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I really don't want to post this. Because I feel like it is too complex to describe. But I'll try to be simple. I'm curious if others have had a similar experience/feeling about sex with their A, with the A using it as a drug. Or maybe that's something that people in general do, and some of them happen to be A's? I have been going back and reading a lot of the posts on sex, but I don't see this particular angle.
My AH and I have been married for almost 15 years. I only discovered there was an alcohol problem 2 years ago. But for me, I was struggling in our marriage for about 5 years before that. Our early sex life was great. Once kids came along, it was pretty typical in that I was tired, it didn't happen very much. But when it did, it was good.
But, about halfway into our marriage, I started struggling with his overall approach to life, which to me felt like he was mainly asleep. He was very devoted to our family, very sweet, helpful etc, but he had a lot of resistance to a lot of things. He kept me up with his snoring, and we had a lot of struggles with that. He was our sole provider (which we both agreed we wanted during that time in our children's lives), but he put little effort into his career. It was like he was on auto pilot. He just wanted to plug along, with no goals or overall direction. Never challenging himself. He said "no I won't" to many things that could have helped him develop his career, because he had a lot of fear and mistrust. It was like he put all his life energy into our family life, which was also what I was doing, so nobody was really staying on top of the breadwinning part. He would state desires (for a certain future job, or more $), but there was no attention/energy into how to make that happen.)
Anyhow. These external things, and others, were frustrating to me. They did affect how I felt about him overall. Meanwhile, when we did have sex, while it was good, there was something underlying it that I could not describe, but which felt... yucky. In retrospect, it felt kinda like sex was a drug for him. But also like he was approaching it as a child would seek comfort from their mother. So maybe a numbing drug? It is really hard to explain. I know sex can be a nice way to forget about the outside world, but ... it was more than that. Even though it was sexy, I could not shake the feeling that he was using it, and me, to further not deal with reality. Does that make any sense?
After his drinking problem developed and came to light, he said that he drank to deal with his anxiety. No enjoyment. Just a quick chug of hard liquor to numb his anxiety. Now, it's been 18 months since we have been intimate. The trust and intimacy were so broken. He accused me of so many things, said so many horrible things to me -- and would literally turn around and suggest we hop in the sack. I kept telling him I wasn't going to do that kind of fight and make-up cycle when it came to sex. Last time we tried, I literally could not continue because my anger and fear were too great.
He is very angry about our continued lack of sex, even though I moved out in July. He bring it up at least every week or two -- keeping count of how long it has been (that's how I know it has been 18 months). He now can articulate that sex really helped him with his anxiety, that it calmed him, and that he thinks it is abusive that I withhold it from him. I told a girlfriend, a RA, how I had felt about sex with him. She told me that she had felt similar about sex, when she was not sober. That she was using her partner to further numb her. That it was selfish sex. But, then I get confused. We all use sex to meet our own sexual needs, as well as to share love. So is there some kind of line there that gets crossed when addictive behavior is involved?
Anyhow, as he and I drag along, not separated but not unseparated, him berating me for not having sex with him, it is an area in which I struggle. I feel guilt. My husband apparently NEEDED sex with me to calm his anxiety (I do understand he could have also developed other coping behaviors, but he says they are not the same as sex). And I withheld sex from him, because of other issues. I was not trying to punish him, I just did not desire that closeness with someone that wasn't taking care of other parts of our shared lives, and was distrustful and verbally abusive. So, I withheld the thing that calmed him, and he turned to drink. What he does now is his choice, but I struggle with the guilt, as well as my longtime feeling of ambiguity to distaste about the role sex played in our lives. Wondering if that lines up with others' experiences, or is just how our particular relationship played out. I have a lot of work to do to get over the guilt I have in this arena.
I can relate to pretty much every word you've written here. I couldn't feel attraction when it seemed to be all about what he needed from me (and interestingly, when i think back over it, we NEVER discussed my needs, in fact he'd get angry and shut me down if I so much as hinted that I might not be getting my needs met). How is that fair? Any wonder there was so much resentment! I felt just exactly what you describe, like in some twisted way I was giving some kind of maternal comfort which is in NO way a turn on. It's icky.
I sure can't tell you how to fix it but, I can tell you that you didn't make him drink by not supplying the sex he "needed". Whatever the reason for the physical relationship breaking down, you couldn't have fixed it by yourself and if you'd just gone along with him "for his anxiety" can you imagine how off the charts your resentment levels would be? Perhaps him bringing his anxiety into the bedroom and expecting you to cure it for him was a huge part of the problem! It sure was for me.
We can't make another person drink; I'm sure you've heard of the three c's- you didn't cause it, can't control it and can't cure it. That he is blaming you is sort of part and parcel of how someone with an addiction problem tackles their bad feelings (blame someone who is willing to shoulder the burden). That can't be changed, at least not by you- but you can honor yourself by not shouldering it any longer and instead focusing on what you need and making amends to yourself for allowing yourself to feel guilt over something you couldn't control! I can share that when I ceased allowing myself to feel guilty or upset over the physical dysfunction in our relationship, he stopped whining (after a while) and it slowly improved. Instead of becoming angry or upset I started repeating "I'm not going to get upset over this. It's meant to be fun. Let's try when we're in happier moods" and I believe he got the message eventually.
Hugs. This part of things is really tough; I can't tell you how much angst I have felt over it. "In all our affairs" applies in the bedroom too, lol. Al-anon tools can help, or I found they did
-- Edited by missmeliss on Thursday 21st of April 2016 12:45:40 PM
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
I know that my wife, and (so she has told me) many of her recovering A friends, did kind of the opposite, they would get drunk so they could have sex. This may be a female vs male behavior pattern, I don't know. They would get drunk so they wouldn't have to feel. I'm sure it was a mix of them wanting sex, and them wanting to please their partners. But for my wife, getting drunk was her means of not feeling things, and sex is chock full of feelings of course.
From my side, I know sex absolutely can be used as a drug, I think that is where sex addiction comes from. But I also think it is complicated. I have read, and experienced, that lack of sex can cause depression. For my part, I used to be able to have sex without the connection, for a long time I didn't even understand what the connection was. But now that both wife and I are in recovery, I don't want sex just to have it, I understand the need for connection, and can feel connection because I have given myself permission to feel. I didn't have that permission before recovery.
I think that is common with men, not being able to give ourselves permission to feel. That's why the porn industry is doing so well.
As far as whether you caused him depression because you weren't ready for sex, as you said there are other coping mechanisms. One of them is to actually sit down and talk about why each of you feel the way you do, and how that can be changed. I'm guessing he expressed no feelings on the subject except for frustration with you. But if he would have actually listened to you, instead of just needing to use you to relieve his anxiety, he probably would have found satisfaction. This is my experience anyway, and one reason intimacy is such a risk for men.
Sorry, I've gone and rambled, but it is a hard topic to discuss. Thanks for bringing it up, it is bringing some clarity to me as well towards my wife and mine sexual relationship.
Sheesh. Where do I begin with my feelings on this? Well, I think everyone has their own feelings about sex.
Some people use sex as a tool for control. This is especially true for sex addicts. Generally, if they feel that other things in a relationship are "out of their" control, they use sex to control the relationship. This happened with my ex. He was a sex addict. I don't know how many times he cheated on me, and I don't want to know. His infidelities were his "drug" of choice. They helped him feel like he was in control of something. While he and I were married for 16 years and went through many counselors, for our marriage, he didn't recognize his addiction until after we split up. He went into intense therapy for it.
I was also raped at the age of 19 by someone I was trying to help. He was an alcohol and drug addict. I was a virgin, at the time. He was someone I was trying to help. He showed up at my home one night, completely wasted. He was looking for someone to talk to, and told me I was the only person he trusted, and....everything just went from there. So, because the rest of his life was "out of control", he took something away from me. He contacted me years later, as part of his 12 steps, to apologize for taking that from me.
For me? I view sex as something that is extremely intimate. It is a gift to be given, and received. It is an action form of affection and love.
Ocean, you aren't the cause for his addiction. His addiction could very well be the reason for your lack of desire to be intimate.
I'm sure his accusations were frustrating, but they are just his words. You know that they aren't true. Keep loving yourself and going in the positive direction you have started.
This is one topic that I believe is better discussed with a sponsor.....that's just me/my opinion. Talking about sex and experiences with a group is like talking about our various As - too much difference in how sex is valued, viewed and offered/shared. Having said this, I view making love as a selfless act between two people. You come together to give of yourself to another, not to take. Alcoholism itself manifests in very selfish self-seeking behavior, and often sex is an area that needs it's own 4th step (for the A). It's actually a separate topic in most 4th step guides.
Like most topics, if an A is not in recovery, it is very, very common to switch substances/activities. Many who once abuses alcohol went on to abuse pills and/or take up gambling or food or sex. As I've grown up in recovery on both sides of the table, my views on making love have changed and my needs from the act have changed. In Al-Anon, I had to take a long hard look at this aspect of my marriage just like any/all others. By examining my own motives, I can determine if my choices/actions are aligned with the kind of person I am trying to be.
A sexless marriage, especially when there is a disease present is not uncommon or unheard of. While he may feel as he's said, that it's your fault - is his words any different than others? My qualifiers blamed me for everything, and never took responsibility for their part of any issue, situation or problem. I use the same Al-Anon tools for sensitive subjects and accusations as all others - examine my motives, understand my part and then work to change it.
Married or not, we all have a choice who we lie down with. If I am not feeling it, so be it. If it bothers another, that's on them. What another thinks is not my business - my recovery is my business.
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I see your point IAH. I do think though, that sex is so often a really angsty miserable topic when relationships are broken (and if they weren't broken, most of us wouldn't have sought out al-anon!) It's one of those "miserable secrets" a lot of people keep buried and feel to ashamed/embarrased to talk about. Being able to discuss it and seeing that whatever we are going through isn't that weird, unusual, shameful etc is a good first step towards being able to accept ourselves and look at the bad stuff and see our part in it (instead of hiding from it and trying not to think about it). Kinda like the c2c reading the other day about feeling OK to be ourselves and talk about the awkward stuff. A lot of people don't have a sponsor- I don't-so being able to discuss the nasty feelings that come with broken intimacy it in the group is better than keeping it hidden where it seems a lot darker and scarier than it is! I personally think sharing whatever needs to be shared and reminding each other to keep the focus on ourselves, our feelings and our part in all matters is good!!
Hey look, we feel differently. What were we just saying about diversity? lol!
-- Edited by missmeliss on Thursday 21st of April 2016 02:50:02 PM
__________________
If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
I didn't feel comfortable with sex with my ex a lot of the time either especially of he was drunk. I always felt like an object and really that a all I was not just in bed. He couldn't really see me , the person. I was whatever he decided to think about me in Any given moment If you know what I mean. I've gotten to know myself through alanon and even I didn't know who I was then. Sex was an emotional connection for me, still is and I had lost that through the years with my ex and so our sex life suffered too. I wouldn't pay much attention to the blame game he's playing. Its. Like a child trying to get their own way. They will try a few angles and guilt usually does the trick.
Diversity is great - I was just raised that some topics are not for public consumption - Sex, Religion, Politics are three that pop into my brain. As we say, take what you like and leave the rest.
(((Hugs)))
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I am glad you came here with this and know I too have had these issues with my exAh. I had a very similar situation and felt like I was being used for sex like a tool rather than for intimacy as I perceive it should be for. It took me awhile to sort it out and not use sex to feel whole or close to him as well so that he wouldn't want to stray. It isn't easy being healthy or bringing up sensitive topics, but we all learn from them. I am glad you are here and keep coming back!
-- Edited by Breakingfree on Friday 22nd of April 2016 01:03:41 PM
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
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