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Please help! I don't mind getting opinions, advice, shares, anything will do! Sorry for the messy post with random thoughts.
I'm in India and things work a bit differently here. However, thankfully Alcoholics and co dependents, enablers are the same everywhere, I guess.
I'm asking Questions and then listing the factors so that you kind Al Anon forum members can understand how it works here.
Question - Some experienced people working there (but not the main doctor or experts) told me that he will have to be admitted 3-4 times (thats 2-3 relapses) at least. Its their guess based on the kind of A people they see. Should I get him out of the center and give him a chance once. He's been inside for 7 weeks. My guilty side saw him never sit in one place for more than a minute. Young guy - 29. Guilty that I robbed him of his freedom, but I do know it was for his own good and .. mine too.
Question - Every time I meet him (allowed to meet him once in 15 days), he asks me to promise him that I will take him out of there in 10 days. Now, this is one pressure I am not able to withstand. Even if I didn't promise him, I don't want to break the "implied" promise!
* Had him picked up by something called a center here and put in the in the Alcoholics section. (They also have addicts and mentally-challenged people). He was under influence (using) and so didn't resist too much. ) Its a large independent house with different sections, but with manned iron sliding doors so that insiders cannot escape.
* Its 7 weeks since he's being "treated" (one of the better centers in India).
* I'm feeling better from about 4-5 days. I guess I'm going through my own withdrawals as a co-dependent.
My worries:
* I can't completely stop getting guilty. I know he will be better inside. They say it will take at least 6-8 until he starts really recovering. But, I had him picked up and those thoughts used to kill me. The guilt, i mean. They don't kill me that much now. But feel really really sorry to keep him inside for so long.
* He has a medical issue, an inguinal hernia. I am allowed to meet him once in 15 days (When he desperately tells me to take him out). He tells me that they dont care about his hernia, only his alcoholism. So worried if he'll be ok. He says his stomach pains sometimes and no one cares. not totally sure if he is 100% truthful. I've been told that they'll do anything to get out.
* He had Jaundice a couple of times. Junior doctors at the center told me its not a problem any more. Subsided since he's sober now. I trust this part.
Hi manas.
I'm sure you can appreciate that it's very hard for anyone to offer any advice on this difficult situation as there is so much that we do not and cannot know. However in your own words, he is in one of the "better centers" so, I would tend to think it would be wise to trust in the professionals who are caring for him; in your own words, "they'll do anything to get out". I would think that if he were well enough and of sound mind enough to leave he would be able to do so of his own accord instead of requiring you to remove him?
Al-anon is not about giving advice, in fact it is sort of the opposite. Alanon is about supporting each other to find confidence in our own selves especially when we may have lost sight of our own feelings and ideas amongst the insanity of living with alcoholism. We work on the assumption that not only do we deserve to take good care of ourselves and free ourselves from the destruction of someone else's alcoholism but also that in order to be of service to another person including the alcoholic loved one (if we so wish), we first need to care for and strengthen ourselves and become able to recognise our own needs and boundaries accordingly. As they say, you can't be of use to others if you don't first take care of yourself.
Are there al-anon meetings where you live? That would be a very good place to start and the face to face support might be of great benefit to you at this very difficult time.
Good on you for reaching out, and positive thoughts to both of you. You are not alone!
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If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see? (Lewis Caroll)
Manas, I am sorry for what you are going through. It does sound like you have done the absolute best thing for this person. As you mentioned, you have placed him in one of the best centers, they have medical doctors there to assess his medical needs, and they are knowledgeable about addiction. If you need to do something, perhaps you could talk to the medical staff and make sure they look at his hernia.
Other than that, please remember that you already know you have done what was for his own good and yours, too. Now it is time to take care of yourself. Look at it this way, when he does come out of the center, you want to be as healthy as possible so you can deal with whatever happens then. Hopefully it will be good, but you need to know you will be OK no matter what happens with him. This is where Al-anon can help -- meetings if you can get to them, online or telephone meetings are available too, this forum, and literature you can read.
In Al-anon I began to realize that *I* deserved to be healthy, that I needed a program to focus on myself. The slogans that helped me most in the beginning were "One Day at a Time" and the 3 C's ... I didn't cause it (the alcoholism), I can't cure it, and I can't control it. Another good slogan is Progress, not Perfection. You might not stop feeling guilty all at once, but I wish you the best on moving towards it one step at a time.
Aloha Manas and welcome to the board...stick around and don't get in a hurry for a solution to "His" problem. It is "His" not yours until and unless you take on the responsibility. You don't lift the bottle to his lips...he does and he knows when he does he has big problems. The Center is knowledgeable and responsible so they have the solutions...How he gets it and when is solely up to him. To him he has no problem and he is blind to the problem that it is causing you. The disease is one sided and unless and until he honestly considers that he needs to do something about the disease you don't have many choices. One choice you have made is to come here which has a wide and deep experience about the disease and what we need to do for ourselves in the meantime while they are begging for mercy...lol Should be a mercy prayer attached to the bottle. Keep coming back and check out the twice daily meeting we have on line also. ((((hugs))))
Welcome to MIP Manas - glad you found us and glad you reached out...
While things differ from location to location and country to country, some things are similar. We are attached to the patient and we tend to manage with our emotions. I have been the parent of two who have been in/out of more than 10 total facilities, and it took me a while to absorb that the patient wants what they want when they want it and the facility was able to manage with facts and knowledge way greater than mine.
My AH demanded a couple 'early releases' for my sons and it was not advised and was not in their best interest. He had that guilt you speak of - I was kind of numb at the time, but my thoughts were negated.....
I learned to respond kindly with, "We will continue to follow the advice of the staff, and when they believe discharge is the best next step, I will be here." --- my goal at the time was to not be 'in charge' of the decisions/discharge. This gave me the peace of mind to say what I mean, mean what I say and know my truth - I'm not in charge and I'm doing the best I can based on what I know....
Take this time to work on you through Al-Anon - my best suggestion. Take care of you, and be gentle with you. He's not where he is because you put him there - he's there because he's got a disease, and it's progressed to the point that this is the necessary treatment. Al-Anon taught me the three C's - I didn't cause this, I can't control it and I can't cure it.
(((Hugs))) to you - please keep coming back!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I've actually joined an online chat on stepchat (Al Anon chat room), but no one was around (just started chatting, lets see).
OK, here's the biggest problem. Bless the souls in the center (who have actually almost saved my life and given me breath), but there seems to be a vested interest in keeping him there. I get asked about my profession, probes about my possible income (Very indirectly). Something tells me that they look at the money they get too. Thats probably the only big worry now apart from the smaller (grew smaller over time, were BIG) guilt, feeling sorry, and all the other usual thoughts about the A.
Some examples:
*How can I see my loved one in the same building (but different floors) as mentally challenged (bless their innocent souls), with random shrieks that shake me up when I visit once in 15 days.
*He craved for small things like a Pizza, snacks, biscuits, with which he used to literally bathe while at home. (I take food stuff along with me now, they check and let them have it)
*He's not allowed to move out of a couple of rooms. No open space. They have nice windows, fresh air, but not much to move .. only about 2-3 small rooms. 5 people bedroom. There are others in 15-20 bed dorm too.
What convinces me though are these things:
*I can't trust him yet. Until the main Psychiatrist doctor tells me he is on the real recovery path (minus that bit of vested interested in keeping him there)
*He should be responsible for himself from now, but I'll never stop supporting in a non-codependent type relationship (thats after I recover fully!)
You can also chat at any time in the room here. There are people randomly in there from time-to-time. I see there is at least one person in there right now.
When my wife was in inpatient recovery, I was generally able to tell when she get serious about her recovery. She was in twice, and both times I could tell marked differences after a little while, more so the second time. Not being pissed off for being in a center, but being grateful that she was in process of being rescued from addiction. A general sense of calmness and centeredness, as opposed to the random hyperactivity and chaos of drunkenness. The first time they suggested she go to a halfway house before returning home, but she talked me out of it, saying that the best medicine for her would be to see our 11 year old son. She tried recovery when she got out, went to lots of AA meetings, but had problems finding a sponsor, eventually relapsed and got two DUIs.
After being in jail for a few days for her second DUI, I got her remanded to rehab, and she decided to get serious, or she knew she wouldn't freely ever see her now 13 year-old son again. So she did, and the changes in her were dramatic, and more far-reaching. So this has been a journey for us.
Keep coming back here and sharing the journey with us. It does us all good!
Just noticed that I missed "months". So when we put the A in the center, they say 2-3 months. Now they say (again, it appears they try to probe to see if I'll react) 8 months or more. That sounds like way too much. The A was going out of control "only" for about 4-5 months at age 28, but drinking from 10 years.
Only in quotes because it was not a long time by his standards and by my adjusted standards. Of course, it was way beyond my original standards, which was quite a peaceful, normal, active sports life.
Sorry, so the main question I am asking is.. how do I reach a good state of mind where I am convinced that the 8 months or so they say is really for his recovery and not for the earning for the center. They clearly seem to have some vested interest. So, should I simply trust them 100%? My A says that they don't care for them too much and sweet talk to visiting relatives (again, I don't trust the A's words totally for obvious reasons)
Please note I have nothing but utter gratitude, respect, etc for the center, its main doctor and most of the staff (although some are a bit on the slightly rougher side, not voilent. They are recovering addicts who are doing service)
Reaching that good state of mind is a process. For me to get to a clear head after my wife being in rehab two times, I had to go through a couple of months of recovery myself, reading literature, going to al anon meetings, and coming here. That is how I got to a state of mind where I started trusting my own judgments again. And feeling better about how much I could trusty my AW and how much I could trust anyone really.
Wow Kenny! Those are truly useful words. Thanks. And thanks to MisMeliss, Iamhere, Freetime, JerryF. I am using a couple of Al Anon tools. One day at a time, higher power, and keeping focus on myself. These are working wonders from the last week after 6 weeks of worrying. I haddown days right after I meet him on the visiting day for 3-4 days. I hope it will be better this time. Feb 11-12, 13? Not sure about the exact date yet.
Can anyone share on how I can cope with the pressure of his request to take him out of the center? I have said No to very few things when he was out. I still cannot face that pressure well. Fortunately, he scampers off with the eatables that I take for him. He is so deprived that he is eager to eat and share with this new friends in the room. Even this makes me a bit sad!
The thing is that if he doesn't want to recover, it doesn't matter whether he spends one week or eight months in there - he will start drinking again as soon as he is out.
Occasionally people go into treatment reluctantly and they decide they want to recover once they're in there. From what I've read, that's not the norm - usually to stay in recovery they have to have a little bit of desire to do that. But sometimes they do have a turnaround inside.
Will your man have a turnaround? It's impossible to say. It's a gamble. It doesn't sound as if he's had one yet. He's basically in prison with no access to alcohol, in effect, so far.
I guess for me, part of it would depend on how readily the money is available. If I had lots of money to pay this place, I would study the situation very carefully. If I were spending my last penny and making myself poor and endangering my future to pay for it - I don't see the evidence that it's going to be worth that.
Pinkchip/Mark could probably say something about this, as he works in the industry.
The other question is your recovery. Because alcohol sucks everyone into the insanity and we need our own recovery too. When you get some recovery of your own, the other questions will become clearer. Are there any Al-Anon meetings near you? If not, there are online meetings on this site. I hope you will take good care of yourself.
We are all in the process of recovering from the insanity of the disease of alcoholism and our relationship to it. I have learned that when my spouse is in an active phase of his disease - his words do not line up correctly with his actions. His disease causes him to say things that aren't necessarily true, but were what I wanted or needed to hear. His disease was always seeking out the status quo, it needed me to comfort him and enable him to continue marching on in his life unchecked. When I decided not to participate in those conversations and instead focus on his actions and the advice of the health care professionals and experts- everything changed.
During this time I would try to focus on just this one day. I would not let my mind wander to tomorrow or next week or eight months from now. I would work very hard and focusing on what I need to do to take care of myself this one day. I would be mindful of my surroundings, my breathing, my thoughts and my feelings. Then I would ask for insight from a power higher than myself to direct my next steps for just that day and that moment. As I learned to be quiet and not make any big decisions about the future - things began to fall into place.
It takes practice and patience and meetings. It also takes time. Support from others who have gone on this journey far longer than I have has been invaluable and healing for me as well. There are people here who have been in recovery for many many years. I've learned to do more listening because ultimately it's their wisdom that has helped me find my own.
I'm glad you're here and I'm glad that your loved one is getting good care. Caring for yourself is wonderful medicine. Keep coming back.
Okay...back again and was thinking about you while at work and the trauma the disease is putting your thru. Jenny shares great experiences with you which most all of us have participated in. Learning how to live one day/minute/hour at a time is powerful recovery behavior for me cause getting caught up in past and future with my alcoholic/addict wife was a loser for me. They and their disease are masters of deception and the con and until I learned how to live in the moment I usually got myself had by my beautiful cunning and powerful addicted wife. Bah!! I learned to hate the feeling of loosing and then had to learn better to just let go of trying to win. Winning doesn't feel great when I'm sick. Pink Chip is currently (I believe) practicing as a substance abuse professional and I hope he jumps in to help you here. I am also a former therapist and spouse of and child of the disease and like some others here I am also a sober member of AA and Al-Anon. You are in great company who loves to share their ESH with others in need.
Al-Anon has tons of literature available to you check out their web site and see what is available. Usually you can find it at face to face meetings too. In regard to your post look up the "Just For Today" pamphlet which for me is a gem and so powerful in my own recovery. If you cannot find it let me know by PM here and I can help. Keep coming back. ((((hugs))))
Just to add I learned to respond to my alcoholic/Addict when she had questions about bargaining in the recovery process, "I don't know about that...you need to talk with your case workers". She came to hate that statement and then left me alone instead of trying to manipulate me.
-- Edited by Jerry F on Friday 5th of February 2016 05:03:34 PM
This rings a warning bell for me. Is the man an involuntary patient? So he can't leave if he decides to? Why is this your decision to make? I'd be extremely wary of any disease treatment center that doesn't have a treatment plan timeframe. Ie a 28 day program. Or a 60 day programme. To just draw it out does run two dangers in my mind: firstly the cost and secondly given that its a mental health institute the possibility he could be placed as in indefinite mental health patient. In the countries i have lived in, institutions receive funding for mental health and it can be lucrative. It may be different in India, I don't know. But a vague timeframe sounds off to me. For me, your question is not a relationship question about giving chances so much as it is one of human rights. He is an alcoholic. The choice to change that is his and his alone. If he wants out I don't see what right you have to take that choice away from him. You do have the right to say he won't be living with you if he chooses to discharge. And a whole heap of other healthy boundaries which don't cross the line into control. I am of the firm beleif that recovery must be a choice of the individual if it is to be successful. Until that happens, if it ever does, we must accept things as they are......he's going to drink, what am I going to do? It is hard. But it works.
Thanks a4l. You are providing a v different perspective and I respect it.
Yes, I agree on the rights part, the freedom to choose part.
I am planning to ask them for a firm plan soon (in a week). In all probability, I will try to get him out in less than a month's time. Here, we need to give a solid reason why I want him out and I have at least one. His Inguinal hernia.
Yes, I agree. If he comes out and relapses, he has to be on his own, but for several reasons, its a bit different. One, he has not earned a penny from outside for about 2.5 years now. I used to pay him for his work before he went in.
One thing is for sure, I will never let them place him in the mental facility, not even close. Yes, I do suspect that they get funding for the mental health part. The more patients, the better it probably is.
Again, disclaimer. The Center has done a lot for him and me over the last 7 weeks. But now, I need to really think. And also look after my safety. He will cause a lot of trouble almost for sure, but I will be ready with some Al Anon arsenal, even though I am a newbie. I know it will not be enough, but I dont know if i have too many choices.
Manas You have received many constructive thought, provoking responses to your questions . I just wanted to add that alcoholism is a chronic, progressive, fatal disease that can be arrested but never cured. Denial of the severity of the disease causes both the alcoholic and their family to negate the severity of the symptoms and believe that a cure has been received.
This young man has never earned any money except for the money you give him for jobs, he has no track record of employment, or dedication to recovery. I do not know the treatment plan that the institution suggests, but if it is work, study program it would be well worth his invested time and energy. Remember they are the experts how do you know he does not need to be placed in a mental facility and if you "take him out" you will feel responsible for him when and if he relapses-- what options do you then have. I would consider my own well being first and pray about the decision.
My son was in recovery for many years when he relapsed -- I begged the mental institutions to admit him to no avail (I would have paid for the treatment) instead he died from the disease shortly thereafter. Consider your response with much meditation and prayer.
hotrod, amazing words of wisdom and from pure being the situation that I am currently in!
I am always debating in my mind as to what the best course of action to take. The staff there (definitely not 100% experts), feel that my A will need be in and out of therapy 3-4 times at least before he learns. We had an Al Anon member visit and share informally about her A son. She said that that they put their son in the center. They took him out in 2-3 months, he relapsed. They put him in again. They did this 3-4 times. Now, the staff at the center used to poke a bit of fun at him like "oh so what did you do this time?". Eventually , it started getting embarrassing for the A and he got better. Thats a miracle example for me, but I really doubt if it will work exactly that way with my A. He has much more to deal with.
Yes, I am scared to get him out, thinking about the harm he will do to himself and me. The only pressure that I am unable to bear is the time when we meet once in 15 days and he tries to force me to promise to get him out in 10 days, 15 days and so on. Of course, one way is to think about the million times he broke his promises (but was it him or the dissease?).
You are under no obligation to make any promise of any kind to him at this time. While that may feel very uncomfortable to you (you state that you have said no to very few things) , it is a new behaviour it does get easier with practice. I know that I too was initially uncomfortable when had to set my boundaries and decide for me and my life what I needed and wanted not necessarily what the alcoholic wants. Sometimes saying no is the kindest thing you can do for someone. No one knows what the future holds. Although the centre does not have a definite time frame for length of stay that in itself is not necessarily bad. Again you get to decide how long you can afford it and what is best for you. Unless they can keep him there against his will somehow he can do as he pleases at the age of 28. That is hard to accept as we all want to help our alcoholic. My time is better spent helping myself to detach with love, continuing to be supportive in a way that works for me but not rescuing.
Mattie, I don't know if there is an accurate answer. They make him sign some documents early when he is "admitted". But yes, he definitely wants to come out of the center.
serenity47, money is not the problem currently. Fees for the center are 20% of what I bring home as salary and I have more than enough left for my own needs. It pinches a bit, but compared to the pain of dealing with the A, it is does not pinch at all.
When I was a therapist in a rehab they ALLLLLL wanted to leave in a hurry. The rehab cuts into their drinking and using time and supports their parents and family...soooo bad. As a parent you will do what you have to do and can select the consequences before you make the choice....In other words choose the consequence you want and then the behavior that you need to act out. Good luck and glad you're hanging in there. (((hugs)))
Thanks Jerry F. I can't tell you how much you guys are helping a newbie at Al Anon.
Thanks for all the hugs. Hugs to you too.
Yes, I can see roughly what I'll have to face once he's out.
*No job, so I have bear all his expenses.
*If he comes out at this stage, it is clear, and the therapists told me that there are excellent chances of relapse. This time, I obviously will not be enabling (because I'm understanding what enabling now). So, he might resort to other means to use.
*I won't say they are taking great care of him like his family or I used to (enabling codepenents giving in to his demands), but they definitely do have a lot of good things. AA inside, tools for As, meetings, decent food (which he doesnt like much), the best room possible (I put him in a room with 5 instead of a dorm), inspirational videos, movies once a week, etc. Doctor is contemplating taking him to open AA meetings outside to find a sponsor but is worried that he might run away. They said that they'll think about giving him responsibility of looking after 4-5 mentally challenged people.
*I'm beginning to realize that I will have to bear the pain of keeping him inside because its best for him and me. I just need to use the Al Anon tools to cope. I'm using HP, one day at a time, focus on myself intermittently. It is definitely working and I am humming songs :) these days!
((Manas)) I loved reading that you are using your alanon tools and are"Humming songs" these days. Quite different from living in anxiety, fear and sadness.
Keep up the good work,trust the process and know that you are not alone.
Good progress manas. It is never easy to watch our loved ones struggle, but in my experience ultimately it was when I allowed my AD to struggle is when she began to grow and accept responsibility for herself. Take care.
these days. Quite different from living in anxiety, fear and sadness.