Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

almostThere · Senior Member

RE: Who invented this term and where can I find them?

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

I LOL'd at the Jumbo Shrimp vs. Functional Alcoholic.....that's a great one!!

I have had exposure to 11 different addiction treatment centers, 4 mental health/dual diagnosis centers + more than 35 addiction counselors in the last 10 years.

In all of 'this', never have I heard anyone use the term 'functional alcoholic' towards a person.

It is actually a sub-type of alcoholics as defined by the NIAAA in 2007.

There is a bunch of details and characteristics that are included in these sub-types, all of which doesn't matter to me but figured I would share....

This term is not used as a label, it's used as a classification much as Type 1 vs. Type 2 Diabetes, etc.

WE (the people) have taken the term and used it out of context.

Thanks MaryJane for the jumbo shrimp....I will chuckle at that for a long while - so true!!

Mark17 · Veteran Member

I'll start by saying it's not a given that alcoholism is a disease. There
is widespread debate on this subject. El-cee, you said the reason I
feel this way may have to do with anger, hurt, resentment, bitterness.
It might. Same goes for many people who say alcoholism is not a
disease. Alternatively, it may not be a disease!

I'm pretty sure the Big Book (I read it once) describes alcoholism as
a disease. If that's an inextricable part of Al-Anon then I need to
better understand why. I feel I've taken many useful things away
from my limited time involved with Al-Anon but alcoholism being
a disease is not one of them. I'm also not convinced it needs to
be seen that way.

Iamhere--I do not think all alcoholics are bad people. I would
never generalize. Maybe bad people don't even exist. Maybe
we're just all different.

A this point in my life, I believe bad people exist and what is bad is
culture specific.

I believe my XAW is a bad person because at the end of the day,
after all we had been through when her alcoholism was well out
into the open despite all her attempts to deny it and be secretive
and/or manipulative about it, she _still_ attempted to deny it
while dogmatically insisting she was in recovery (and then
she officially relapsed one month later).

She could have gone to more meetings, kept up on her
psychiatric appointments (for meds she was taking), done more
readings. No--she was an arrogant individual who felt she
didn't need to work as hard as the rest of us because she knew
how to do things in a "smart" way, which meant improved
efficiency. I think that explanation is as useful as the term
"functional alcoholic."

So don't misunderstand me: I have not made a blanket
generalization to say all alcoholics are bad people. I immensely
respect those who work the program and achieved recovery.
What about relapses? I can respect them as long as they jump
back on-board and continue to work the program. For me
there is also something about the alcoholism affecting their
judgment. I think that's bad and since she's out of my life
now, I will forever believe I pulled away from a bad person
since her decision to take in the divorce settlement what
wasn't rightfully hers was a selfish, denial-based choice.

As I continue to work through this my beliefs may change
but that's where I am right now.

Also, I don't thinking of her as bad means I'm walking
around with lots of stress, anger, and other things that
eat me up inside. I'm not tempted to yell or scream
when I think of her. Neither does my blood boil, does
my heart race, does my tummy ache, do I clinch my
fists, or any other physical mental signs.

This is not to say I don't still have something to get
over. I probably do but I'm not yet clear on what it is.
And there certainly is the grief and sadness over losing
a marriage and a family.

Maryjane--I could _not agree more_ with your second and
third paragraphs!

Mark

almostThere · Senior Member

Mark - I fought the "this is not a disease - it's a behavior" battle for a long time. It's a tough one.

I finally was forced into experiences with other types of addiction - namely opiates/heroin, and saw the parallels between alcoholism and other types of addiction, and that made me re-think.

I also had to recognize my own experiences being addicted to nicotine, and that made me re-think.

Smoking in particular made me filter out a few things because, an addiction to nicotine does not elicit all of the bad behaviors that many other addictions do, so the "bad person" thing wasn't a factor in thinking through this.

My addiction to nicotine took control of my thought patterns regarding the act of smoking.

I knew it was bad for my lungs.
I knew it tasted bad.
I knew it was bad for my skin.
I knew it causes cancer.
I knew it was sucking what little money I had out of my pocket.
I knew it smelled bad.
I knew it was frowned upon socially more and more.
I knew it limited the number of people that might consider me an otherwise intelligent person.
I knew it constricted my veins and caused hardening of the arteries.
I knew it weakened my heart.
I knew I was a slave to it and had to consider it in all facets of my life :
Got smokes?
Got a light?
Can I smoke there?
Does any one else there smoke?
How long am I going to be in this non-smoking environment?
When I escape it, no matter what, I have to smoke.
Better not let those people see me smoke (I'll make an excuse to go out into the freezing rain to get something so I can smoke.)
If I smoke in here and open the windows, how long will it take until you can't tell I smoked in here?
Now, not everyone who tries nicotine becomes an addict. I did. My logic driven rational thinking self gave way to the disease of addiction. I no longer had control over myself when it came to cravings for nicotine. I would justify my need to smoke. I'm young, I'll quit later. When things settle down I'll quit. When I would quit, I could use any bump in life's road to justify needing a cigarette, and it seems my life's road was made from cobblestone.

Objectively, and for people who do not smoke, this is clearly insanity, inanity, stupidity, immaturity, and bad behavior.

But @#^& them. Damn Do-gooder, goody-2-shoes, holier-than-thou pontificating wusses. What right do they have to infringe on my right to smoke if I want to? They're MY LUNGS!

This became a very clear depiction of addiction for me. My chemistry has been altered to be a slave to nicotine because I, unlike some others, have the genetic propensity for this to occur, and to occur very fast, and to take root in a very strong way.

Is it a disease? Define it how you want, but when the body and/or mind exist in a state that is detrimental to continuing health and longevity and changing that state is beyond the control of your intellect and rational, to me, the body or mind has a disease.

Your body creates mutated cells at an alarming rate - cancer - a disease.
Your body does not create insulin and therefore cannot properly regulate glucose - a disease - diabetes.
Your mind invents voices telling you to commit atrocious acts, or produces visions of things or people that are not there - a disease - schizophrenia.
Your mind and body go behind your intellect's back to convince you that it's alright to regularly inhale 4000 toxic burning chemicals that are killing you - a disease - addiction.
Your mind and body go behind your intellect's and moral character's back to make you lie, hide, hurt your loved ones, endanger others on the road, neglect your family, finances, et. al. - a disease - addiction (alcoholism).

That's how I came to terms with it.
My wife isn't a bad person.
She's a sick person.
I've done some pretty rotten things trying to deal with her behavior.
I'm not a bad person.
I'm a sick person - a maniac raging against her alcoholism not realizing that I had as much of a chance of curing that for her as I would if she had cancer.
Why else would I have done these things?

-- Edited by almostThere on Monday 22nd of June 2015 02:39:43 PM

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Flo Aloha...Welcome and keep coming back. You already have some insight to the disease of alcoholism and if in attending meetings and other discussions such as this MIP board your insight and experiences will grow and you will become more helpful to yourself and others. I use to think that my feelings of anger in the disease were default and had to be that way until I kept coming back and got the sponsorship I was blessed to have. My early sponsor taught me that emotions are choices which locked up my awareness brakes. My reactions were predictable from HUH!! to NO WAY!! until that sounded foolish to me. Of course I am responsible for my choices including my feelings and then I came to learn that if the feelings I was having were not the ones I liked or wanted I could change the feeling. It wasn't about the feeling of the subject matter...just the feeling. Yes I was powerless over alcohol and the alcoholic yet I wasn't powerless over feeling happy about all the rest of life which is what I chose to do and still do. My son is out there...drinking and using again after years of abstinence and he blew up his family when leaving to go out there again and we are all powerless over what he did and what he is doing...in fact we don't even comment on it much any more unless the dragon of thoughts and emotions raise it's voice and gets hot. Comment will not change anything what we do is move on to healthier, happier emotions which we are allowed to and desire to feel. Feelings are not facts...they just are....and they just are changeable. Keep coming back. (((((hugs))))) smile

Jerry F · ~*Service Worker*~

Almost there...great response on Experience Strength and Hope...you ended up where I did...She is not a bad person and a very sick one. I came to the same realization about myself much much later and then still arrived at it for the same reasons you have. Smoking addiction!! took me longer and more energy than my drinking addiction and still the program works when you work it. I relate to your share. I'm grateful to have put it behind me also. ((((hugs)))) smile

almostThere · Senior Member

Thanks ((((Jerry)))). Hope you are well.

Just sitting here laughing to myself thinking about giving my A "functional" gifts from here on out :

A watch that has a second hand that keeps time, but the other hands don't move - functional!
One earring - functional!
One shoe - functional!
A jacket with no zipper - functional!
A running car with no transmission - functional!
Glasses with no lenses - functional!
Or maybe I'll take the door knobs off all the doors! Their still functional!
Or the glass out of all the windows! She can still open and close them right? - functional!

I hereby decree all broken things in my house to be functional!

Sorry, just had to find a way to laugh for a minute.

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

Call me devil's advocate but I don't agree. If someone has a terrible illness and they keep functioning and doing the limited best that they can do, I don't see them as a bad person.
I see them as doing the best they can with the resources they have at the time.
I want to murder my ABF for what he has done to my life but really, he's just a guy. Everything has gone so screwy for him that he has ended up in a terrible sad mess. I doubt he feels good about it.
The same applies to my father. That guy got so drunk that he fractured my skull and tried to have sex with me the last time I saw him. That must be agonising for him to remember. Yet he has a job, he's a "functional alcoholic"
I see a "functional alcoholic" as a person who is doing the very best that they can to live with a terrible illness, because they don't know of any better way to live. Just like us. We didn't know of a better way until we did.
I do think "functional alcoholic" is a valid term. It describes a person trying to do the best they can manage under horrific circumstances. It's a person trying their best and not knowing that there is help and a better way,

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

I agree Ms.M.

This certainly has been a very impressive, informative and often entertaining thread -- In order for the Board to remain "Functioning" and focused on recovery, I would like to suggest that using alanon's Principle of""Taking what we like and leave the rest " might work here.

"Leaving the rest" for me, means that I do not argue about something I do not agree with, but move on and not waste my time trying to convince others to agree with me.

I must add I did smile often while reading the shares .

almostThere · Senior Member

I see your point MM, and while my original post, as I stated, was venting, I was definitely trying to focus on the term, not the person. If someone is doing the best they can to function, that's a focus on the person, and they deserve understanding and compassion as you have expressed. I'm thinking about my A, who uses the first part "functional" to mitigate the second part "alcoholic" in order to avoid STEP #1 of recovery, a step which I compassionately want her to take. In that respect it's yet another tool that I wish was unavailable to her.
I see your point - She's functional - that's good! But "I don't need help, I'm functional" makes me compassionately sad for a person I love. So I vent.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

It is a given that it's a disease. There are elements of choice involved in treating that disease though.

I also know there are degrees of alcoholism. There are actual stages. The "functionality" of it...I don't like that term either, but I also know that there are several factors that prolong peoples' alcoholism and keep them out of recovery.

The main obstacles to recovery are youth, health, and wealth. Sometimes a person will be scared by having loss in one of these areas and they will get into recovery. Sometimes, it may take all 3. And then, sometimes they may just keep drinking til death.

Mark17 · Veteran Member

Hey Pinkchip,

Just because something is a "given" to you does not mean it's a given
to someone else or even in general. You may be flat-out wrong.

Be more sensitive with your words next time, please.

Mark

Flower49 · Senior Member

hotrod wrote:
Mark I would like to point out that alcoholism is a fatal disease that can be arrested but never cured There are a few who cannot recover from this disease and die from the terrible effects. The AA Big Book talks about them as being the unfortunate ones. In fact one of the first people to bring the message to Bill W, the founder of AA was Ebby, a recovering alcoholic who then relapsed and died of the disease,
I believe that we must protect ourselves from the damages of this disease and still be able to have compassion and empathy for the alcoholic

I agree that we should protect ourselves from the damages of this disease, but I also believe that when you have the tools such as the Big Book, AA, Counseling, Half way houses 3/4 way houses many stints in rehab, rehabcations 2-3 times a year, you are out of excuses to justify bad behaviors whether sober or active...you have the tools so use them, you have the knowledge so apply it.

I think A's like to pull the compassion and empathy card a whole lot in order to justify bad behaviors, relapses etc. I kind of get to the point of just really not finding compassion and empathy for all the bad behavior that continues on and on whether sober or not, the explaining away behaviors due to disease etc that goes on in AA meetings whether it comes from a newbie or a 30 plus year sober person is annoying. I mean sometimes it's just time to get it together and grow up and be responsible for your actions and yourself without all the crutches and explaining away. Alcoholism is a fatal disease that can be arrested and there is so much support, resources, compassion and empathy at hand, yet sometimes I think it's used to ones own advantage to promote I am sober, yet so sick that I do what I want, when I want as it suites me. In a nutshell, sometimes I have a hard time agreeing with the program because it sometimes comes across to me that a sober A or a using A should be given every pass in life and if you won't do that for them then just split...it conflicts with what our faith (my As and mine) has taught us for the spiritual realm of marriage, there is no free pass for husband or wife...everyone don't jump on me and be mad it's just what I feel.

Flower49 · Senior Member

Mark17 wrote:
Hey Pinkchip,

Just because something is a "given" to you does not mean it's a given
to someone else or even in general. You may be flat-out wrong.

Be more sensitive with your words next time, please.

Mark

I don't think he meant it's given in that context, it means that it is known that Alcoholism is a disease according to the AMA or something along those lines. I don't agree that he was insensitive with words, I think we have to not be so sensitive we take things out of context. I have felt many times very sensitive to words written here to my topics I have started, however I read and re-read the posts so not to be taking things so personally and taking things out of context. Try not to feel upset, this is such a great place for E/S/H

Flower49 · Senior Member

hotrod wrote:
I agree Ms.M.

This certainly has been a very impressive, informative and often entertaining thread -- In order for the Board to remain "Functioning" and focused on recovery, I would like to suggest that using alanon's Principle of""Taking what we like and leave the rest " might work here.

"Leaving the rest" for me, means that I do not argue about something I do not agree with, but move on and not waste my time trying to convince others to agree with me.
I must add I did smile often while reading the shares .

Hello! I struggle quite a bit with something you posted, " I do not argue about something I do not agree with but move on and not waste my time etc." Are we always thought of as argumentative if we choose to present our side of a feeling, thought, opinion, idea? I hear that a lot in Al-anon to just walk away or move on if we don't agree with something, why is that the way it is, I think if others don't know how or why we differ then the world never grows. Confused.

Dave2554 · Veteran Member

almostThere wrote:
"Functional Alcoholic"

My Pastor, himself a recovering A, once quipped to me when I used the term 'Functional Alcoholic' ... "David, unless we're dead, we're ALL functional' ...
I laughed a lot about that ... until I thougth about it, and realized he was completely right and it's an important concept to embrace. The term basically has no real meaning, and therefore serves no purpose for categorizing our addicts. I no longer use the term. From my way of thinking, they're either an alcoholic or they're not.

Dave2554 · Veteran Member

Flower49 wrote:
hotrod wrote:
I agree Ms.M.

This certainly has been a very impressive, informative and often entertaining thread -- In order for the Board to remain "Functioning" and focused on recovery, I would like to suggest that using alanon's Principle of""Taking what we like and leave the rest " might work here.

"Leaving the rest" for me, means that I do not argue about something I do not agree with, but move on and not waste my time trying to convince others to agree with me.
I must add I did smile often while reading the shares .
Hello! I struggle quite a bit with something you posted, " I do not argue about something I do not agree with but move on and not waste my time etc." Are we always thought of as argumentative if we choose to present our side of a feeling, thought, opinion, idea? I hear that a lot in Al-anon to just walk away or move on if we don't agree with something, why is that the way it is, I think if others don't know how or why we differ then the world never grows. Confused.

I struggle with this as well. My sponsor often tells me, when I speak of arguments I have had with others to him, that arguing OFTEN is a means of trying to control. He also will ask me which is more important to me 'To be happy? Or to be right?'. At his urgings I try now to recognize before I engage what my motives are, if the decision being, or about to be, argued about is really my business, and if it truly is important enough to me to risk my serenity over. If I determine that either my motives are selfish, its not my side of the street that is being impacted, and/or I really don't care that much to risk my serenity, I make a conscious decision to maintain my only serenity and simply say to the other 'You might be right!'. If I feel that I still need to confront the issue, I attempt to say what I mean, mean what I say, and not say it mean. There certainly is a time and place for 'arguements' ... I know I have read in AlAnon Literature somewhere that they can be healthy ... a way of clearing the air ... or as you suggest ... growing together. It's more in my mind, what you argue about and how you argue that has the biggest impact on how it all turns out.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Dave -

You make a great point - it's about what is it worth to you? If you are passionate about a subject, an event, a position, etc. by all means - argue away. The reality is that you are always welcome to have an opposing opinion. Just understand the person you are engaged with may also be equally passionate about their side. I don't consider healthy debates arguments, and enjoy them and learn quite a bit often about another's point of view.

I opted before Betty posted to step away from this thread. I have experience on both sides of this table and tried to share my ESH from both sides. I has compassion for both sides of the table and did not want to debate feelings and/or opinions. Disagreeing over facts is helpful and leads to understanding and growth. Disagreeing about feelings/opinions is just a waste of my time.

For all here (I think all of us) who've been hurt deeply by Alcoholism and/or an A, my heart goes out to us. In my program to sit and dwell on all 'they did to me' stunts my program. You are entitled to hold on to all that as long as you wish - that's what the program is about - individual recovery. For those of us who tried to share, explain and move the thread along, it's because we genuinely care about recovery...

I do not see pinkchip's comment as insensitive either. I agree that it is a given as that is what we have been taught in the program as well as by society. The choice is about recovery or not. The choice is about when to recover or not. Until you've been in the shoes of an A and understand the compulsion to drink/use, what is the point of continuing to discuss/judge/blame?

Both sides of the table have fellowship & meetings. Both sides of the tables have steps, slogans & recovery when one is WILLING. I do not excuse bad behavior from my A(s) nor do I accept it. Al-Anon teaches us how to use the tools to live our lives and do so peacefully and happily. We always have choices if we can't accept our A(s) as they are. We are gifted with so many rewards from this program, why dwell on what the A did/does/will do?

If Alcoholism were so easy to treat and recover from, we wouldn't be here together. If you attend a meeting(s) where you're not comfortable with the discussion/behavior, go to a different meeting. I am a proud member of multiple fellowships in my area, and I can say that every meeting I attend is a gift to me full of humble, spiritual recovering Alcoholics. I choose to hang with the winners.

That same practice suggested by my sponsor applies to my local Al-Anon family. The first group I went to felt sick and ended up was. The second group I tried is lovely and became my home group. Your recovery is your choice just as the A(s) recovery is their choice. And, lastly we all have the choice to stay sick and not recover/move forward at all.

Alcoholics are sick people. Al-Anons are sick people. I feel parts of this thread are trying to suggest we are less sick than they. Which to me seems very counter-productive to what both programs are about. I can't speak for anybody but me, but I will again suggest this thread is far from one of my favorites...

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

The sentiment: Alcoholics are bad people and it's a choice made by weak minded evil people. As an addictions counselor and recovering alcoholic, I'd say you should choose your words more carefully and be more sensitive. It is a wretched disease that I had, that I work hard to treat still, that runs in my family and has wreaked havok. Not just bad people with weak morals. Having lived with it, been in relationships with other alcoholics, having family with the disease, and being formally educated about it...I don't believe perpetuating what I know to be myth regarding addiction helps anyone. Sorry you are angry at your ex wife. I would be too. I validate all of that. I hate alcoholism. I also think most of the excuses folks give to avoid recovery are lame, but I get that it is a vile sickness and I know it from living it. Viewing it as a disease isn't a cop out for the alcoholic. Try not to get hung up on that. Just my take.

Dave2554 · Veteran Member

There have been a number of critical turning points in my own recovery, but one of the most profound happened very early when I attended some programming for the Family members of patients at the inpatient facility my AW was admitted to. Just the night before I had raged to my brother on the phone about something my AW had said to me about not being angry with her ... rather I should be angry with the disease. I had many of the same feelings of anger, resentment, and I too saw the whole 'blame the disease' as a cop out from taking responsibility. And then they brought in an Alcoholic who was in recovery to share his story with the family members attending. His story rocked me to my core. Telling his story about how exhausting the disease had become for him ... having to go to a different liquor store every day to be sure he was never seen in the same one twice in one week. Remembering all of his hiding spots for his bottles so the family wouldn't find them. Every garbage day collecting the empty bottles from all over his property and ensuring that they properly distributed among multiple bags of garbage so the garbage wouldn't hear them banging together. And finally, in the months before he finally found recovery, waking up in the middle of the night with the shakes and having to drink half a bottle of vodka so he could get back to sleep. It suddenly dawned on me that only a disease could drive that kind of behavior. That's not a choice. My mind immedietely raced back to my wife ... and that she must have been going through that I never saw, or simply ignored and chalked up to some defect of character ... and for the first time ever, had empathy. Once I had that, I had a foundation for forgiveness. And from there being able to let go of much of my anger, resentment, and my victim status became so much easier. Don't get me wrong ... I still have my moments of anger ... and I can build a resentment with the best of them ... but I have tools for dealing with them now I never had before. It's one piece of many ... but being able to detach the person from the disease ... is critical in my opinion for our own recoverys.

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Flower -In answer to your question regarding the " take what you like and leave the rest " principle of alanon. It is my understanding that this principle is suggested to cover the program tools and princiiples and certainly Not intended as a general rule for interacting with the world.

We are free to use all the alanon tools or pick and and chose which one will work for us.

If we do not agree with a tool that is fine ---we just ask that you do not engage in placing " Doubt" about it so that others, who find it helpful, feel as if they need to defend their choices and be diverted from their primary aim of recovery.

The many post to this thread is indicative of this. aww Compared to the number who post to the daily readings.

If there is an issue regarding a group business format this can be addressed in group business meetings

-

almostThere · Senior Member

I've started some great threads on this board! THIS ISN'T ONE OF THEM. Sorry guys!

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene