The material presented
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information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
First of all, I think the whole co-dependent thing is a crock. Everyone has to be dependent (not all the time) but a lot of times in your life. That is why we have friends and family, if you can't ever break down and be needy somethings, it would be a cold cold world. I don't believe I'm totally co-dependent on my husband, and I certainly can't be right now. He is in another state, going thro outpatient treatment and trying to find a new job while he does. We haven't physically seen him in a month! I don't totally rely on him for my happiness, I don't completely obsess over everything he does. I have friends, I do other things, I love to shop, I love TV, movies, reading, walking, doing things with my kids. But I still love my husband. Alanon teaches you to learn about their disease, to understand it's not their fault, and to treat it like diabetes or cancer. So I begin to do that, which makes me feel bad for him because I know he doesn't want this. But now because I still want to be with him, especially because he's getting help, I'm an enabler, or co-dependent. I really don't get it. As for him, I'm very confused, this is what he is getting out of his treatment down there:
He is flat out saying that he can no longer be with his family if he wants to stay sober for the rest of his life. He says somehow, me and the kids became intertwined with his alcoholism, and that we are not safe for him anymore. I've told him I love him, and support his decision on his recovery, and said whatever changes need to be made for him, I support that as well. Even if it meant starting a whole new life in another state. He says no, he doesn't even know who he is anymore. He doesn't know what he wants. He's not sure if he loves me because of his guilt, because I'm the mother of his kids, because we've been together so long, or what? He wonders if having a family is what he ever even wanted in the first place or if it's because that is just what "your supposed to do" He seems very confused with himself, but knows right now, that we are not good for him. He says everyone there, councellors, sponsers, etc say he is in the right place. He's only supposed to think day to day, but he can think far enough ahead to say that we all can't be together. It almost sounds to me like this is not even about his alcoholism anymore, but he using it as a way to just start a whole new life over and dump his other one behind him. I'm am truly shocked and sickend by all this he is telling me. He didn't drink every single day, he was a binge drinker. Now he makes it sound like our whole lives were fake. I didn't imagine him telling me how much he loved me a month ago. I'm so confused on what is going on with him. It makes no sense. Never would I ever think he could really abandon his family. He has never acted like that ever in our lives. He was always involved in the kids, coaching them in sports, a board member for our football league, we were very close and told each other everything, now it's like I don't even know who he is.
He gets upset telling me not to tell him that I love him and hope for our new future together. He says it messes up his head. Then he says his sponser says I'm a sick woman and need to go to Al-anon. Well, I am!! Then he calls yesterday crying wanting to know if we're watching the Steelers game (We have been HUGE Steelers fans forever) and I'm like Of course! So then he's like "I just wanted to see if we were doing it together" then cries and hangs up. And 2 weeks ago, he wanted me to fly down to see him(this was right after he got out of the hospital) now he says he can't have me come down there because it would mess him up royally. See why I'm confused!!!
Well, besides the alcohol, we had a good life and family together, and I believed that it could be wonderful with his sobriety. So his new found ideas are extremely shocking for me, I find it hard to really believe he can abandon his family and start a new life thinking its the only way he can achieve sobriety, leaving his family doesn't sound like the man I've known for 17 years. What is with men, how can they abandon so easily? I guess it will be his loss missing out on everything, and watching the kids in sports and grow up. I DON'T GET IT!!
As for my kids, (ages 15,11,7,4) it doesn't seem to bother them to much. They still go about their buisness, wanting friends to spend the night, going out, seeing movies. It's not like what I always hear, kids taking things so horribly, they seriously don't seem to care. Maybe my 15 year old a bit more, but not really, he laughs, carries on, and is his normal self. My 11 year old, doesn't even ask about his dad, like he's totally clueless he even has a dad. The younger two say they miss him, and then that's about it. My kids must live in a fantasyland. HELP
If you don't like what an active alcoholic is saying, just wait a few minutes - his tune will change!!
The lunacy of this disease is that we end up trying to make "sense out of nonsense", and it drives US batty!
I take issue with you dispelling the whole "codependency" thing as a load of hogwash, however. Codependency can be defined in two ways: 1. A lack of relationship with self; and 2. Doing things for others, to the detriment of yourself.
I think it is all a matter of degree.... Being nice to someone, is not being codependent. Doing things for other people, that they are perfectly capable of doing themselves, and having it hurt you in some form or another, IS codependency. My belief is that as WE recover, and get a grasp of where we are in our relationships, we begin to redefine where that line is for each one of us.
Take care
Tom
__________________
"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
hi and thanks for sharing. My recovering A has said similar things to me. He moved out after 31 years of marriage. "I don't love you never did" "The kids are grown now and they don't need anything" "You're sick". As canadianguy said trying to make sense out of the what the A says is crazy making. My husband lies and changes what he says and rationalizes everything he says and does. I too thought we had something going but part of this is denial. I didn't want to see who my husband really was. Part of it was all those sweet things that my husband told me. He says and does whatever puts him in a comfortable position.
Keep taking care of yourself and your children. The way I see it is that it is their loss giving up a marriage, a family, and a life. They truly don't love themselves enough to give us much more. I have faith in the Alanon program and others testimonial that our HP's have something better in mind for us.
Maybe the best thing to do is try to understand that he is going through some very tough emotional stuff right now and a lot of the feelings he has right now are most likely to change. He may be saying things without really thinking them through because of the insanity caused by his disease. Just because he has started recovery does not mean he is recovered. He has enough to deal with just trying to get sober. Let him do that without the outside pressure, even if it's only in his head right now. I remember acting and saying things to my wife in early recovery that are not like me at all today. That is the process of recovery happening. Let it happen. Yes, I think his sponsor is probably right. If you lived with an untreated alcoholic for that many years, you are sick to some extent. That does not mean you are to blame or are uncaring or are not a nice person. But you need to work on yourself. You seem to have a good grasp of what alcoholism does to the alcoholic. Put some of that effort into finding out what alcoholism does to the codependent and take a look at yourself. From my experience, what you see after working your program will be a bit different that what you see right now.
Be patient, you and he did not get where you are today in a short time, it took years.
I certainly can understand where you are sitting. My husband has led me on that rollercoaster ride before. One minute he loves me next one he says he doesn't want anything to do with anything in our house ever again. It's so frustraing it made me want to tear my hair out and run around the block naked just so I could be as nutty as he was. Since I am pretty shy I came to Al Anon instead. I thought enabling and codependent ways were how you built a life together, you know two people taking care of each other. Then something happened one day ...
I was in therapy and was talking about how hurt I was that on our anniversary I gave my husband a card. When he opened it he said "Well you could have signed it" ... I was so shocked I replied I'm sorry I didn't realize you had more than one person to share a wedding anniversary with. And then I felt really bad for a couple of days ... Back to the therapy session a few months later, something brought this topic up and I FINALLY realized ... I may not have signed the card but he never gave me one or even said Happy Anniversary.
The fact that it took me months to get my brain off what I was told I did wrong, his feelings, and not realize that by his actions our anniversary was not worth acknowledging ... I had a problem.
My point in this rambling is that sometimes we don't see what is right in front of our faces. I'm not saying that everyone enables or is codependent and it is wrong, IMHO we each have to decide what is acceptable. But it takes time to come to understand what has really happened in our lives. It's surprising what comes out when you start working on yourself and not worrying about what our A's are thinking, saying, etc
Keeping it Al-Anon.... a lot of things are shared here, some from CAL (conference approved literature) and some from other sources. Other sources can be great stuff, helpful stuff... but what I see happening sometimes is people confusing these other sources with our Al-Anon CAL stuff. "Codependency" is not an Al-Anon topic. Sure we have members who are codependents, but not all are. When I was in doubt about what was an Al-anon topic, and what wasn't, I was told to look in the indexes of our daily readers. Is it listed there? If so, it is an appropriate Al-Anon topic. Codependency does not appear in One Day At A Time, Courage to Change, or Hope for Today. To my knowledge (and I'm willing to be corrected), it does not appear in any of our literature.
You don't have to be codependent to be enabling. Anyone can be enabling. I'm not one who would say staying in your marriage is an "enabling" act. Excuse me? I'm pretty sure my marriage vows didn't say "to love and to cherish and to enable..." I'm sorry you have been getting that message from others, that staying is enabling - I sure haven't read in any of our literature that staying in your marriage is any part of enabling them. No wonder you are confused if these are the messages you've been getting!!
As for what your hubby is saying... give it time. He probably is as confused as you are. Just as it takes us time to get clear thinking, so too it takes time for them to get that. I do strongly believe that everyone (not just the alcoholic) needs to make changes in their life, as we ALL were affected by this disease. They cannot come home to an old idea. Keep coming back, keep the focus on what you can change (yourself), get a sponsor, work the steps... this will really help in clearing up your confusion and will show you how the program really works.
We're not here to take others inventories, to tell them "you're enabling, you're codependent, you're this, you're that". We are here to share our own experiences, to share what we have learned thru this program, how we have used it in our life, and to help others understand the steps and slogans and tools (sponsor roles). By listening and talking with others, I could begin to see myself in their stories, I could begin to see where I was enabling, where I was acting inappropriately, etc. I was able to start taking my own inventory and looking at what needed changing in myself. When I was unsure, I would talk with my sponsor for input. Thats how it works. We are free to "take what you like and leave the rest". Anytime anyone starts taking my inventory or telling me what I should do..well thats when I apply the "leave the rest" part. Personally I don't think anyone is qualifed to do that unless they are walking in my shoes, thinking in my head, and living my life or they go by the name of "God".
It just really upsets me to see a newcomer upset because they are being labeled or told what they should do. That just is not the Al-Anon program. Please keep coming back. It can get better. Are you attending any meetings in your area? Or the online meetings here? Would love to see you in chat. There are supportive non-judgmental people here. Just remember, not one of us is perfect. We're all just trying to learn and find serenity in our lives. Some have had to leave their alcoholic to do so, but others of us have stayed. That is a personal choice each person makes, and it is their right to make it without judgment. Al-Anon teaches us to support the person regardless of which their choice was, as our main goal is to find a healthy serene way of life, regardless of whether the alcoholic is drinking or not.
Luv, Kis
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Let your light shine in the darkness. "I can't just bring my mind to meetings...I must also bring my heart."
Are all alanon's codie? I doubt it. What I found was that thru Alanon and by working on myself, I found myself to be. Also I agree with what Tom said. Doing things for people and being nice to them is not codependent. It's when you do these things to the detrmiment to yourself. When you do things over and over that they are perfectly capable of doing, you do more, they do less to the point that you are overwhelmed. Sometimes we do things that go against our basic mores and values because of it. What ever you label that, it's no healthy.
As for you staying in your relationship as being enabling and codependent? I've never seen that expressed in Alanon. Detachment with love is a common theme between Alanon and codependents. Detachment doesn't mean leaving. Some alanoners leave, some stay. The key is finding your serenity. While I'm leaning towards leaving, I'm almost in awe of those who appear so strong that they can detach with love, work their program and stay.
I'm not sure who is telling you what you are and who is giving you advice. The key is to jump into your program. You'll find out about you. You'll learn those things you want to keep and those things that need changing. It's for you and up to you.
As for the things your A is saying form rehab. There could be so many factors, from him being an A and just saying crap, from him being in a dry drunk stage and still being ripe with the isms. Maybe he is starting to find himself in his recovery. I can see what my recovery is making me learn about me. I can only imagine it for an A. It's scary to learn things about yourself, esepcially things that you never imagined. Now imagine learning about things you've not only stuffed away but numbed w/ a substance. It must be terrifying. In a way it sounds like he might want to make sure he is w/ you all for the right reasons.
You can't control the outcome of his self discovery. He might decide that he was there for all the wrong reasons, and that would be hard for your. He could very well learn and decide that he was there for the right reasons. Imagine how deep that feeling could be should he come to that realization after deep introspection and work.
In your situation I think the Sernity Prayer would be my rock right now.
Keep coming back, we are glad you are here. Bob
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You are a perfect child of God and God and I love you just the way you are! (added by me...in that special alanon way)
Well i can define my own enmeshment. I no longer take other peoples inventories and go into what they need to do. I know I sometimes feel more for the A's pain than i do for my own pain. I know I feel angrier at his mother for her abandonment of him on many many levels than he does. That is kinda crossing a boundary she is his mother, not mine. Admittedly her abandonment of him on so many levels affects me. Her not offering to lift a finger when he was ill meant it was all left to me. I approached her, he approacher her, she remained remote. I gave up. I now need to give up completely and quit being resentful. She is not going to change why keep waiting for it and resenting that she is not a mother to him. Its his mother not mine. I just have to deal with it and let go but the letting go part is hard because after all she SHOULD be a mother.
I think sometimes I don't know where I end and the other person begins. I take responsibility for what others do and no responsibility for what I do. I rush to help the A all the time admittedly some of the issues like whether he is working affect me tremendously as I am no longer in a position to help him financially and I have set a lot of limits on it. At the same time he does not and never did rush to help me ever and I feel that especially when I have over extended myself to him. I am tremendously compassionate to his illness he is not compassionate to mine. I can make a lot of excuses for it but there is none really. He asks but does not reciprocate. I could know that very very early on in the relationship but I did not expect he would reciprocate. That is something I am now addressing as I move into a new mode of relating. I stop over extending and start requesting and if I don't get an answer to my requests these days I withdraw.
I know my opinions on many many issues changed as I evolved in my process. What I think today is a healthy way of relating will probalby alarm me a year from now. I hope so because I definitely feel deprived today. I know for me in recovery there are no longer any more wild leaps into magical thinking into thinking with or without the A that my life will be easy. It may or may not I do not know what life has in store for me. I know the recent recession hit me very very hard on many levels as did the A's illness and my own issues. I know when I was in "denial" that in some ways I could pretend issues did not affect me that much or I could blame some situation or some person. I no longe blame anyone but I do know that certain life events are incredibly stressful and I try to limit my stress when it is high.
I am glad that you are here and talking about your life with or without the A. I know I will need help if and when I leave the A. I know I also need help just to live or co-exist with him I am not sure I was willing to admit to that before.
