The material presented
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I haven't been to a face to face meeting yet, but plan to, and actually have a friend who offered to go with me which is awesome. I am so far at the end of my rope with my husband's drinking that I'm barely holding on, and am literally dreaming of the new life I may make for myself and our children (although in my dreams he is still always there, as he always will be being the father of our children, unless the disease finally kills him). We've been together 10 years, and from nearly the beginning I knew his drinking was more than just a "problem," but I was young and naive and thought he surely wasn't that bad. He's started and stopped AA more times than I can count over these 10 years (he hates AA with a fiery passion). He has been to rehab once, about 5 years ago and managed 2 years of sobriety after that. His family and I talked him into going back to rehab last summer, however, he'd hurt his hand and they made him to go the er first. After a short hospital stay where they treated his detox, he decided not to go back to the rehab facility. These last 2 years it's been on again off again with his drinking. At first he'd probably relapse every other month or so, and then every couple weeks (and now it's ongoing). He's been successful in weaning himself off the alcohol, little by little, which I know is a very difficult and dangerous thing to do. When he stops drinking he gets all the worst symptoms, and so many times I've been about to pick up the phone and call 911, but he won't "let me," and always he's been fine, through his weaning process. I am thinking at this moment, it has maybe finally gotten to the point where it's beyond his bit of control he's managed to have. I feel like I have seen it all, know exactly when he is drinking, I know almost the first moment he takes a drink, I know all his tells, and yet ... I still doubt myself and think I'm crazy and reading into things, and want so badly to take his word for something, that I will overlook major signs and look for other explanations. For example, he came into the house this afternoon, after having a cigarette. He is so unsteady on his feet, kinda shuffling through the kitchen towards me. His face is hanging in a strange position, the exact strange position he gets after he's been drinking. He walks past me towards the stairs, to go lay down. I ask if he's been drinking, and he swears up and down he hasn't been. His speech does not seem slurred. He claims he has not had a drink in 2 days. And I start questioning MYSELF instead of him. I google "do alcoholics still appear drunk when detoxing" and get pretty much zero results. Can that really be a thing? He claims this detox is just particularly hard; he's having such a hard time getting back to his normal self; he smells like alcohol because it's still being processed by his body. Or is he really bold face lying to me about this? I assume he's really lying. I've told him I would stay and support him if he is willing to do the hard work (he's started seeing a therapist, which is a huge step for him) and if he would just be OPEN with me about it. To please tell me if he went to buy a case of beer, if he "found" some stray cans in the garage, if I smell it on him to just OWN UP TO IT instead of making me feel like I'm some kind of horrible crazy person. All he would have to do is say "Yes, I've been drinking, I'm finding this to be extremely hard," and my heart opens up. Knowing he's lying about it, and expecting my sympathy because he "doesn't feel good" for some "unknown" reason makes me seethe with anger. I don't want to seethe. I am really missing the man I fell in love with, who I decided to make a family with, but he hasn't been around for a very long time. I'm unsure of how long I should wait for him to return, or if I should cut my losses.
I have been with my wife for eight years, now. She has been sober for 6 months of that time and has been through rehab twice (each after a OWI) in our relationship. She doesn't lie about her drinking until the point that she is actually drunk, unreasonable, shouldn't be driving. If she has only had a beer or two, she will admit it. I have found myself being picked up from work, thinking she was a bit off,asking her if she had been drinking, getting a vehement "No, you make me feel like Sh§$ when you don't trust me. Why can't you just give me credit for doing the right thing?" getting in the car with her, only to start screaming at her to pull over immediately and let me drive, which sometimes she did, and sometimes she didn't. She doesn't work, so the days she stays home, I would come home to find her.... off, a bit. I would ask her is she had been drinking, and I would get an angry reply, similar to when she would pick me up from work. I would back down, go take care of the dogs, and come back upstairs to find her passed out or discover an overdraft to the account. She promised that she wouldn't drive once her license was suspended, but made such a big deal about me not leaving the keys home, I disabled the truck and found out that she was trying to drive it to the bar while I was at work. (How else would she know that it didn't start?)
This used to make me crazy. (And, unlike you, I was NOT going to be understanding if she had been drinking while I was at work.) Then, someone asked me why I was asking her. If she is acting as if she is drunk, if I am certain that she is drunk, why do I need her to tell me that she is? This just caused a big fight between us each and every time, and left me feeling betrayed, exhausted, angry, worthless, etc. Since then, I have decided that if she is acting as if she is drunk, if I believe that she is drunk, that she probably is drunk. There. I have my answer. She decided to drink (like last night when she managed to get some money from her mom at the baby shower and came home with a liter of vodka and a flask of Rumpelmintz.) Now, I get to decide what I am going to do. I cannot control her or her drinking, but I can control how I respond to it and what I do with my day/evening/morning.
I really understand what you are saying about loving a person who hasn't been around in a very long time. For me, it is especially hard when I see a glimmer of that person, only to have the addict take over again a few minutes later.
I hope you keep coming back. AlAnon has been a huge help to me, and I hope that you will find the same to be true for you.
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Skorpi
If you are depressed, you are living in the past. If you are anxious, you are living in the future. If you are at peace, you are living in the present. - Lao Tzu
I applaud you for finding and planning to attend the F2F meeting(s). Between those, here and a sponsor, I've made peace with a bunch of my thinking/hoping with regards to addiction.
This is a disease, and it's cunning, baffling, powerful and progressive. It sucks the life and pleasure out of those with it and those who love. Getting support in Alanon will help you make choices that you can live with and thrive - no matter what others are doing.
I always have to remind myself that this disease affects every aspect of life - spiritual, mental, physical. We didn't cause it, we can't cure it and we can't control it. All we can really do is work on ourselves and find peace and serenity - however possible.
Keep coming back and do what you can for you today - easy - - take a walk, read a book - focus on being gentle with yourself and let us know how the meeting goes!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Thanks to both of you. Skorpi, I've fleetingly had the same thoughts, "If she is acting as if she is drunk, if I am certain that she is drunk, why do I need her to tell me that she is?" But I always let that other part of my brain take over and I ask questions and start fights. I feel like it's a part of me that thinks "if he does it X many times, than I'm leaving him." I agree, though, when I've finally accepted that he's in a relapse, and before he's told me the truth, I do feel more at peace about it, and just go about my day. I'm so concerned with finding "the line," that will help me make the decision to finally leave, that I'm helping make us all miserable. Although I have several friends to talk to about this (and a couple who have left alcoholic spouses and encourage me to make that decision when the time is right), it's really good to talk to people who are going through similar things, and are still in it. <3
So glad that you are reaching out to Alanon. I experienced many of the feelings you are describing before I found Alanon. I had worn myself out with the monitoring, lecturing, pleading, and devastating hurt from being lied to.
Alanon helped me see that Alcoholism is truly a disease, a cunning, progressive and devastating disease. I also learned to accept the 3 C's of Alanon, posted on the main page of Miracles in Progress: I didn't Cause it, I cannot Cure it, and I certainly cannot Control it. Trying to do so, as I had been, resulted in my own life becoming unmanageable.
Alanon helped me realize that Alcoholic behavior often makes no sense, cannot be understood, and can endanger our own well being if try to "fix" it ourselves. I am so grateful for the wisdom I found in the program, and so glad you are seeking it out. Keep coming back!
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Paul
"...when we try to control others, we lose the ability to manage our own lives." - Paths to Recovery
In the short time that I've been working on this, I've noticed that if I keep the focus on me, I have more control over how she is allowed to see me. She doesn't get as many opportunities to distort the truth of what is happening. In the moment, it keeps things more calm. It also appears to give her the opportunity to evaluate her own behavior, because the next day she does not have a new list of things to be angry at me for and there is no carry over from the previous night. The only negative actions were hers. Although I hold out little hope for her, I can see that exhibiting self control may be the one thing that has a chance of getting through to her. Ultimately, it's about me though. I feel stronger. I have more self-worth. I'm more grounded.
I find myself questioning my actions over the last two weeks which is the main reason I am here. My AH says he has been sober for 16 days, although he cannot "remember" when he last had a drink. There have been times, most recently yesterday afternoon, when I can swear he has been drinking. He stumbles, he gets repetative with his questions and actions. When I ask if he had and struggles with drinking today (because he was around drinkers), his reply was "nope, we all opted for water because it was so hot out".
I cannot tell you if your husband is lying, but I also wish they would just admit to drinking if they had. I too would accept that he was steuggling and move on. To me, the lying is worse than the actual relapse because it shows they are not willing to admit to the struggle yet are willing to risk losing others trust.
I hope you get the oopportunity to join a face to face group soon!
Great post about the cunning, powerful and baffling nature of alcoholism and how we are addicted to focusing on it/them and wanting to understand that we are sane and normal...we aren't because our entire attention is owned by the disease. We cannot self focus because our peace of mind and serenity is reliant upon being right and we crave having them tell us the truth when we don't know what the truth is or trust that we are being treated with honesty. It drove me crazy until I got into the rooms of the Al-Anon Family Groups and followed directions; Listen with an open mind, Listen for the similarities and not the difference between why I though I was different than the other members, practice the behaviors of those who were serene and sane because they knew how they got that way; ask for help on changing my thoughts, feeling, spirit (intentions) and behaviors; get a power greater than myself to turn my life over to when trying to control myself turned out sickly insane. If I didn't learn how the progressiveness of the disease would continue to take me down and make me progressively worse as time went on. I got myself to the condition that I could not and would not trust my own thinking and feelings and so used the thinking and feelings of the groups and my sponsor. Please keep coming back Insanity is optional. (((hugs)))
Early Bird, I could have nearly written your post. My AH has been to 4 AA meetings and claims he is sober, but when I ask him how many days, he does not know.
I do not believe him. That seems odd that an A does not know exactly how many days it has been. (It is about 2 weeks, since he started attending the meetings).
And there have been a few times I have heard him slurring, after he told me he was going to go get some smokes. I believe he bought a couple of those teeny tiny little shot size bottles to take the edge off of his craving.
The lying is the worst part, but it is nothing new here. He has lied to me about drinking from the gate. Now I just expect it. The trust ship sailed years ago.
The only way I can kinda sorta understand not knowing the exact day is because he has his days and nights so fully mixed up, and if he had something in the middle of the night (the last beer he is admitting to, about 3 days ago) it would be hard to say if that was the old day or the new day. I guess. I counted up that he's been drinking/hiding it/trying to quit for the last 10 weeks (with all the years of relapsing, sobriety, relapsing, sobriety before that). During that 10 weeks he's had two therapy appointments, in which he's neglected to tell the therapist he is still actively drinking. The lying is absolutely the worst part. Our 4 year old keeps trying to tell me that "daddy is doing nothing wrong" when she sees that I am upset with him, because she doesn't understand what is happening. It is normal to her for him to be absent, and to only "visit" with us when he is feeling up to it. I just can't believe that the "coming down" part of it is lasting 3-4 days now. In the past whenever he gets to the "end" of the weaning down process, it's probably about a day or so before he seems sorta back to normal. I'm sure it gets harder and harder every time, and maybe he really is just having a very hard time this time, but after being lied to for so many years I can't take his word for it any more. I'm trying really hard not to get angry about it today, and we're having an ok day.
(((HUG))) The people who are really good at this, would say that they use "detachment", Miss Mona. I am very new at this, so I am struggling to detach.
They concentrate on the good stuff. I hope your day is better than okay.
I don't know if someone posted this to you yet, but there is the old joke: how do you tell if an addict/alcoholic is lying? His lips are moving.
I am just finding out in the wake of my AW leaving me just how many things she lied about. It is truly dizzying. And if you are a "sane" rational person you think "Why on earth would someone lie about THAT???" Because they will lie about big things, tiny things, and everything in between. There are so many times my ex tried to convince me I was crazy -- she didn't "remember" what she said during her rages, I was paranoid, my deepest beliefs about my own personality were wrong, etc. It's the nature of the disease. I have found that it is when I start second guessing or "trying to figure out reality" that I am in over my head. For example, one is never puzzled or feels crazy when they go shopping, bring the ingredients home, and make dinner. Life with an alcoholic can make the smallest, seemingly simple things so convoluted you start to lose your footing unless you learn the tools that people here and at F2F meetings have learned. I am starting to learn them, too. Trusting myself more, detaching, seeing my value as a person, really understanding I don't deserve to be lied to, yelled at, or abused.
I'm glad you're here. This prograam and these people literally saved my life. We are all surrounding you with care as you find your way. Hugs...
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Peace comes from within. Do not seek it from without. Buddha
People in Al-Anon basically told me many times, "If he's not working recovery, and working it seriously and visibly and determinedly, you can assume he's drinking." I've found that's absolutely true. It's like asking someone wearing a big red shirt and a big red hat, "Are you wearing red? Are you sure you're wearing red? Why don't you have a sign saying 'I'm wearing red'? Are you sure that's red?" They might have a blinking red sign above their head saying "WEARING RED" and I'd still be asking.
I think one reason I had a hard time accepting it was that I kept thinking Can this really be happening to me? It was so outrageous and insane that it just felt unreal.
Another reason was that if it was really happening, I felt as if I should make a decision, and I was unsure and stalled and fearful about making the right decision. Easier to get stuck on the "Is it really happening?" phase.
What I came to see was that unless he was longterm in a longterm recovery program, it was really happening.
I feel like despite everything he's been through he still thinks he has control over it. If he has a "slip up" all he has to do is spend 2, 3, 4 + weeks s-l-o-w-l-y stepping down from the crazy amount of beer that is his normal. When he goes through his cycle of addiction, I go through my cycle, too: The "I think he's drinking but I can't prove it" crazy stage; the "I can finally prove it and I'm mad as hell" stage;" the "I don't really care any more, I'm going to go about my life as normal" stage; and the "Ok, he's no longer drinking, now I have to somehow leave all my anger behind and be in this relationship again" stage. Once I do get to that detachment part, I'm fine there. But when he gets sober, he doesn't seem to understand that I have massive amounts of healing to do myself, and am not always ready to just jump in with both feet, and "reattach."
Anyway. I'm glad to be here. Thank you everyone, for your responses. <3
I get that. My wife said this morning that she wants to be sober, but she needs a drink this morning to get over her hangover. I said that was her choice, but she is not to use any money I earn to purchase alcohol (which, in effect, means she gets the money from her mom, sells something, or doesn't drink), and I suggested that she just rip the bandaid off and stop instead of coming down slowly. If she wants to stop, she has got to stop someday. (OK, I am not doing very well at not suggesting what she should do, but I am getting better at not expecting her to follow my suggestions, lol!)
I also feel the stages of suspicion, anger, indifference, and guilt for not being able to pick up where we left off when she is finally doing the right thing. (She pointed out to me that - aside from the drinking - she has done all the rights things for three whole days now, so why am I not being super affectionate and grateful? All the right things include doing her own laundry and helping to clean the house.)
I give myself permission to be indecisive, to take my time in figuring things out. I give myself permission to not be over the hurt in three days. (After all, it took us over 8 years to get to this stage.) Most importantly for me, I give myself permission to not make a decision about staying or leaving until I am ready. Someone suggested that, if there is no threat of physical violence, to give my program 6 months to a year before making a decision to leave. I thought that to be odd at the time, but it gave me the freedom to work my program without worrying about the leaving aspect of things. I might leave, I was REALLY sure I wanted to leave on Friday. I was less sure Sunday mid-day, positive again Sunday morning, back and forth. I give myself the permission to just focus on myself and my program & recovery, and let the staying or leaving in the future take care of itself when the time is right. For now, I am living one day at a time, and today, I will be working and then taking my car to get an engine code checked. Depending on the code, I will either be getting a new sparkplug or getting a new sparkplug and a new wire.
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Skorpi
If you are depressed, you are living in the past. If you are anxious, you are living in the future. If you are at peace, you are living in the present. - Lao Tzu
((((Skorpi)))) the permissions ...of course!!! For me as recovery tools go..."the permissions" were huge and my then sponsor spent all the time he could in teaching me and mentoring them. You state your personal control over them and I also remember how I did it to be very similar. The permissions also allowed me to stay in the moment and open minded with proper priorities. Mahalo for the ESH...I hope others get it too.
You sure are in the Right Place, a Place Of Learned how to Live "Happy Joyous & FREE" Weather Our Alcoholic is Drinking Or NOT :)
I First have to Admit that I too an a Recovering Alcoholic, (4+yrs sober) So I Get the Pleasure of Seeing Both Sides to the Stone of Addiction... At Least Mine and those around me, I have Alcoholics on ALL Sides/Branches of My Family tree, so I get to PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE my Program DAILY... What a Blessing it has Been... What I have Learned about My Alcoholics is that the More I ASK? The More they LIE... and the LESS I ASK, The MORE they Expect Me too... When I Finally got to the Point where I Just QUIT... It Changed Many things for Me & For Them... I Refused to Engage in ANY Conversation with ANYONE I 'Think' is Under the Influence of Anything (A lot of My Family also has Pill Addictions too) and because of that ONE Basic "Boundary" I Can Find Peace with Myself... And Detach with Love...
I Even Had Family that Will Try to Bait me to Fight with them, when they are Under the Influence Because they are so Use to the Fighting, anger, and Ill Feelings, they want me to live there too, So its Justified for them.. I found this Group of Peeps in 2008, and I have to say, they have Helped me Grow So Much from where I Was when I got here which was Very Close to Needing a Straight Jacket and a Rubber Room... :/ This Program Gives You what You Take From It... When I Got Here I didn't want to hear what Worked for Others, I just wanted someone to tell Me How to FIX My Alcoholics... but they Gave Me So Much More....
When I Realized that the Feelings I was Having... 98% of them was Self Inflicted... YES My A's where Driving me Crazy, and Making Me Unsure of Myself, but the Reality of it was I was Allowing it to happen, I was Willing to Take on "Their STUFF" in order for me to THINK I was "Controlling" Something that Couldn't be Controlled... That's the Great thing about this Program, it Teaches us HOW to LOVE US... Regardless of what our A's do... Or Don't Do....
I know First hand what it is like to be the CHILD of a An Alcoholic Father... I Remember My Parents Fighting ALL the Time, Screaming, Yelling, Tip Toeing around everything they said, and Worrying about what MOOD I would be faced to Live with THIS Day... When you Mentioned your 4yr old it Reminded me Quickly just How SOON I took this Disease on Myself for the Sake of My Parents... No one Told Me it wasn't My Fault that My Parents Fought so I Assumed it was ALL my Fault, and that's a Hard Load to Carry at that Young of Age or Even as an Adult... My Mom Left My Dad when I was Just Shy of 10yrs old, I Still to this Day Remember the Fighting, Screaming and Craziness of that Home, and it Haunts Me to this Day...
I'm So Grateful I got into this Program, and I'm not ALL Healed, but It did make me take a Long Hard Look at Myself, and See where My Craziness was indeed a Factor in the Crazy around Me... I Was Just as Sick as them, because I Believed I Knew ALL the Answers they didn't... My Wake up Call Came, and I'm So Grateful because My Life Might Not be Perfect But... I'm Sober, I'm Still Working on Me, I Still Love ALL my Addicts, I just Now Know when to "Vote with my Feet" and Leave the Room, instead of Stay and Entangle in the Mess of Alcoholism....
Please Take what you Like and Leave the Rest... And YES... Find those F2F Meetings, and Allow yourself Time to Heal... Cause you are Worth it :)
