"Folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be." Abe Lincoln

Sportgear · Veteran Member

RE: When Detachment Destroys Families

Sportgear · Veteran Member

You all are correct, I am wasting my time on the subject. Here are the facts...my family is permanently split, my Father passed away on bad terms with two of his kids. My mother loves some kids and not others. My family will spend their 3rd Christmas without other family due to being ostracism. I was 22 when my parents went into recovery. I felt the full extent of the alcoholism of my parents. At least when they drank we spent time together. Now they prefer an AA meeting to spending family time. They care more about sponsees than their own kids. We are moving forward and leaving it all behind. I would take the drinking over this anyday.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

What about trying alanon for you. I have no parents but each week I go to a meeting and feel like I've got 15 mothers and the odd father or 2. It is like a family. You could get some of that love in your life. Sometimes our family just dont have it to give. What you got to lose?

Sportgear · Veteran Member

I will not indulge myself into a program that destoyed my family life through over indulgence of my family.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Well enjoy your misery then. its always here and theres a seat with your name on it.

-- Edited by el-cee on Wednesday 2nd of November 2016 01:14:51 PM

MissM · Senior Member

A lot of the way you describe your family also describes mine, but, none of my family have ever been a part of any kind of recovery program and know less than zero about AA or al-anon. Still, the same behaviour exists; passive aggressive nonsense, crazy-making, lack of accountability, passing the buck, the whole shebang. They're mostly active alcoholics....I guess my point is, the same dysfunctions can exist program or no program. But I have seen people use their progams to justify this same kind of behaviour and I can absolutely see where you are coming from. Dysfunction is everywhere. And you'll also see people in program working honestly towards better ways of living and people within actively drinking families working towards better ways; there's no one size fits all.

All of it sucks and none of it is fair and debating what your family members should or shouldn't do won't actually change what they do or don't do...and believe me when I tell you that I don't mean that in a disparaging way. What I mean is, there is literally nothing that you can do to change it so why make yourself miserable wishing it was different? What al-anon has helped me to do is to accept that fact and then move on to discovering what I can do to make my life better anyway..regardless of what my family/ ex etc do. At no point does that mean that I am condoning or excusing bad behaviour, it just means, being angry and hurt about it wasn't helping me. It was making me feel crazy and I needed to move forward and start finding my happy regardless.
That's where (to me) the idea of only being responsible for myself and not letting anyone else's decisions/behaviour affect my choices or happiness come in. It's not about 'not being a victim' (God I hate that term). It's about identifying my strengths and what power I actually DO have to improve my life and I have found that being angry or dissapointed in other people steals away my own energy and keeps me stuck suffering for other people's choices.

So I choose to do this (al-anon) because it works for me. It helps me to say "up yours" to the dysfunction and live a happy life that no-one can ruin because only I am responsible for it. I've decided that I deserve that. You do too.

I hope that makes some sense (sorry its a bit rambly), and I've enjoyed this discussion thus far because it touches on issues I've encountered a few times in al-anon and it's been good to hear other people's takes on it. So thank you.

Knowing that you can't actually change your families behaviour by not liking it, do you have any thoughts on what you would like to do? Like even if they continue the way they are forever, what do you feel that you need to find peace and happiness?

MissM · Senior Member

Oh, I hadn't seen your last post when I wrote that. if you're absolutely not interested in al-anon then there's not much left to be said since this is an al-anon discussion board, lol.

Best of luck; I hope you find what you need!
Ciao.

Bethany66 · Senior Member

I heard someone say (not in an AA or Al-Anon context)
"If this situation were to never change, what qualities would I need to aquire to have peace of mind?"

It applies to so many situations. Not a "cop-out" just reality. I can't change them so how can I find peace for myself in spite of this circumstance? That is life on life's terms for sure.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

Enjoy my misery.....wow now there is an original thought. Quite sarcastic actually. My whole point of this discussion was to try to understand the thought process of my mother, sister and brother in their brainwashed state of mind through others in the same situation.....what I found out is some think the same as my mother and others are actually doing well in understanding my situation and helpful.

Bethany66 · Senior Member

Sportgear, what exactly are you looking for here in this forum? If you are looking to understand the thought process of an alcoholic, whether in recovery (to your satisfaction) or not, you may be searching in vain. I believe the Al-Anon program, when worked correctly, was designed to give hope and healing to those who have been affected by alcoholism. The first step of this program is the admit we are powerless. If you can't get that far, that is fine. You stay stuck. Your choice, and none of the rest of us (who are powerless) can help you. If you want knowledge that is not based on our human experiences, maybe try going to the library and looking at books on alcoholism. Here in this forum we work the 12 steps of Al-Anon, share our experience, hope and strength with each other, and work on our program in our own lives.

I wish you all the best, but we aren't here to justify, argue or defend. We are here to encourage through sharing of our own experiences.

I wish you the best in your journey, this is where I bow out.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

Bethany, yes I do have a problem with that first step.....none of us are powerless unless dead....we all have the power to change things, make decisions, work on issues etc. Saying we are powerless over our situation is not correct.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

I got enjoyment from my misery. Never realised it at the time but I got to take no responsibility for my own state of mind when I was blaming my alcoholic husband or my alcoholic father or my effected by alcoholism mother. I got to blame them for how I felt and changed nothing. I got to play the victim had loads of boohoo stories. Endless tales of he did or she did this to me. Yeah definitely enjoyment in it. Also the martyr thing. Look at what I do for them and they treat me like that. I was deep in a pity party and I couldn't see it. Addicted to drama. Excited misery. I've been there and I know it when I see it.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Overall though thank you for posting. It's brought out some real good examples of recovery that I'm going to think over and take what I like.

milkwood · ~*Service Worker*~

Greetings Sportsgear, This has been a really lively and thought provoking thread, thank you for that.

I can not imagine how difficult it is growing up surrounded by alcoholism, and then when the drinking stops and you might all find a bit of peace and be reunited, I imagine that I would feel disappointment and anger at loosing my family all over again to yet another cause.

My husband, who is my qualifier, has not gone to AA or any other programme, but has still remained largely unavailable for the three years that he has been sober. He has his own battles to fight, and they are important and not easy. I respect that is where his energy needs to be right now.

I think that I felt fairly angry about that for a while - I didn't like feeling lonely in my marriage! Then I decided that I didn't want to become a bitter old lady when I grew up so I started to look at myself, and at my own life, and think about what I could do to make myself happier and living more worthwhile. I wanted to get out of bed in the morning feeling good about the world. So I had to think about what that would take, assuming that I couldn't rely on other people to do it for me

.

It wasn't easy taking my attention off my husband, I had been watching his back for so long it had become a habit. But it has been really worthwhile and empowering and I suspect that I am a better person to be around as a result!

This, for me, is where accepting that I was powerless over alcoholism has got me... I've got so much more energy to enjoy my life, whatever it brings my way these days.

It takes all sorts, and we all have our own ways of doing things. Finding our way is interesting. That's a good thing isn't it?

kspec85 · Veteran Member

"""Bethany, yes I do have a problem with that first step.....none of us are powerless unless dead....we all have the power to change things, make decisions, work on issues etc. Saying we are powerless over our situation is not correct."""

Sportgear- I understand your problem with the first step. I have struggled with the first step and what exactly it meant. For me, admitting powerlessness was a difficult thing. In admitting my powerlessness over others and their alcoholism and addiction, I have gained power in other areas in my life. This power serves me better by allowing others to make decisions for themselves while having the freedom to make choices in my best interest without letting others influence my feelings.

For instance if I am not busy trying to figure out the motives of others, I can take the time to examine my own and perhaps change my own negative thinking, thus increasing my overall happiness with myself.

If I am not obsessing over someone else's using or drinking, I am free to obsess over activities that I may enjoy to create new experiences and connections with other people that are focusing on themselves as well.

If I am learning to not take on responsibility for the actions of others, I am free of the guilt and shame that comes with the irresponsible actions of others.

In taking responsibility for myself and the decisions I make in my own life, I am no longer able to blame others for the consequences of my own actions. This eases the emotional strain in the relationships I care about.

I do not have the power to make the wind blow. I do not have the power to change the tide. I cannot raise the moon or set the sun. I cannot make anyone do anything they do not wish to do. Even if they bend to my will, they will resent me for it if it makes their life "worse". If they bend to my will and it makes their life "better" they lost the opportunity to raise their own value by knowing they were responsible for the change (all this would do is raise my own ego). Trying to control anyone but myself has always, and will always, lead to resentment and disappointment. I do not wish to live the rest of my life miserable and obsessing over others. The world lifted from my shoulders when I chose to no longer carry the burden of everyone around me.

-- Edited by kspec85 on Wednesday 2nd of November 2016 03:13:50 PM

-- Edited by kspec85 on Wednesday 2nd of November 2016 03:17:19 PM

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Sportgear wrote:
Enjoy my misery.....wow now there is an original thought. Quite sarcastic actually. My whole point of this discussion was to try to understand the thought process of my mother, sister and brother in their brainwashed state of mind through others in the same situation.....what I found out is some think the same as my mother and others are actually doing well in understanding my situation and helpful.

It's not our job to understand your situation. Your desire to understand another's thought process. I'm trying to pull out the facts to respond to you as simply as I possibly can.

What we believe in Al-Anon is we can not ever understand another's thought process. We also can not fully understand what is in their heart, mind, spirit or soul. All that we can fully understand is our own truth. All that we can fully control is our own thoughts, actions, reactions, responses, etc. This is where powerlessness comes in. We are not suggesting we lay down, become door mats or accept unacceptable behavior. Instead, we admit we are powerless over other people, places and things.

We believe in Al-Anon that our power comes from a spiritual journey. The 12 Steps are the structure for that journey. There is literature we use (in AA & Al-Anon) and each person has their own journey.

So detachment is a suggested tool. There is a difference between detachment and disengagement. Here's a concise write-up that I found...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Detachment Or Disengagement

There is a dramatic difference between detachment and disengagement.

Detachment is when I am not responsible for you.

-I am not responsible for your feelings.

-I am not responsible for your outcomes.

-I am not responsible for your attitudes.

-I am not responsible for the consequences of your actions.

-I am not responsible for the consequences of your decisions.

-I am not responsible for your behaviors.

-I am not responsible for your stress.

When I detach from your stuff, and it is your stuff, I let you grow and learn what life wants you to learn from your errors in judgment, mistakes and actions at any given point in time. I am there to support you, help you where you feel I can help but you must do the work.

Disengagement is where, not only do I detach, but I don't even care what is happening to you or why or when or how. I have completely cut you off emotionally. I just don't give a rip.

Detachment helps others grow, learn and develop if you will only let them.

Disengagement puts distance, often un-repairable distance, between you and your partner.

Detachment can often be perceived by others as disengagement when they have a great deal of emotional work to do on themselves. When you detach they will often default back to blaming you for their conditions, circumstances or outcomes. It is at these times when we must be strong not only for ourselves but for others as well.

We all have to learn life's lessons sooner or later. We can learn them the easy way or the hard way but life doesn't care. The lessons keep coming and coming. You can whine, complain, feel like a victim or you can get on with it. It's your choice.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In recovery, we learn to stop fighting everything and everyone. This includes EVERYTHING and EVERYONE. More often than not, families with addiction have dysfunction. When one finds recovery, they are trying to be better, do better, live better and seek serenity. In no point of recovery does either program suggest they are responsible for fixing anybody else.

If you want to understand people, you might need to find a new forum. If you want to embrace/understand recovery, you're in the right place.

kspec85 · Veteran Member

I would like to say also, I really really am enjoying this thread. Lots of introspection for me. I appreciate it very much today.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Overall though thank you for posting. It's brought out some real good examples of recovery that I'm going to think over and take what I like.

sarahGee · Senior Member

This has been an awesome read. This Al Anon rookie has thoroughly enjoyed it. My ex was in AA and used it as an excuse for crappy behaviour all time. I cringed at the idea of entering a 12 step program myself because of what I experienced with him. But I did. I recognized that he was not at all working his program properly, merely attending meetings. I also realized, that was not my problem! I admitted I was powerless over him, the way he behaved and the way he manipulated AA ideas and practices to suit his own agenda. People in Al Anon are sick as well, it makes sense that a percentage of them would be manipulating al Anon ideas to suit their agenda. Bless them, change me :) Also - I wanted to say that I'm sorry your family has split up. Mine has too and sometimes it makes me really sad. I'm powerless over that as well. To me, powerlessness means that I have no control over the action of others. Yes we have power in our lives, but it's only purpose is to change and work on ourselves amongst the storm.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

To Iamhere.... you know, apparently you feel as if you can tell peoplw to just get over it and move on....stop whining etc. This is the obnoxious long term meeting person attitude thst I despise. If we don't have positive things to say then just move off the forum eh? Its people like you that need to move on.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

That's a little much, Sportgear.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

And to say you are never responsible for what happens to others is absurd at best. If you detach from someone by ostracizing them from the family this inflicts major pain on that family because you selfishly want peace and harmony by removing them. What a crock....as family you sit down and work out the differences. THIS detachment crap ruins lives and families. If any of you completely detach and do not want to see a family member be prepared for it to be permanent....are you up for that?

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Sportgear - I hope you find what you are looking for. I have learned to not take personally the emotions of another. Therefore, I am detaching from you. I will not join your pity party complete with blame games. That is how I arrived, sicker than those around me and always looking beyond myself for the cause and the solution. I wish you well....

If you ever want to work on your anger and issues, I'll gladly rejoin a discussion with you about recovery. If you want to hang out and continue to bash recovery, I'll disengage.

As far as the thread, yes - it was great with all the reasons why we are here and why we are seeking recovery. There are parts though that clearly helped me 'see' our need (Al-Anon members) to please and fix others, and makes me so grateful I checked my ego at the door and am working to be a different person today.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

Content removed by moderator for personal attack against another member.

-- Edited by Iamhere on Thursday 3rd of November 2016 09:49:31 AM

kspec85 · Veteran Member

The disease creates massive amounts of denial. This denial at times will be fiercely defended. Sometimes, sitting down to talk things out is more of a merry-go-round. They deny, we beg, plead and attempt to "help them understand" while they continue to twist, deny and justify their actions. Ostracizing is banishment. I am sorry is you feel that your family banished your loved one. This is not what AFG teach.

As someone previously mentioned, Al Anon is made up of real human beings who have all been hurt. With any population of the general public, there are going to be people who bend circumstances to their will and agenda. It sounds as if you feel your family has done this. I am so sorry you are hurting.

Imagine ten people from different walks of life are signed up for karate. The basis of karate is the same, it never changes. Discipline, meditation, self defense, and practice. All of these are good things. I promise you, only a few people are going to take the good path in what they learn. The others are just going to use the technical skills they learned as a reason and means to go out and kick peoples asses to feel strong and superior. Doesn't mean that karate is to blame.......

-- Edited by kspec85 on Thursday 3rd of November 2016 09:36:16 AM

Sportgear · Veteran Member

And i am glad you are :detaching"....take your self righteousness elsewhere. You have NEVER walked in my shoes.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Sportsgear - I will remind you that personal attacks on anyone are not allowed. Please keep with program principles and share about you, your issues and/or your program. I am requesting you edit your personal attacks or I will. Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

Make sure you edit your personal attacks on me as you are editing

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

There have been no personal attacks on your person. If you read through all posts, members here are sharing their ESH and giving you answers to your questions. If this thread can not continue with the original topic, it will be closed.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

BS, you mentioned pity party, whining etc. Those are personal attacks.

Sportgear · Veteran Member

Your behavior is very typical of people in these programs for so long. You cannot ever see your issues and always call the other person sick and needy or whatever you feel a need to shame them with. My mother does this. Had she not been in AA Alanon over these many years her life accomplishments would be very few but now she hangs her hat on being a sponsor and guru who is self righteous and above the fray.....she is never wrong and the others are always sick....typical.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

Iamhere is using the language of our program, we come to accept that we have been affected by a disease and therefore we get sick within this disease of alcoholism. Why are you here picking fights?

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

This thread is closed....No more posts please - it's gone way off topic and not remotely related to Al-Anon or recovery. Thank you.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

"Folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be." Abe Lincoln

"Folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be." Abe Lincoln

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene