Do I confront him on ths or will it do me no good? - Al-Anon Family Group

Mapper · Veteran Member

RE: Do I confront him on ths or will it do me no good?

hotrod · ~*Service Worker*~

Hello I had a great day and then share about your own day and what you experienced.

Mapper · Veteran Member

So no sarcasm, no anger about why he's home? Just brush it under the rug like all is normal?

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

Is there something you feel you might say that will make some kind of difference?
What kind of effect are you wishing these words to have?
What result are you looking for?
Do you think there are any words you can say to him that will cause him to change or suddenly see everything your way?

I think what everyone here is trying to share with you is, what we have all learned (the hard way) is that there isn't. There are no magic words. You might as well walk in the door and recite the alphabet to him for all the difference it will make to what he thinks says or does. It won't make a difference. Yell at him. Be sarcastic. Give him a lecture on how to roast a chicken. It really doesn't matter.

The change needs to start with you and in you.

Jen61 · ~*Service Worker*~

Good one Melly. You are spot on.

Mapper · Veteran Member

missmeliss wrote:
Is there something you feel you might say that will make some kind of difference?
What kind of effect are you wishing these words to have?
What result are you looking for?
Do you think there are any words you can say to him that will cause him to change or suddenly see everything your way?

I think what everyone here is trying to share with you is, what we have all learned (the hard way) is that there isn't. There are no magic words. You might as well walk in the door and recite the alphabet to him for all the difference it will make to what he thinks says or does. It won't make a difference. Yell at him. Be sarcastic. Give him a lecture on how to roast a chicken. It really doesn't matter.

The change needs to start with you and in you.

No you are correct. Nothing I say to him is going to change anything. If I do ask what is going on it will just precipitate more lies like I'm sure he'll tell me a counselor appt came up and 3PM was the only time she could see him, or he wanted to spend the day downloading and filling out applications for other jobs. Because I saw his Leave Without Pay paperwork and he can officially be away until April 27. So I'm sure he'll be out all next week as well. I feel like just telling him to quit his job so I won't have to stress every day.

But for me it's the worst when he knowingly is deceitful. Like he took his backpack and wore his work pants yesterday when he was supposedly at work and then comes walking through the door with, what I still don't know he was trying to convey to me. He just sort of mumbled something and it was like he didn't just want to stand around so he left for a while but he made it sound like he stopped into work and then left and then went and picked up his guitar and then got some dinner and then came home. At least try and have a better, more believable story for me!

-- Edited by Mapper on Thursday 16th of April 2015 05:49:31 PM

-- Edited by Mapper on Thursday 16th of April 2015 06:02:48 PM

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

I feel like I know him better than I know you. I wonder if you feel that way too? I did with my A, I was so consumed with him and everything he did said and thought that I literally had no idea what I myself thought or cared about anymore.

I understand why you feel so stuck and angry and I will try to impart one more thing to you because it was a really cool and important understanding that I came to.

From what you describe, your partner is spending a lot of time and effort deceiving you, giving you the run around and generally manipulating you. This probably works very well for him because you are obsessed with trying to understand and fix his behaviour. As a result, he is more concerned with "managing you" than he is with his actual life and the things he ought care about. Giving you the run around and trying to manage and manipulate you is HEAPS easier than actually dealing with his issues and his own lack of participation in life. YOU are providing him with the ultimate distraction; as long as you allow him to use deceiving you and placating you as his focus, you are assisting him in continuing to do the very same thing day after day after day.
The result is BOTH of you are giving all of your attention to his lies and manipulations and silly excuses and general nonsense. It is the equivalent of two grownups angrily riding a see-saw against each other in a playground all day every day.

Consider a different scenario. Consider you stop right now and accept that he might never, ever change and you take steps to protect and improve your own life and stop caring what he does or doesn't do. It's not EASY but it is possible if you stop focusing on him and start focusing on you.

What will he worry about if you are no longer interested in his daily routine of lies and nonsense? What will he do if you just get off the see-saw and start living your life? I guarantee that is much more likely to give him the "wake up call" you are hoping for than if you just keep trying to think of ways to bounce him off the seesaw.

-- Edited by missmeliss on Thursday 16th of April 2015 08:16:43 PM

LedfootJenny · Senior Member

I was on the merry go round once... constantly apologizing, analyzing and using "logic" to dig deeper and try to understand, communicate, provide clarity, and on and on and around I went.

I stopped when someone said: "How do you KNOW when your AH is lying?" I paused in deep thought, the gears turning, looking for a pattern to his deceit. Then they said "His lips are moving".

The joke was on me.

This disease is one of the brain - it lacks logic, it lacks understanding, it's only pursuit is MORE! More booze, more weed, more more more!

So I opened the door to new life after I realized all my sacrifice had brought nothing but more lies - as he was capable of nothing beyond this with addiction his constant companion, lover and friend.

Breakingfree · ~*Service Worker*~

The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over again and expecting different results. Reading suggested books, getting to meetings and making changes that you can control is what made my life different and much better. I fought it and complained and wanted the magic cure, but doing the work of the al-anon program is the magic cure and you are so very worth it! Take care of you!

ladybugnessa · Senior Member

I think you will find that the lies will stop when you stop asking questions to things you already know the answer to.

I think the lies will stop when he starts to realize that your focus is now on YOU and not on him.

I think that if the LIES are what bother you, then just assume he's not at work and don't ask.

It's a very very VERY hard concept to grasp. It's hard to believe that once we start taking care of ourselves then the rest starts to fall into place.

It makes no sense to us. We think that what we say and do can impact on them. We think we have power. We have none over anyone but ourselves.

So it would go like this:

He comes home all prepared to lie to you when you say "how was work" or "did you go to work?"

instead you say "hi honey, I had a lovely day how was yours?"

he says "blah blah blah"

you say "that's nice what do you want for dinner"

he: speechless... he didn't get yelled at...

then you make dinner and do not mention it or work again

make the assumption he is not gong to work.

Mapper · Veteran Member

I checked my phone at a stoplight on the way home last night and saw I had a voice mail. Sure enough it was H calling me and telling me, about 30 minutes before I got home, that he was sorry, but he left the house with the intention of going to work but got there and sat in the parking lot and couldn't go in so he went and filled out an application at a motorcycle store instead and was now home. He said that he "didn't want me to be surprised" when I came home and found him there. Why would I be surprised?? It's the new status quo. I'd be surprised if you weren't there! I walk in the door and he comes to greet me very tentatively. I act all chipper and say hi. I go to kiss him and he pulls away and goes jokingly "You aren't going to hit me are you?" I say no and kiss him and go on my merry way. The last thing I was was merry but I put on a good show of it. He certainly won't be going in today as it's Friday.

ladybugnessa · Senior Member

AWESOME Mapper! it's after noon and my AH is still sleeping. I've been at work (from home) since 6 am

He told you in advance and you handled it perfectly!

I hope today is peaceful for you.

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

But you did make one small change, and it will have a ripple effect if you let it. Well done, keep it up

it is an act at first but after a while it isnt an act anymore. It just comes naturally.
Hugs.

Mapper · Veteran Member

Now what do I do when he lays it on me at some point in the next week or two that he has an interview for a job at one of these very low paying/no benefit jobs he applied to? How can I support that when I know it will not help our monetary situation at all and just push him/us further into debt? No matter what I say to him about how it's a bad decision he'll come up with some reasoning as to why it's the best thing ever. I can't change his mind.

-- Edited by Mapper on Friday 17th of April 2015 11:24:29 AM

ladybugnessa · Senior Member

I have to be honest if I could afford for my husband to stay home and not work I would let him in a heart beat. I find him less stressed when he has a job he likes. Perhaps he knows that part of the issue for him is his job and he's trying to figure out how to reduce his stress.

You smile and you say "do what you need to do and I'll do what i need to do"

then you get your name off of the things you don't want to be responsible for (sell the bike it's YOURS not his)

and let him fail on his own. HIS choices are NOT your responsibility.

Mapper · Veteran Member

Well I know this job he currently has is the main issue. If he could do this work in like a 3-man shop or something he would probably be much happier, but he works at a company of over 10,000 people and can't stand the hostile environment. Well, even if he was in a 3-man shop, he'd probably have friction with one of the people there! He is not an easy person to get along with, yet HE is never the problem...t's always someone else. I don't know if he realizes that every job he's had he's had an issue with someone and he turns it into "I don't know why people give me such a hard time". Well you do realize that YOU are the common denominator in it all?!

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

In my experience with living with alcoholism and an alcoholic, the 'issue' is never the external, its an internal disease. The job, the colleagues, the home life. Its everything outside when in reality its inside where the real issues lie and unless those are worked on in a program then the next outside issue is just around every corner. When I look back on my ex ah's issues they were constant and changed from one thing to another. Its a disease that tells you don't have it so your looking around for the answer that never comes really.

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

The goal is to let the person with the disease have the disease and for us to look after ourselves as much as we can. Whatever the alcoholic is doing or not doing is going to upset you because for us we arent addicted to the drink but we are addicted to the drinker and that enables us to not look at our own inside issue, the real truth. We find we are doing the same thing as the alcoholic in our life, looking for someone or something to blame on our own unhappiness. In reality, we are to blame, and the responsibility to change our lives isnt with the alcoholic its with us.

LedfootJenny · Senior Member

What do you do next week or in two weeks when he ...? This is how I used to think too! I would try to over analyze and find a crystal ball with the future inside of it. But really I've learned that I can only live one day at a time.

Additionally, his employment or lack thereof, his drinking, his choice. He's a grown man - whether you provide input or information won't matter.

That's his side of the street. You did a great job last night keeping peace in your home. You worked on your side of the street!

There's a saying "fake it til' you make it". It does feel like an act at first. That's because it's new, and it's not the pattern you two have been in for the last decade. With practice, it will come naturally and the peace will be real because it will be internal.

Mapper · Veteran Member

Thanks for everyone's input. It is very much appreciated. I always thought I needed to be "the fixer" because I always have been, but as you all point out, no matter what I say or do isn't going to change him. He needs to do that for himself. I just need to get that through my thick skull! I will try to encourage him to do things if he comes up with the suggestions himself and try slowly to just learn to keep my mouth shut about trying to MAKE him change.

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

How can YOU make changes to your financial arrangements so that it has less impact on you if he works or not? How can YOU take control of your own financial situation? For me it was dramatic, my A was addicted to a computer game as well as alcohol and when he repeatedly failed to help pay the electricity bill I let it be disconnected. I did warn him first and of course he didnt listen. So I let the power go out and of course I was prepared for it with candles and batteries and it wasn't that bad for me or my child. Just like a couple of days camping. But for him, when World of Warcraft stopped working, his universe fell apart.I had to do it twice and do you know what? He paid his half of the electricity bill every single time and in advance after that. I did stuff like that to get my new boundary across. I said i wont pay and then I didn't pay. His car was hauled away. . Too bad. He had to stop smoking because I didn't buy him smokes anymore. He went hungry. His life started to suck due to his having no money. I stopped caring if he worked or not. I didn't remind him of anything or give a crap about his health. He had to step up and he did, eventually. Thats what happens when we stop doing everything for them. They cope. They look after themselves. Crazy but true.

Mapper · Veteran Member

One thing I have noticed though is a VERY dramatic drop off on playing video games now that he's not drinking. He used to play this one game for a couple hours until I got home, spend 1-2 hours with me and then go back to playing it and sit and play it until 1AM even though he had to get up at 4AM. Now he'll sit and play for maybe 30 minutes and turn it off. Or when I'm ready for bed, he'll come to bed also. Before I couldn't get him to come to bed with me no matter what I'd say or ask of him. I never knew if it was the video gaming that was keeping him up and drinking was just a side effect of that or the drinking was keeping him up and the video gaming was a side effect. I see now that they fed off of each other. He'd stay up playing because he had to have one more beer, which turned into 3 beers which kept him playing. Now that the alcohol isn't there, the gaming doesn't appear to be as exciting. He has turned instead to spending more time learning to play the guitar, which is great.

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

OK I give up. Mapper, to roast a chicken, what you want to do is seal in the juices. You want it crispy outside but not too crispy so it is good to wrap it in aluminium foil for the first hour or so and then remove it and cook for another 40 minutes or so. I like to rub lemon pepper seasoning inside the skin before I put it in the oven.

ladybugnessa · Senior Member

missmeliss you are very wise... and you made me smile...

Mapper, I hear you trying to see good and yet all you talk about is him him him... what about YOU YOU YOU...

keeping the focus on HIM will NOT HELP YOU. and again YOU can't help HIM until YOU fix YOURSELF.

my husband used to play his MMO nightly for hours... he has not played once since he got out of inpatient rehab. he associates it with drinking so no gaming for him. HIS choice.

IN fact, EVERYTHING he does is HIS choice and everything I do is my choice and I have control over precisely ONE THING... ME... NOT him.

So I stop worrying about him. I stop worrying if he goes to meetings.
I stop worrying if he takes his meds
I stop worrying if he sleeps on the couch or comes to bed
I stop worrying about what he eats and when or where he is or what he's doing.

I say over and over NOT MY CIRCUS NOT MY MONKEYS

We are trying so hard to get you to see that the only thing you can do is keep the focus on yourself. to help you help yourself. I'm only 90 days in so I'm not very good at letting folks figure it out themselves by sharing ESH... I like to offer advice because even if YOU don't use it someone else may come along and use it even if you don't.

and perhaps they need to roast a chicken...

-- Edited by ladybugnessa on Friday 17th of April 2015 12:22:49 PM

missmeliss · ~*Service Worker*~

The stupid part of it is I'm vegetarian lol. I would never roast a chicken or suggest anyone else do so. Chickens are cool, did you know they are smarter than cats? True story.

LedfootJenny · Senior Member

Mapper,

It's hard to see and hear at the beginning.

Some say printing the post thread, sitting down and re-reading them slowly ( highlight what you like ) and ask yourself "if Mapper was my best friend posting this, what would I say to her to help her understand"? can be helpful.

MM - Did you know that pigs are even smarter than dogs?? Hoping to have a small pot belly some day - promising never to eat pork again of course! ;)

el-cee · ~*Service Worker*~

lol Mel, it sounds like you would make a great roast chicken and no I didnt know they were intelligent. I would probably eat cat too if it was socially acceptable, oops, sorry, offensive to cat lovers..only kidding!
Jenny, I like that idea, thats how I learn, with paper and highlighters. I think you need to treat this program like learning a new language, immersing yourself in it.

maryjane · ~*Service Worker*~

You all make me laugh. "Roasting a chicken".....

Mapper, will you please make us all a list about how you are going to make your life easier? What are a few steps that you can take? Think about this for awhile. I know selling the bike seems extreme but maybe in the future?.....

Take care of yourself

Fairlee · Senior Member

I can also relate, and could have written your post. Thankfully, after years and years of "investigating" my AH, it finally hit me that this "madness" that I create myself is doing no good whats so ever. I think for a long time maybe, as crazy as this sounds as I type, I enjoyed finding something that AH did that could get me all stirred up. It was this insane cycle and one time as I was in the middle of confronting my AH about something "I knew" I saw him almost laugh...like he was enjoying this craziness in me because I think somehow it made him feel more "ok" about what he was doing. I don't give him that anymore. I stay in "my hula hoop" and out of his. I am tempted all of the time to go check his hula hoop, but I try to catch myself before I get in the cycle of craziness.

There's no telling how many years *I* have shaved off of my life by stewing and fretting over what he was or was not doing...I just can't anymore. I feel quite tired of it all and honestly I'm starting to just not care what he is or is not doing. I do feel for you though - it feels like such an injustice to us, like it's not fair BUT honestly, we have to own what we put up with. That said, I am truly sorry that you are having to go through this. I hope you can find serenity.

pinkchip · ~*Service Worker*~

Not that this should be your main concern either, but I'd be more interested in him going to meetings and getting a sponsor at this time. Alcoholism will kill him faster than unemployment. Your main concern is you though. Were I you, I might try to separate finances as much as possible. Figure out what you could afford if he made a pittance or next to nothing. Then if he makes more...bonus. Also, it might be time for a serious talk about if he really cannot handle this job in early sobriety. Not an excuse to be a lazy, unemployed bum....BUT there is a chance that the job is triggering for him and he can't handle the stress in this part of early sobriety. Some folks I know in AA worked low brain power, lower stress "newcomer" jobs as we call them. But they are also really working recovery with meetings and a sponsor so AA is like a job almost for a year or two. He might need that. I don't know. Hopefully you guys can have honest communication about it. It does not sound like you guys can't stand each other or that you have contempt for each other. Maybe you guys can figure this out as he (and you) both get busy with recovery.

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