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I was wondering what you all even define as normal drinking? I can tell you that my definition changed throught my drinking career and then now in my sobriety. When in my active alcoholism, I really thought everyone drank to get drunk. I couldn't fathom or understand any other reason for drinking because that was always my reason. I thought normal drinking meant that you drank whatever and just didn't get lots of duis and didn't have cirrhosis and had a job.
Now, I have some clarity since I am no longer in active alcoholism or living with another alcoholic. After age 25 or so, it's just not normal to get wasted...period. Normal drinkers almost NEVER have more than 3 drinks at a time. I know that our experiences color what we see as "normal" and acceptable. Being in a relationship with a drunk or being raised up in the disease throws our perceptions way, way off. Have any off you felt like what you used to think was "normal" and accept was just so far off? If you have a better idea now, do you have a harder time not calling BS on what is clearly alcoholism? I know a large part of alanon is focus on self and not reacting to others' drinking. But some is also building knowledge of the disease, gaining clarity, and now drawing boundaries around what is alcoholism vs. not so that we don't fall into the same patterns of accepting the disease right back into our lives and then later wondering how it happened.
I didn't grow up in an alcoholic family so I think my view of normal drinking didn't get distorted. I ended up with an alcoholic, I think, only because he was so secretive about his drinking that it took me a long time to cotton on to the fact that that was what was happening. To this day, after endless turmoil, rehab, and several DUIs on his part, I have never seen him actually take a drink of alcohol.
For me, 2-3 drinks would be a reasonable amount for someone to drink, as long as they didn't do that regularly. Maybe 2-3 drinks every other week or so, in the U.S. This would not be true in Britain, where I live some of the time, where normal drinking might be 2-3 drinks several times a week, but only in company, at the pub, etc. Someone drinking on their own would be worrisome to me. Someone being too eager to drink or too focused on drinking would be worrisome to me. I don't think I've ever seen a non-alcoholic drinker get more than a little bit tipsy. I mean, I've seen it on the streets, etc., but not among my friends. I didn't go to a university that had a drinking culture (I went to a small women's college), and I never saw anyone drunk at college.
Nowadays anyone being particularly focused on alcohol sets off alarm bells to me. I don't have anyone like that in my group of friends (apart from my ex, of course), but I see it in my wider group of acquaintances, and I think I'm pretty good at spotting alcoholism now.
A "normal" drinker is someone who drinks when things are good, not when things are bad. When things are bad, they are soberly working to fix them, not getting drunk to escape from them. A normal drinker is almost exclusively a social drinker. A normal drinker sometimes doesn't drink in social situations because they just don't feel like it. A normal drinker stops drinking when they start to feel tipsy and manages to maintain focus on their responsibilities (like making sure there is sufficient time between the last drink and the drive home.)
Of the above, I think number 1 is the most important.
My idea of a normal drinker is similar to what i think is a normal dessert eater (or a sweet any time of the day).
I think most people can take or leave a piece of cake or a cookie or a fruit. They have their favorites. Some sweets would never pass their lips. Some may occasionally pine for Uncle Bob's Famous Independence Day Torte. Normal eaters aren't hosts throughout the day and evening invaded by urges to thinking about sweets or inhaling them. They have partially full bags of cookies on the high cupboard, ignored for 6 weeks or so. When they eat sweets, they taste the flavor. They admire the texture. There is no race to stuff it in until they're oblivious.
To me, normal drinkers have bottles in their cupboards that were partially drunk. Not until a special occasion do they open them again. They don't chug or desperately chase stupor. They are sated by one or two (or a few) drinks. They set limits and stick to them, even if they do this naturally.
I have no clue why some are normal and some are uncontrolled. The why no longer interests me, because i've wasted too much chasing it.
Interesting question. Forces some thought. To me, I think normal drinking is drinking without the sole purpose of getting drunk or drinking to escape reality, whatever the person's reality is at the moment.
A glass of wine or craft beer with dinner once in a while because you like the taste and it pairs well with your food - normal.
A couple of cocktails while out with friends - normal.
Even a glass of wine while soaking in a bubble bath to relax alone - normal.
But when it gets to the point of not being able to or wanting to stop at one, when nights out with friends always end in drunkeness, or drinking alone is a frequent occurrence, when someone uses ANY reason as a reason to drink, that's when I think it's a problem.
When we were first dating (before I knew - or he even knew - he was an alcoholic) my husband and I often drank together. But of course, we were doing things like going out to dinner, to trivia nights, to concerts, etc, where drinking was not out of the ordinary. As we settled into the relationship and event dates became less frequent, I naturally began to drink less, since I don't really see a reason to drink at home. My AH did not stop drinking less and often became irritated when I didn't want to drink with him. "Why can't you just loosen up and relax? I just want you to have fun!" were things he would utter pretty often. Telling him I could do those things without drinking just didn't compute with him. I noticed he started to use any excuse drink. "I'm celebrating, I had a long day, I'm frustrated because I didn't get much done today, I'm bored, I always have beer with pizza, I always have beer with steak..." Etc. And, when I'd suggest drinking a little less, he'd say "But what is the point of having just one?" Those were the things to me that were red flags of an abnormal relationship with alcohol.
I like what Jill says and think I would expand it to include ANYTHING we do that becomes an escape from dealing with life on life's terms. Alcohol, shopping, eating, sports, - anything can become our focus. Is shopping a detrimental addiction? Sure it is, if you can't afford it, if you have no place or use for what you've bought. Eating - detrimental if you aren't hungry or don't eat healthful foods, or you eat just because its the only place you get any pleasure in life; sports - I know a guy who has some sports event playing on his tv during every waking hour - doesn't have to deal with his family or problems that way and he has no clue how to carry on a conversation that isn't about sports! I think you're a normal ________ (whatever) as long as it isn't a way for you to not have to face regular everyday life.
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I am strong in the broken places. ~ Unknown
All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another! ~ Anatole France
I really don't know. If a person consumes and is not altered ala jeckyll and Hyde, when SOBER as well as after drinking, id say they are not problem drinkers. My European friends drop in to see each other and drink wine as a part of conversation,sometimes during the day. The alcohol however is not the main point, or at least it doesn't seem to be, not like down under, where the drinking seems to be the whole social focus not the people around you.
A social/normal drinker doesn't need to have a drink to have fun.
A social/normal drinker doesn't have a drink if they are driving.
A social/normal drinker doesn't consider time between drinks, quantity, etc. Only problem drinkers are concerned about getting caught and ramifications.
A social/normal drinker has never had a black-out or did once in college and realized that was bad/scary and never did it again.
A social/normal drinker isn't focused on what, when, where, why, how to get, drink, buy, store, etc. alcohol.
A social/normal drinker may or may not have alcohol in their home and doesn't worry about if they have it or not for guests.
pinkchip - it took me about 10 years of being sober to actual people watch in a social setting (without my family that over-indulge). I watched some who ordered a drink when we arrived, and nursed the same damn drink for multiple hours. It got watered down with ice, and they didn't matter - they did it to fit in and be a part of. I never drank like that - never, ever, ever.
I still play recreational softball and play with 'normal people'. Like you, I always assumed folks drank like I did. Nobody I am around and consider a social drinker drinks like I did. If there are 10 of us at softball, 1 or 2 may have a beer/two. Now, there are teams where they are more drinkers, and I believe their commonality is the booze. That's how I used to play....As I've changed, I've attracted different types of people (thank God!)...
So - normal people don't think about it, don't dwell on it, don't give it time in a day, don't count, don't obsess, etc. Having a drink or not is a choice - like above - like having desert or not or ice cream with their cake. Watching healthy people around alcohol and seeing them indulge or not was a game-changer for me with regards to the disease concept. It was mind-boggling to me when I realized that others could take it or leave it - for days, weeks, months, years, etc. They also can leave part of a drink - I never left part of a drink - EVER....that was so unacceptable to me - down to the last drop!!!
Great thread and great discussion - thanks for the topic!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I consider myself a normal drinker. I love a good craft beer, but in my older age it's definitely about the quality and not quantity. Now that my ex and I are separated I can buy a six pack of the good stuff without it vanishing. Barring any people stopping over, a six pack will last me about 2-3 weeks. I like to have a beer with dinner once in a while, but now that I think about it I haven't had beer in the fridge in months. This past Friday I had 2 beers at a company meeting and then 2 more at the following happy hour. That's about as much as I drink in an evening, and I do happy hour about once a month. On a special occasion I might still get toasty....New Year's Eve, friend's bachelor party, etc.
Pinkchip wrote - 'When in my active alcoholism, I really thought everyone drank to get drunk.'
For me it is only in the last ten years that I have come to realise that some people might deliberately choose to get drunk - before then I always thought that someone who had had a few too many was just having some fun and overdoing it and that they would regret it when the hangover arrived. It never occurred to me that they were trying to block stuff out of their life.
Having lived with an alcoholic for a while I must admit that I am now less tolerant of people being drunk and I can easily see alcoholism in places where it might not even be, so I try to stay aware but non-judgemental and keep an open mind about who that person is rather than projecting my own experiences onto their life. Doesn't always work as well as I would like though!!
I agree with what others have said here about what 'normal' drinking is, and particularly like Almostthere's first point. Great question.
An alcoholic always SAYS they are "going to have a few", but I can honestly say that there was NEVER any intention to have "a few" and it was always drinking for a state of drunkenness / oblivion. I drank when happy or sad...whatever...even when physically sick. In college, I was proud of how much I could drink. That stopped being something I was proud of in my later 20s, and by then, it took so much liquor to get me drunk that the reverse was true and I was ashamed of the quantity and quality of what I actually drank to achieve that effect.
When thinking of a definition, I go back to what I have seen in my home. Of course this in only my take on my situations with friends and family. An alcoholic drinks, until the bottle is empty or they pass out. Occasionally after passing out they return to finish the bottle. There are rarely left overs. An alcoholic never considers they have had too much to drink. They rarely consider they are too drunk to drive. They take defense if someone infers that they may have had too much to drink. As the disease progresses, they go from a happy drunk to a not-so-nice drunk. They no longer require or insist on company to enjoy their drinking. Their bodies are starting to break down, but there is always another reason besides alcohol for the failings. They find friends who drink to excess, they find doctors who "don't ask, don't tell". Their world gets very, very small.
I realized after posting this, that I turned the question around to what is an alcoholic, not what is normal drinking! I guess I would say normal drinking is drinking without the intent of getting snockered. Drinking occassionally to enjoy the quality of the beverage, the company you are with , for celebration, in moderation with no ill effects to anyone or anything. And definitely responsible about driving.
-- Edited by Bethany66 on Monday 3rd of August 2015 12:40:11 PM
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Bethany
"Folks are usually about as happy as they make their minds up to be." Abe Lincoln
But when it gets to the point of not being able to or wanting to stop at one, when nights out with friends always end in drunkeness, or drinking alone is a frequent occurrence, when someone uses ANY reason as a reason to drink, that's when I think it's a problem.
When we were first dating (before I knew - or he even knew - he was an alcoholic) my husband and I often drank together. But of course, we were doing things like going out to dinner, to trivia nights, to concerts, etc, where drinking was not out of the ordinary. As we settled into the relationship and event dates became less frequent, I naturally began to drink less, since I don't really see a reason to drink at home. My AH did not stop drinking less and often became irritated when I didn't want to drink with him. "Why can't you just loosen up and relax? I just want you to have fun!" were things he would utter pretty often. Telling him I could do those things without drinking just didn't compute with him. I noticed he started to use any excuse drink. "I'm celebrating, I had a long day, I'm frustrated because I didn't get much done today, I'm bored, I always have beer with pizza, I always have beer with steak..." Etc. And, when I'd suggest drinking a little less, he'd say "But what is the point of having just one?" Those were the things to me that were red flags of an abnormal relationship with alcohol.
Wow, I could have written this exact thing. Very much aligned with what I witnessed with my AH.
Green Eyes, I am sorry you had the same experience! It was kind of tough when it progressed that way because it seems like it evolved slowly enough that I didn't realize how much of a problem it was until it was "too late" so to speak.
Green Eyes, I am sorry you had the same experience! It was kind of tough when it progressed that way because it seems like it evolved slowly enough that I didn't realize how much of a problem it was until it was "too late" so to speak.
And I chose to leave before it was too late for me, since he said he didn't have a problem- he said I did. I got better. He died from the effects of his drinking a year and a half after I left him.
thank you very much for your insight on this. I often thought that it took me a little extra time to see my exAs drinking as alcoholic drinking because we met while in college and many people are age were drinking to excess, for what that's worth. But what you wrote about drinking to get wasted after age 25 resonated with me- by that age we were married and I was about to have our first child and I started to notice the drinking in a new way.
having grown up in an alcoholic home I also did not question that people would drink to get drunk- I never understood that there were people that would have a couple of drinks and that was the end of it. One of my friends once told me she had a two drink limit. I thought/. Wow! How simple! I never knew anyone that drank like that?!
so... Although I am not an alcoholic I choose not to drink at all because I prefer life that way and to be honest, I haven't had much experience with 'normal' drinking.
Over the last fifteen years, I have also become an observer of drinking behavior. What would be called normal drinking fifteen years ago would be to drink on the weekend and perhaps have wine with dinner when you went out. Now almost everyone I know uses alcohol to unwind at the end of a day or to ease a crisis or to be sociable and they drink probably every day of the week. They consider that normal. Most of them do not get drunk but few seem to realize that they simply cannot drink as much as they did when they were younger as they do not metabolize it as well. Their capacity for alcohol has become limited but they still think they are ok with drinking a few beers or glasses of wine. And so they do slur their words and act 'stupid' IMHO. But interestingly enough, they do not consider themselves to be in a drunken state. And they happily drive off without worrying about getting stopped.
I know I don't understand this. I have never wanted to lose control of my actions or what I say- kind of a control freak in that area. And to me the problems are still there when you stop drinking and you are poorer.
One of the things that becomes apparent when trying to identify "normal" is that the definition ranges widely depending on individual perspective and experience. Factors such as genetic makeup and background can influence our view of "normal" and make it challenging to arrive at a definition that everyone agrees on. Beyond the challenge of defining "normal" lies the potential complication of what is "healthy" or "acceptable".
This reminds me of the strength and wisdom of AlAnon. Our unity comes from the fact that we are affected by the drinking of someone we know, regardless of where that drinking falls along the normalcy spectrum. AlAnon helps us even when we are affected by someone who no longer drinks at all, yet exhibits behavior that affects us adversely.
Fortunately, we do not have to make the (sometimes) difficult determination of whether someone else is drinking too much, or more than "normal". We only have to know how we feel about it. Knowing how someone else's drinking affects us is all we need to know to take action to ensure our safety, state of mind, and serenity. This simplicity allows us to keep the focus on ourselves, where it's easier to manage and most beneficial.
Very grateful...
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Paul
"...when we try to control others, we lose the ability to manage our own lives." - Paths to Recovery
Its a good question. I dont have a 'normal' view of drinking to be honest. It was never modelled to me as a child and when i hear of people talking about having wine after work or out getting drunk then I am ften suspicious, like, are they alcoholics or on their way? This summer I have drank alcohol quite regularly, on holiday i had a drink with my dinner every night. I must admit i did think, maybe im an alcoholic. I dont have a 'normal' view of it. I dont really know what normal drinking is for others or myself to be honest. Im wary with alcohol and people drinking.
For the record I think it's completely okay to have one or two drinks during a long dinner out and then still drive home. Keeping track of how many drinks you have over a certain time period isn't necessarily the sign of an alcoholic. In fact I think it shows an awareness of how alcohol is metabolized and a level of consciousness absent in many of the problem drinkers I've met throughout my life.
The difference between my ex and I was that when I say 1 or 2 drinks I mean exactly that. She would try to say that she does the same thing, but would gulp down 3 glasses of wine over a 30 minute lunch and declare it the same thing as 2 beers during a 2 hour dinner. It's not.
My AH would drink two 32-ounce steins of beer and say to me, "What's the problem? I only had two drinks..." as he slurred his response to me when I would ask him how much he had to drink- when he got home from his "office" (aka: the bar he owned).
Once I joined Al-Anon, I learned to stop asking and to keep on my "side of the fence," otherwise known as "Un-Crazytown."
-- Edited by Green Eyes on Wednesday 5th of August 2015 03:32:57 PM
-- Edited by Green Eyes on Wednesday 5th of August 2015 03:34:04 PM
