The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Hi. I'm not new to Al Anon but came here because I have a question that I don't want to bring up with my sponsor or homegroup. I apologize in advance because I'm sure many of you have been cheated on. To the point, I'm a woman married to an alcoholic and I'm starting to pursue a relationship with another man. I had already made the decision to do this but don't have my usual resources like the group or sponsor. Hoping that somebody here has been in a similar situation and can share their experience.
Just a little background. I'm 40, we have three kids and a life that is mostly pretty good. Or should be good but isn't. My husband is quite functional. He definitely has problems (obviously) but we do ok. I am considering divorce but haven't come to a decision on that. He is very good at hiding his addiction and the kids don't know it's a problem yet. In fact they adore him. He's creative and can be fun.
The problem is he will not touch me. At all. I've tried for years to explain to him that I need and want physical affection. Hugging, kissing even just a gentle touch on the shoulder. He won't do any of it. I can instigate sex once in awhile but it's terrible and I can tell he isn't into it which just leaves me feeling foolish and empty. Throughout our relationship he has been very insecure at times. He's accused me of various things but the one that hurt the most was that I was cheating. I never have and have never even come close. AlAnon later helped me understand that this was part of the disease. He carries a lot of shame and this typically comes out towards me in various ways. He loves to tell me how wrong I am. He got the ugliest when he had decided I was sleeping with someone else and it still feels like he's punishing me.
Before AlAnon I tried to solve this. I put myself through hell trying to please him, fix his problems and make him love me. I beat myself up because I had to be doing something wrong. Was I too nagging and needy? Was I not attractive enough? I've been able to move past most of this kind of thinking with AlAnon's help.
If we were just going to split up then I would just wait but it might not happen. I want to have some kind of relationship and I'm no longer willing to wait for him. He's refused couple's counseling. He tried AA for a few weeks then gave it up. He won't speak honestly with me about our issues or what underlying problems he experiences. I can't fix his problems for him. I can't make him love me.
But I can find serenity and even happiness for myself. And this possible new relationship feels good. Not because I'm angry or resentful. But rather because it could bring something good into my life that I need. I feel like I'm *putting the focus on me* in a way. But then I wonder if I've somehow distorted the AlAnon message for my own selfishness. I know most people would consider an affair to be immoral. But I've also had friends in the program who, after gaining recovery made the decision to divorce their spouse, also considered to be immoral by many.
I could go on but I think it would just be me trying to justify and explain. If I get into this relationship I feel I'm coming from a position of this being about me and my decision to have something nice for myself. I never imagined I would be faced with such a decision. In the past I can't stand cheaters. But this isn't some little tryst. I'm not playing around or trying to dramatically explode my marriage. I welcome your thoughts and especially how AlAnon can help in a grey area decision like this.
Hi MizzTj, I am in the same situation regarding the lack of intimacy. I have so far been faithful but honestly, I don't know why. I've been talking to another guy but I know it will never go beyond talking. I am really interested to hear the responses of others on this. But know you are not alone in this particular problem.
__________________
"To change the world, start with one step. However small, first step is hardest of all" Dave Matthews Band
hey MizzTj.......I can relate to your post...My first alcoholic husband was REAL cold...no hugs...no kisses...nothing unless HE was horney, which came only when the moon was full....If its too cloudy?? it was a famine........anway, I tried to "turn him on" tried to instigate affection only to be pushed away....AND he was mentally abusive, big time on top of this...so it was a double loser
I went to a night club with a friend of mine...she felt sorry for me and took me "clubbing" at a place that served food and had a band where you had dancing....I ate (this was in CA) king crab legs and a big sweet potato adn had a great dinner with my girlfriend.....we decided to stay and have a few beers and listen to the music....After dinner we moved out into the bar area and we sat at a table and we were both real cute so it didn't take the guys long to begin flocking at our table asking for dances....I had a ball!! I felt beautiful again..desirable...female...wanted....even cherished by this one fellow in particular who took a shine to me in a big way...he was a dentist..2 years older than I and a very very well spoken, nice man....I was straight with hi....I told him I was married, still, but wanted out, waiting for my income tax return check to come and I was moving.....so really I did'tn want to date until I got out of that situation....he , after talking with each other all eveneing , dancing, sharing a lot of stuff (i noticed that he drank like i did..sparingly, more interested in the music and dancing then the beer, and also the great peanuts they had) so that was another plus....He asked me if he could walk me to my car...I said was with my g.f. and SHE had also met someone and so the guys walked us both to the car....it just so happened that Mr. Dentist was parked one car over from us so we hung out at our cars, talking some more...then it was time for me to go....he walked me to the passenger side, helped me in the car and said he wanted to help me get out...."if you really want out, I'll help you, i like you and want to help you" I told him it was wrong to take money from a guy I wasn't in a relationship with "let me get out on my tax check...worse case scenario, I'll show my return to my landlord and HE will loan me the money, pending my IRS return...but let me do it the right way" he said he liked me even more, but he was available, then to help me move if I wouldn't take his money.....I thanked him but said I had to get out of this mess as I had gotten me into it......he ASKED me if he could give me a kiss goodnight.....I was so starved for affection and attention, I said "YES" he put his arms around me gently and he kissed me very softly on my face...I felt myself flush and he kissed me on the mouth and I responded...He had gorgeous thick auburn hair with cinnamon brown eyes, and he smelled delicious........we kissed a few times, finally I told him that much as I loved this, it wasn't right, I wasn't out of there yet, and had to clean up my life first......He gave me his telephone numbers, even his parents house because he visited them often, he wanted me to have all his numbers in case I had to get help.....I thanked him and stuck the card in the fold of my purse.....
When we were driving home, my g.f. told me that that guy was "mr. wonderful" and "what are you gonna do???" I told her that for sure I would be out of there come hell or high water.....I had "tasted" affection and NICENESS from another man...there was no going back for me.....I had crossed a line and I knew, the way I responded and all, that there would be no more trying with my AH......
she dropped me off, I got inside and he was drinking and watching TV...he wanted to know why I was so late and I just told him that me adn "W" had fun and we didn't want to end the night till we had to.....he then asked me if I danced with other fellows....I said I had...I went into my room, showered and as I was readying myself for bed, I thought about the evening...as I was pondering approaching the landlord for a loan, AH came into the bedroom...I think seeing me in my matching skirt and top, hair done just right, flushed from a fun evening out, turned him on...He indicated he wanted to "be with me" I told him I was very tired and "no--good night" I didn't want him to touch me ever again as it was over for me...I was outta there...
the next day, I couldn't find mr. landlord, so i just went driving around , looking for places and thats when I found this cute 3 houses on a lot, the cottage in back was tiny...surely they didnt' want much rent...I'll stop and talk to the landlady who was outside, tidying up the messy, over grown with weeds yard and yard furniture...I stopped and chatted with her and I just told her "I'm flat broke..waiting for my IRS check, but if you will let me do handygirl stuff around here in exchange for rent, I sure could use the help...I'm married to an abusive alcoholic and I NEED to get out" she looked at me and took ahold of my hand and said "can ya fix that god awful ugly fence???" I said "sure...get some new pickets...tear down the bad ones....paint the whole thing as a lot of them are salvagable....sure I can do a lot of stuff" she told me if I could fix this place up, yard, fence and paint the back garage that was her storage area....I had a house.......we shook hands....I went with her to buy all the supplies and I moved out that day, evening....GOD it was nice having my own peaceful little teeny place....I had to leave the house to change my mind it was that small, but it was SAFE and it was MY place....
When I kissed the dentist, I had crossed a line...I knew things with my AH would never ever be the same....he would never change, but I had...I had gotten a taste of what it is like to be the lovely, pretty girl I used to be b4 I got hitched up with him and his coldness and abusive way and I wanted and loved that feeling....With him, I was dying inside...I didn't feel pretty anymore...I didn't care, much, how I looked and thats not me.....I had wilted...I saw it, finally that evening at the restaurant that I needed to CHANGE ME........and i did.............Sending you HUGS of support
Welcome to MIP MizzTJ - glad you found us and glad that you joined right in. I can't relate to your situation as I have been cheated on and learned through my own pain how devastating it felt and swore that would not ever be a way that I take care of self.
I had tremendous guilt when I was separated and picked up a thing with an old flame many moons ago. That guilt kept me active in this disease (double winner - AA & Al-Anon) for a long while as I could not deal with the guilt.
I don't waive a moral flag and certainly don't judge anyone for anything they decide to do. My best suggestion is that you make sure you are ready for the potential outcome and that it may be very different than desired/planned. The program and recovery gave me back the gift of me and the me of today would get a divorce if I felt the need to 'step out'...Take what you like and leave the rest behind.
__________________
Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Welcome, MizzTJ. I imagine many if not most of us have been faced with similar questions in our journeys.
I am not trying to be judgmental in any way because I think outsiders can never really understand what a particular relationship is like. Some questions come to mind for me which I just pose in case they are useful.
What I found in my quest to understand how I'd arrived at where I was, is that unconciously I was agreeing to relationships where there wasn't really a chance of full intimacy. I knew I wanted real intimacy. But I think the feeling of not having it was so familiar that it felt "normal." Maybe even "right." So when my A turned out to be more attached to the bottle than to me, I didn't leave him in the dust as some would have. I had gotten our lives entwined and I thought maybe I could change him and I think I even didn't know that a better relationship was realistic. My history has been of getting involved with men who had some reason they couldn't really commit. For the few who could - bizarrely, I had some reason I couldn't.
So my thought about this new possibility that you're thinking of is that it's like my history of relationships - once again there's no danger of full intimacy, of real commitment, because you're already married. But my history like that was actually not very happy. I am wondering if you don't deserve full happiness, instead of small secret doses of promise on the side.
Another thing that occurs to me is that your A has already blamed you for "cheating." He sounds a bit controlling or paranoid, as many A's tend to be. Introducing an actual affair into the mix - well, I worry that at best it could make things dramatic and miserable, and at worst it could be actually dangerous for you.
I also know that after some years with my A, I was so unhappy and starving for affection that high-drama things were a relief for me. The intensity helped distract me from the ongoing pain. Your situation would probably be like that, I'd guess. The ongoing pain would still be ongoing, because your A would still be drinking and neglectful and you'd still be married to him. So it doesn't actually solve that problem. It just adds a complication. The intensity can be thrillingly distracting at first - but the complications can just add to misery.
I know you must have reasons that you're not thinking that Plan A is to divorce or separate from your A and then to start this new affair. I wonder if that's really not an option. I get that separation is often complicated and full of aggravations and worse. But then you'd be free and clear. So the short term is worse, but the long term is better. I think part of my own problem was that I was so unhappy that I often went for the short term, and didn't take care of the long term.
Just some thoughts. I hope you'll take good care of yourself.
-- Edited by Mattie on Thursday 17th of August 2017 11:04:20 PM
I have had more affairs than I wish to wag a stick at and guess what I learned about me...I know how to pick alcoholics and addicts...it had never changed for me until I got INTO the program and stopped that part of me which included partners I drank and did other stuff with. I know we call it "sleeping with" and then I just had to get honest with myself and the other guys in program I hung around with. It isn't sleeping!! I found out I had a special nerve ending addiction...yeah that's what it is and while it would be nice to have had a good relationship I didn't know how to do that and neither did the women I hooked up with. So I stopped until I found a more stable program partner...mind, body, spirit and emotions and guess what? Intimacy...means something else today and life is still very good. Keep coming back. ((((hugs))))
I think this is a hard one and I completely understand. An active drinker is unavailable on many level, selfish and self centred and I can say the same of myself when Im emotionally unavailable. Its an awful disease. I got to 40 and sex became really important to me, or maybe intimacy and it coincided with joining Alanon, I left my ex ah, so I was free to pursue an intimate relationship and Im now in a relationship.
Alanon is about doing what makes you feel good about yourself, on the one hand intimacy and sex will make you feel good, it can become a bit addictive though. You recognise your needs and wants a s a woman in her forties and life is so very short, I got this urgency that If I want something then now is the time to go get it, its later than we think.
On the other hand will cheating make you feel good about yourself? its unlikely, its an honest program and its about building self worth but you may feel guilt for this, maybe not, should you feel guilt, for me, not really. Would the right thing to do be telling him straight, you dont have an intimate relationship and you have the need, its human and God given and nothing to be ashamed of in my opinion. Personally, I dont like the idea of hiding anything. I spent my whole life living this way before Alanon and its fear based and shame filled and that is exactly what im recovering from, so in order to recover Ive got to be up front and honest and the other persons reaction is theirs and not really my business.
I feel that when we live with an active drinker we become the extra on the movie of their life, its so sick. Its like well I made a committment, I married him, well so did he, its a partnership and if the partnership becomes broken and intolerable then its perfectly reasonable to walk away and try again with someone else? Staying for the sake of children is another illusion, if our primary role as Mother is to set an example, go get happiness, set the example that way, living life to the full, having love, closeness, connections in your life, set that example. whats the example no with the active drinker? most likely pretty miserable, lack of affection can be abusive. I hope you find your answers.
Thank you all. I was really afraid this topic might hit sore spots for some people and there would be some angry messages. You all have some slightly different viewpoints but I have to say I agree with all of you LoL. I know this wouldn't make me happy, it wouldn't provide the full intimacy that I actually want and deserve. I accept that and know that those are not my goals in this new relationship. I've had other situations in this marriage where there doesn't seem to be a next right thing but rather the next-best right thing. This feels like that. Mamalioness thank you in particular. I can relate to many of those feelings although my situation was quite different.
Living with this disease I develop twisted coping mechanisms. I was isolated after changing my life to accomodate his drinking. With the program I've learned that I shouldn't stop living the rest of my life because of him. He wants to get drunk when we're with friends, fine, I'll talk to the people on the other side of the room instead of avoiding the gathering completely. I want to take a walk in the morning but he's too hungover so I go without him. Or go get coffee with my girlfriends and not worry about how pissy he's going to be about it. There are many good things that my husband isn't interested in and thanks to Al-Anon I realize that I don't have to wait for him to change to enjoy those things.
I've come to the conclusion that my sex life is no different than anything else. I don't have to amputate pieces of myself to make him happy. I've already done that and it makes no difference. I don't believe that I have to worry about his reaction if he somehow found out. I already know how nasty he can get.
No The situation is not ideal. I don't feel particularly guilty, I've already been down that path. I'm done beating myself up. I wish things were different of course.
Someone asked how I might feel about myself if I continue. If I were coming into this from a place of resentment or anger or any negativity I'm sure I'd feel terrible. That's not the case anymore and I'm truly glad that I was never in this position when I had those feelings because it would have devastated me I'm sure. Instead I feel like much of my program has been about learning to do for myself and stop worrying about what my husband is doing, not doing, his potential displeasure, etc. I've learned to let go of the resentments. Just taking the first few steps into this relationship has been like a small beam of sunlight suddenly coming into my life. I feel like if I continue moving forward like I plan to that I will be restoring a part of me that I thought was lost.
All of my romantic relationships I thought it was supposed to be each person does everything they can to make their partner happy and ignore their own needs. I think this was a failure even before marriage. Now I've realized that I should have been taking care of myself first. That's what I try to do now.
Hi thanks for sharing. One thing I have learned over several failed marriages with his infidelity and mine, I cannot be happy by causing someone else misery. I may have felt justified by my actions, neglected angry and hurt, but I chose to be in the relationship with the A. I had to resolve that relationship before trying to move into another one. I have been told my picker is damaged. I always find the neediest person in the room. I find broken people because I am broken. I must work on fixing me, getting healthy myself before I should be in a relationship with anyone. I certainly shouldn't jump from one to another without finishing the one I am in first. Just saying that is what i have to do for me. Take what you like leave the rest.
Things have slowed down somewhat. I'm speaking to a lawyer to better understand my options. I would still like to have this relationship but I'm trying not to force anything. Trying to use every tool at my disposal that Al-Anon has given me and to ask my higher power for guidance and wisdom.
FlyFree you hit the nail on the head with your quote and I thought that might be a Bahia faith quote as I heard a family friend who used to say it and she was of that faith.
I have found for my own life closing one door before starting another is really a healthier way to go and while there are consequences and messes to clean up when things are left undone it is much cleaner to be completely done. I have had the unique experience of seeing both sides of this coin and looking back I have no regrets remaining single until my divorce was finished I had tried to date and it was just to complicated mostly because I had the divorce that wouldn't end. My XAH was just a hot mess to put it mildly. He remarried the day after our divorce became finalized .. I have also seen someone leave an unhappy relationship and not been happy because they were not happy with themselves and needed that break and time to heal. They jumped straight into another relationship 3x and continued to get married .. for me that's a yikes .. LOL ... they are happy or appear to be so it is what it is.
That time to breathe for me was a time to figure me out. If I wasn't in a relationship then who was I and I never really learned at that point. I'm still learning and still trying to decide if relationships are for me. I still walk a fence on that issue .. lol .. different topic.
Knowing what you want without the trappings of what if is just an easier way to go. That's all my opinion.
Hugs S :)
__________________
Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
Hi MizzTJ. Just popping in to say I can relate to your share so much. My marriage has been without any intimacy for the last couple years- and I'm also in my forties. It is hard to live with.
the honesty of el-cc has been the point guiding me. WIll it make me happy to be with someone else? Not while I'm still with ABF. I will hate myself. I would change my view of who I am and I already have that happening with the ABF. It's things to think about for me certainly. This thread is very thought provoking for me in a similar situation and heading for my 40s.
__________________
"To change the world, start with one step. However small, first step is hardest of all" Dave Matthews Band
