The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Hi everyone. I have been reading a lot about codependency and I think I got a little feisty and after an argument with my ah (that is not living with us since July and having to learn my job from him) I sent him an email saying what my boundaries where when he came over. Which was when he comes over to help me with something (move furniture, read daughter a story) he can't complain or be in a bad mood and I told him it makes me feel guilty and wish I never asked him when he does which is all the time. I wrote to him that he never lets me tell him how I feel and when I try we end up fighting bc he thinks I am yelling or nagging him. He refuses to acknowledge how he treated us and even though he isn't drinking he has narcissistic tendencies. What is the difference bt controlling someone and setting boundaries for yourself bc when he does certain things it makes me feel depressed, guilty, belittled u know the normal feelings and normal verbal abuse. Can anyone tell me how they set boundaries? The email went really bad he basically insulted me and said I always tell or nah him. Honestly I don't even know why I care.. I want him to go away but I think my codepency is making me feel guilty for what I wrote. I have text him and then erased it- thinking what am I doing he doesn't listening to u, it is always about him and what he is going thru, he belittled u, is always tired and in a bad mood and left me in a important meeting and was rude when he showed up at the end and said he was done helping me and then asked out boss if he could move on to his other projects now. He is maybe 30 days dry this time. So did I stick up for myself with a boundaries or did I do a codependent control thing?
Help angel anytime we blame another for our feelings we are giving them power of over us. Alanon tools and principles urge us to take responsibility for ourselves, our feelings, reactions and pain . When we do this, we are able to process the event, look for our hidden motives, our part in the dispute and then respond in a healthy fashion .
We are powerless over others no matter how hard we try to make them behave as we would like. Telling them how to act, speak, feel is control.
Keeping the focus on ourselves and our needs, we can state when we need and will do to accomplish this:"I need peace and calm in the house. I will treat you will courtesy and respect at all times and if you need to fight or argue, i will not participate but will leave or ask you to leave. That is a boundary. Most important to remember is to keep the focus on yourself and attend many meetings.
I set boundaries during an argument by saying things like "You might be right" or "I will think about that and get back to you". No blame no shame no getting defensive and justifying myself.
Also I reflect back on what I can and cannot control. I cannot control his mood. I can't tell him how to feel because he gets defensive. So instead I either ignore the behavior
EG: ( he's stomping around the kitchen after work and shutting the cupboards a little too loud b/c clearly he can't understand why he has to cook his own meals now) because he will remedy the issue in his own time and my job is to focus on myself. OR if he comments (which when AH is active in disease rarely happens ) with something like "I'm too tired to cook dinner! Why can't you just do it for me?!" I then say what I mean, mean what I say - but don't say it mean. "Remember that on Thursday nights I now meet with my book club. It's one of the ways I'm taking care of myself. I would be happy to write it down on the calendar for you if that helps you plan you meals on those nights."
Hepangel, boundaries are not requests for help or to ask someone to hear your complaints. Boundaries are your personal line in the sand, that you draw whereby you will not let someone cross, if it means that that person is hurting, manipulating or controlling you. When they do hurt you, you would calmly say this is unacceptable and remove yourself from the area and discuss it at a more appropriate time, when you and they are not angry.
__________________
"Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it
does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown
For me, it works better if I figure out what my boundaries are going to be, silently to myself, then acting on them when the time comes, without explaining any of them. When dealing with a narcissist or very manipulative and fearful person, this would mean not showing up for every argument that he picks with me. This may involve having an escape plan in place to physically remove myself from his presence, or simply saying that I do not want to talk about x,y,z at that moment, and just generally honoring the fact that I literally do not have to say a word to him about anything at all that I don't want to. It also means understanding that I am not obliged to have any conversation with anybody that I don't want to and that I am well within my rights to refuse to engage in an argument or debate. This also means that if he insists on continuing, that this is not nice or reasonable behavior and it'd be reasonable of me to do what it took to not be around that behavior any more.
This way, I'm really only controlling myself, not him. He still is in charge of himself and can choose to act like a narcissistic pain in the neck, or like a reasonable person.
Hi Help; Betty and Ledfoot (and Debb and Fog, I was distracted while trying to post) shared some great reminders about AlAnon's recommendation to focus on ourselves rather than others. I find that anytime I am confused or sensing an increase in anxiety, I am likely trying to handle things my 'old' way, without the wisdom and guidance of the program.
There are some great pages on Boundaries in Courage to Change (C2C) and Hope for Today (HfT). HfT p. 311 notes that some new members are confused when trying to reconcile the concepts of not accepting unacceptable behavior from others, while at the same time being powerless over others.
The passage states simply that boundaries are not rules that I enforce on others. They are limits on what I will or will not tolerate, based on my own values and needs. It is my responsibility to do what I need to do to ensure that I do not remain subject to unacceptable behavior.
The reading makes a pretty strong statement about my own responsibility to safeguard my boundaries, stating that if I allow my boundaries to be violated repeatedly, I am a volunteer more than victim.
C2C p. 345 Reminds me that announcing my boundaries to others isn't important, knowing my limits are and acting to safeguard them is. Knowing my boundaries doesn't mean trying to make others respect and observe them, but taking care of myself by respecting the limits I've set for myself.
These pages help keep my mind clear on this topic, and as AlAnon always does, places the responsibility and power to change on me. It is only when I am trying to use old, ineffective tools like controlling others that I lose my serenity. I haven't found an area of struggle that isn't covered in C2C, ODAT, or HfT in a straightforward, 60-second read.
Reading these daily has made an incredible difference in my life as I regularly replace my old perspectives with new, healthy, and effective ones. I am so grateful for the wisdom of AlAnon
-- Edited by Enigmatic on Thursday 10th of September 2015 08:43:42 PM
__________________
Paul
"...when we try to control others, we lose the ability to manage our own lives." - Paths to Recovery
I guess I am a little surprised what a boundary is. In this case I guess I Was wrong. I have told him time and time again about his bad mood and how it affects me and how he just has to tell me and not come over. Yet he still comes over and is still in a bad mood. I get so frustrated with him that I try and stay calm with him but when he repeatedly talks about himself or when I tell him how I feel and he twist it how in the heck do u stay calm all the time when they insult u, press your buttons and the whole time u can't defend yourself but in a nice way to set a boundary u know they will not follow. I guess I am so mad at myself right now bc I am the one who messed up. I feel terrible :(
Helpangel, please do not feel terrible!! Al-anon is a learning process that takes all of us some time to grasp! It is so good that you come here to talk, because that is how we all learn. Boundaries are your unspoken limits, the worst thing you can do, for you, is argue with the alcoholic. Detach from his moods, your focus is always to be on yourself and your peace and serenity. The last thing you want to do is have conversations with your 'A' that you know will end up in arguments. Keep it simply when you are in his company, so as to avoid the constant chaos/drama.
__________________
"Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it
does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown
Thank you. I guess i still get confused because he says he wants to take my daughter to tutoring and he is at the house and I say well if u don't mind can I hop in the shower and u he can start the bed story and I will finish it and he just goes off in front of my daughter and I. I can walk away but how do u walk away and then have your daughter walk away when he is acting inappropriate? She has even told me that he is in a bad mood and I say I know honey go upstairs take your shower and watch Netflix while we get the rest of the furniture moved. I try and shelter her as much as I can but she knows he is tired and moody a lot. He hasn't changed at all since I kicked him out in fact I think he likes it because he doesn't have to help unless he wants to. It gave him even more control in a way. I get abandoned to take care of everything he gets therapy and a room with no responsibilities but can act like he is helping me out when he comes to the house. He even wants constant praise for doing it! I am so confused about boundaries..
Helpangel, the best way to deal with him is to not ask for anything. Focus on yourself
and your daughter and lower your expectations of the alcoholic. Don't ask and don't
expect anything, because he is not capable due to his disease. It has nothing to do
with you, you did not cause, nor can you cure or control the disease. Detach with
understanding that he is the way he is because he is an alcoholic. He is controlling
you if you continue to allow him to upset and bother you. That is what Al-anon is
for to help you understand and see how to stop the vicious cycle of hurting, blaming,
controlling, manipulatiing, etc. Al-anon tools, prayers, slogans, meditations, traditions
and concepts are what will save your sanity, help you to focus on yourself and daughter
and put the alcoholic in your life in proper perspective.
__________________
"Forgiveness doesn't excuse bad behavior, but it
does prevent bad behavior from destroying your heart". ~ unknown
When I first heard the saying "We teach people how to treat us" I was angry and resentful. I never asked to be treated badly! But gradually I came to understand how that was true. If someone treats me badly, I may say that I resent it, but he is not just listening to what I say, he's watching what I do. So if I keep inviting him over, then what I'm really saying is "However badly you treat me, I'm actually okay with it, because I'd prefer it to you not coming over any more." So, naturally, they keep treating us badly. Because there's very little down side in it, and they keep getting the opportunity.
And sometimes, maybe often, nothing we say will stop them doing it. Then we have to decide: would we rather the situation continues, or would we rather have less of them in our lives? Because often that's the reality of the choices. There's nothing that says we have to continue to have bad treatment in our lives. The power to choose otherwise is always within our control.
Remember that you didn't do it "wrong." You just didn't do it effectively first time out of the gate. Who does? But the fact that the A gets mad does not make it "wrong" at all. Getting mad is their attempt to control us. They want us to bend over backward to keep from making them mad, so they'll get their own way. Often their own way is treating us badly. So in effect they're saying, "If you don't let me treat you badly, I'll get really mad and cause a fuss! So there! Take that!"
But again, we're under no obligation not to make them mad. If they're going to behave badly just because reasonable boundaries have been set, it's on them. And they can go do it somewhere else on their own time.
Wow, thanks for this ( again! ). This is such a foundational concept that we need to gently work out in our own lives. Enig, Debb, Matti CTF and HelpA all contribute real life issues, the confusion that can ensue without tools ( and subsequently ) how to master them with this program, practice and time.
HelpAngel - I agree that now is not the time to feel bad! Now is only the time to see that the focus is external and forever on him rather than on you and what your needs are.
Your happiness (once all of ours too) is held hostage to what he does or does not do.... or say.....or follow through with..... or ........because of this terrible disease.
We perceive abandonment rather than our freedom and room to breath. We wrestle with resentment over the scores we keep ( what I do / did vs. HIM ) rather than sinking deep into that feeling of gratefulness that comes with freedom, choice, space and a HP to guide our next steps.
We are so lucky that we have our own program and can work on ourselves to carefully peel those layers back and find our serenity once again. Perhaps for the first time.
OMG that makes perfect sense to me. Thank you everyone for responding. I feel like the murky water just got a lot clearer for me. Awesome responses I have already re-read them and feel so much better. Thank u and God bless each and everyone of us! I hope everyone has an awesome weekend :)!
Thanks for posting your thoughts, Helpangel, because in trying to reply to you I had to examine just what it was I was doing and why! It's so easy to get sucked back into the codependent way of thinking. It's one of those ongoing learning curves and (for me, at least) is going to be something I will constantly work at the rest of my life, but it does get progressively better.
i am so grateful for this board. To see such similar stories every day after so many years of isolation and confusion is just so so helpful and the wisdom and care in so many of your responses is truly amazing. I really needed this thread today, as i do so many, and I've saved the link and will reread your tips and tricks as I try to strengthen my own muscle with the help of the al anon tools. Thank you all.
Helpangel, so glad you are here :) I needed this thread today also. I actually feel like I have some clarity now about boundaries! Thank you everyone who posted or responded!
