted in a few changes to the meeting. I personally did not like the changes, though it turned out precisely the way it was meant to be.. the new rules seemed to make others feel more "safe" and "secure."  This and other similar events brought a shift to my personal "ambition" and I learned to get my "security" from a more reliable source.  In the end, I felt happy for all of us.  

 

So to me, there is nothing "unfortunate" about your situation, that is my ESH.   You offered up "service," doing only what you believe HP would have you do. Sometimes people reject our service -- what does it matter as long as we do what we believe God would have us do.

I know you will agree that ultimate peace is the abandonment of all attachment to the result.

Have faith ((Walt))  From where I sit, Higher Power is guiding you closer still..  I came to realize I didn't need a perfect al-anon fellowship as much as I needed to work on perfecting my relationship with Higher Power.  That was "the problem" all along and defines the word "recovery" for me, as well.  It's all Good.

 

-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 23rd of August 2018 08:31:28 AM

Hi Walt,

Thank you for bringing this discussion, my area's groups are currently dealing with very similar issues about the venting and off-topic shares, so it's been great to hear all the viewpoints here.

I have experience leading some consensus decision-making (which is at least very similar to a group conscience) for a different kind of group and I want to add some thoughts to give a perspective on how you might have handled it (you asked for that in one of your replies), or well really how I might handle it. First I want to say that I enjoyed reading the well thought out communication sent to your group's representatives. I've written things like that which were received well, but the only times they were successful in a group using consensus were when the group became aware of an issue, and the group's consensus was to ask me to provide analysis and a plan for it to consider. Other times when I presented a fully formed analysis with suggestions to solve a problem I got a similar response to what you got. Over the years I learned some things about working in groups using consensus.

I was told that the person leading the process should refrain, as much as possible, from expressing their own opinion during the process. They should focus on making sure that all the other people feel heard and facilitate the logistics of the meeting and/or information. I don't think this may apply to you in this situation, but it might apply in that whenever I had a strong opinion that I wanted to voice at a consensus meeting I made sure that I was not one of the people who had to run the meeting. 

A strong consensus is built by the whole group from beginning to end. So if I was you I would start by telling the whole group in your business meeting what I personally had difficulty with to see if others felt the same way. You might have gotten agreement from other people in this larger setting which you did not get from your 3 chosen representatives. Or you might have recognized that you were so much in the minority that it wouldn't be worth your time to pursue the issues with that group. If you did get agreement that the group wanted to address these issues, then it is great when everyone gets the chance to come up with suggestions together. Someone might have thought of a solution that you would like better than your own. That has happened to me! When people in my groups had "buy in" from the beginning stage of deciding to work out an issue, to talking together to find solutions, to the end of having to implement a change after the decision, then they wanted to respect and remember the new changes.

Consensus can be different from taking a vote. I think that making some effort to hear and try to accommodate everyone's different perspectives before coming to a conclusion is helpful. Sometimes my old group decided not to change a current practice, but because they recognized that a minority had a difficulty with it, they made a much smaller change that improved things for the minority opinions. Right now an Al-Anon group I'm in is deciding whether to change from sharing by going in order around the circle to sharing pop corn style. My vote would be to stay with the circle order, but I will probably hear lots of other people's very good reasons why they want to change that. In a vote I would vote no to the change and accept the decision if I am out-voted. With a consensus decision I have the opportunity to view it as giving my consent to a change that I might not want for myself but do actually want for the sake of the other people my group.

All this is my opinion, not CAL, so please take what you like and leave the rest. And my experience is in consensus decision-making, not group conscience, but it seems to work the same to me. Also it must be said that making decisions by consensus is not very time efficient.

You can appeal all you want, as I did. They are as powerless as any of us because every group and district is still FREE to interpret the traditions however they do.   This is not to say that your situation won't unfold in a pleasing way for you, and I hope that it does.

For me, when I found certain groups causing me more stress than peace (no differently than the old alcoholic relationship) I realized I was being given an "opportunity" to experience serenity directly (through spiritual awareness/step 11.)  I realized nothing is missing in the 12 steps when "utilized," that's the key.  For me, my deepest desire and prayers were being answered even amid the seeming "trials" and that is the ESH I can share with you.

I can offer one more suggestion, although I have no direct experience using this particular CAL material:

Talk To Each Other/Resolving Conflicts within Al-Anon (S-73)

This is a kit that includes suggestions for groups, districts, AIS/LDCs, etc. to use in conflict resolution. The kit contains:

Ideas for conflict resolution using an informed group conscience
Things to think about as an individual
Guide for Holding a Discussion to Resolve Conflict
Loving Interchange to Resolve Conflict Wallet Card (S-71)
Conflict Resolution Using Our Twelve Traditions cards (S-72)


Brightest Blessings ((Walt))  Stay open minded to your Higher Power's ability to bring you every fulfillment.

Thanks all. I am realizing from each of your sharings that there is very good program here.

LET'S JUST LET IT BE!!!!!

Sandra (MY DISTRICT 4 REPRESENTATIVE)

I shared my experience with 3 members who I felt were leaders with good programs. They were not able to see what I 
was sharing, for whatever reason.

So, that is all I can and should do: to carry the message, so let us just let it be.

I choose to move on now in a different direction as I no longer live with either an active or recovering alcoholic for she 
passed away 13 years ago. I just wanted to strengthen my serenity and way of life with my current co-Al Anon 2nd wife 
and I have the tools to do that without this particular AFG.

Thank you for helping.

Walt of Port Orange

 

-- Edited by Walt on Tuesday 28th of August 2018 09:31:02 AM

-- Edited by Walt on Tuesday 28th of August 2018 09:37:14 AM

My HP did not leave me out to hang there when not attending
My former AFG.

Monday evening I practice in the 125 voice Stetson Choral Union
In Deland, Tues evening I practice in the Daytona State College
Civic Orchestra playing violin, on Wed evening sing in the Church Choir
Rehearsals and finally on Friday play golf.

Then I rest.

HELPING BEGINNERS GET STARTED IN AL ANON
_________________________________________

In 2 different AFGs I tried to get a Beginners Breakout started but could not
get interest to do that.

What I would see was a Beginner come in, someone would greet them, hand
them a Newcomers Packet, Meeting list and Phone Numbers and then just
let them on their own.

I always felt that was a start but that we should go further as they had no clue
of what our words meant, how to share and instead would just vent and dump
about their alcoholic.

I felt, from my shared leading a Beginners Group of 20-40 eginners that it would
be more helpful to them to break them out into a small informal discussion and explain
just the basics, like Steps 1-3, the Disease Concept, terminology used in meetings
and to not Crosstalk, etc.

But no, I could not get interest to do that. I even had a GR, who I happened to know
Personally say to me that for they psat 16 Years that was not needed and to stop
trying to change things. I soon left that meeting too.

What has any of you readers experience been on helping Beginners?

Our group is decently sized and we are fortunate to have multiple rooms to break off in. What usually happens, just for thought, in our meetings is we gather together, do the opening, introductions and ask if anyone is new. If no new members, we then count off 1, 2, 3, etc. depending upon how many are present. We like to break into smaller groups of 6-7 persons.

If there are new members, they go with group 2 and group 2 does a first step meeting. All others discuss the topic shared in the opening. The exception is once a month, we do a step study and those who want to participate in the step study break away first, then they count off.

This has come to be over 13 years - it's not always been as it is. I'm with Serenity - keep doing you and keep the ideas flowing!

Hope your golf game was better than mine Walt!!! (((Hugs)))