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There is a general reluctance on the part of most people to forgive old injuries. Some of us wasted lots of time brooding about old wrongs done to us or trying to get even for some past injustice. But the only way we can ever really get even is to forgive others completely and without the slightest hidden reservation. If we haven't forgiven others, the old resentments are a poison in our own lives. We continue to feel the pain of the original injury, and the ensuing resentment destroys our peace of mind and endangers our relationships.
>>>>>rosie>>>>for me it isn't so much "reluctance" but WHO i am being asked to forgive......ok, there are forgiveable offenses, and there are NOT forgiveable offenses....the latter kind is why there is a hell......i think the reason the **word** forgiveness stuck with me, is becuz i had people actually TELL me i had to "pray for my perp to have blessings???" when he raped my body/ mind/ soul????? left me with a lifetime in recovery and the losses he caused????? like WHO is gonna pray for ME to get back all he stole????? all that loss am NOT being recompensed for..that i have to just "suck up and accept" grieve over, adn try to make a life for me with all these holes in me........so for me , until i got into recovery, forgiveness for that kind of evil, well i cannot do it to this day.....the others??? even my mother who enabled him, i forgave her becuz i knew she was his victim too...she was unable to save herself, so it was UNrealistic for me to expect her to save me.......
>>>>>>rosie....in my child mind i had UNrealistic expectations for both....god gave me to them as a gift...to be loved/protected/nurtured/prepared for a GOOD life.......my "protectors" became my predators....they made my life a living hell, with no safe place to run......but still i culd forgive her/ let her go becuz she was destroyed by him to the point where she drank herself to death......i figure she paid enough, and i can let it go.....take care of me...fill my heart up with love/ caring for me, and thus, there is no room for hate/ resentment......she was his pathetic victim...not as lucky as i, not as strong as i......so i forgive her and if she were alive, i would say to her that even tho i forgive her and release her from any punishment from me, she hurt me too much...cost me too greately for us to have a relationship....MY choice...MY right!!!!!
>>>>>>rosie...this recovery program has enabled me to do the following with the perp........1st, i vented/ raged about him/ ...i literally CURSED his soul....i asked god to burn him in hell, slowly.....i took a tennis racquet and each time old anger/ rage came up, i beat the chair, cursed his soul, visualizing his ugly/ evil face as i beat him until i was exhausted, screaming at him words of hate words of condemnation for what he did to me......i did this over and over and over again, until the need to do this has grown less and less....the ONLY time i have to do it now is when i have yet more memories, triggers, that i have to release the emotions about........now??? i just want to wrap him in a garbage bag and dump him off onto the feet of his god and say "here, this is your garbage, i release it to you and i shall go wash my hands and trust that you will dispose of it in a just fashion"
>>>>>>rosie...i am at that point, mostly now.....i am deliberately filling up my mind and my heart with loving me/ nurturing me/ parenting me/ taking care of me.....if i keep my heart FULL of me/ love/ goodness etc.....there won't be any room for hate for that.........
>>>>>rosie>>there is some evil that is just NOT forgiveable....even god somewhere says in the bible that confession , repentence and restoration/amends are REQUIRED B4 forgiveness can be given.....and also when an offender damages the relationship between the victim and the holy spirit, well they are written out of the book of life becuz it is labelled "injury to the holy spirit" ANYtime a person separates their victim from their god and leaves them ....UNhelped...to a life of spiritual struggle, i think, accordingly to the people i talked with, that falls, too under the "injury to the holy spirit" so WHY did i even THINK of wasting my precious time trying to forgive an unforgiveable monster??? taking that energy away from me?? the saveable???? nonsense!!!!!! NOW?????as i am reaching the , hopefully end, of my raging/ grieving/ working through yet MORE painful memories....i can wrap him in a trash bag, and dump him off at the feet of his god and i can say "i give him over to you....i take my hands OFF and give THANKS for yours being ON him"........i am at this point where the WILLINGNESS to do this has come into me.......i used to fantasize taking my knife to him, torturing him, mutilating him , etc....i NO longer do that.....karma can take care of him WAY better than i can.....
>>>>rosie>>i believe forgiveness is a by product of recovery......it can happen...i may not....it is NOT necessary for recovery.....what IS necessary for my recovery is for me to keep the FOCUS ON ME........ and work on ME!!!!! self love....self care....self nurturing........SURRENDERING the defects he caused me AND the resentments that still creep up.....in other words, the sollution???? is what i am doing........sharing honestly....sponser work......journalling/studying/practicing the literature i read...... more meetings when i am having my bad days.......REprogramming me......affirmations.......PRACTICE my new healthy behaviour habits......THIS is my answer to what was done to me.............if he can mess me up with his hit and miss evil/darkness........i can restore me with mine and my hp's dedicated/ comitted CONSTANT good/ light.......only when i am having bad memory/ dealing with anger/grief times do i think about him......i erased his name off me in a court of law...that helped me a lot......the rest?????? marry this program and work it for its entirety......ONE day i have to win.....i think i already did by dragging my sick butt in here and being honest and willing and comitted to my recovery......
In forgiving others, we do not grant a favor to them, but to ourselves. By extending forgiveness, we release thoughts and feelings that have been like a cancer in our lives. We are not giving up a possession or a right; instead, we are freeing ourselves from a burden that nobody needs to carry. We are letting go of garbage that we do not need in our lives. When we forgive others, we also realize that we are forgiven. As it is stated in closing meetings, "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."I will not review past hurts and injuries this day. I will go through the day knowing that God forgives me to the extent that I forgive others.
>>>>rosie>>>hell no!!!! it is RELEASE for ME!!!!!! i am releasing and giving UP the thoughts of revenge/ resentment.....one thing i DO believe....KARMA!!!!! NOONE escapes it!!!!!! the pay backs are hell if one does not make amends here on earth in their body.......that is why i am mending my spiritual fences NOW, in my body, here on earth, becuz i do NOT want to face this when i die!!!!!!! i like this "letting go of garbage" i literally "see" myself, putting him in a "hefty trash bag" and literally dumping the garbage onto the feet of his god and just dumping him there.....he was trash!!! disposable!!!! so what do you do with trash????? you clean up its mess and stench and wrap it up in a garbage bag and you DUMP IT!!!!!! and WALK away!!!!!
>>>>rosie>>>>i KNOW my hp does not expect me to "forgive" in this sense to someone he already condemned.....what i discovered is that i had to forgive ME....forgive ME for walking away from my inner child to keep us alive.....forgive ME for being so helpless, LITERALLY helpless over my own body/ mind-emotions/ and even my soul.....forgive ME for accepting money and gifts from him as a pay off for my silence....forgive ME for being a helpless child who developed survival tools to "get through this".......sad as it is, the poor child, like me, hates/blames herself for the horror she was an albeit UNwilling "part of"......forgive ME for the hurt i did to others as a result of my anger/bitterness/rage/fear/distrust, etc....... i ONLY review past hurts when i am doing step 4 and need to establish amends....i work them through so i CAN dispense with them........this last sentence???? "god forgives me to the extent that i forgive others"????? i would like to modify that to "god forgives me when i forgive the forgiveables...when i make amends to either them or to me...god forgives me as i forgive myself......AND he does NOT expect me to forgive UNrepentent evil who was not even sorry about what he did" ALL my hp asks me to do is keep working through the anger/outrage/grief AS i AM and forgive ME!!!! leave the garbage to the garbage disposers........god is NOT holding back forgiveness for me becuz the best i can do is to dump him onto his god's feet and erase his name and his right to be connected to me.......
>>>>rosie>>>> i know , if i keep doing my step 4, and grief work, i'll get to the point where i don't feel so much grief and pain.....its just i had 56 almost 57 years of FROZEN emotions that i am NOW thawing....DECADES of ice sheets that were my emotions/ ability to feel at one time......i am NOT going to thaw over night....and for THAT i have to grief....that i am still in this after 2 years HARD work in recovery.....its hard not to feel the old hate/rage come up.....but each time it rears its head, i gently tell myself "lets keep the focus on me..i am the saveable one...i am the one in the 'book of life' so lets spend this energy loving/helping me and give to hp the hate/rage".......it works.....i am putting it into PRACTICE.........
>>>>rosie>> many times....many times especially during this latest visit to step 4, i have ASKED my hp to "bless me" with AMNESIA!!!! this latest flood of memories seems to be getting into the deepest parts now....for THAT i'll say "thank you for the honesty and truth i asked for becuz THAT will be my freedom from this....NO denial...NO supressing....i want to see it all, so i can work through it all, and be DONE with it all.........peace/ rosie
I have been thinking about this post all day. You're pain & anger come through loud & clear. Your very last staement about the memories & letting them go, I think that is exactly what is happening to you now. We recall things so we can let them go, they are flooding up to go out.
You want to be released & I pray that you will.
I have been wanting to say this since 10 am but I don't want it to come out harsh or "wrong" but I know that the truth hurts so I am trying to give myself the freedom to write freely. You know I love you & would never say anything to hurt you. What little I know about your story & background I cannot relate to. So I think who am I to say anything to you? I have never walked in your shoes.
I can only relate what I know about my spiritual experiences. You are saying you are having trouble forgiving. Forgiveness & compasion are the pinnacle of love & HP. I believe "lessons in love" is what HP is & what the purpose of our lives is. IMHO, of course.
I do know form therpay & self-analysis for over 20 years that forgiveness frees you to accept the wonders & great, astounding power of HP to touch us & benefit us with miracles & good works for our lives/souls/hearts/minds.
I am not a vengeful person, I believe that HP will take care of everyone in the end, ten-fold. I was taught not to judge but to forgive cuz, if you can't forgive yourself, how could we expect HP to? I was also raised by the golden rule, do unto others. The best gift you can give yourself is to forgive your perp ~ I know this seems unfathomable to you right now. But I can only imagine HP has Blessed you with an enormous capacity of/for love. Maybe this doesn't make sense... I do know asking "why" gets us all no where, I don't know why other than for us to know HP.
I know that HP forgives the unforgivable. It frees you, as long as u don't forgive the perp, u are connected to him & buffering HP to give you a soft comforting place to rest in. I say this is respect for you & love of HP. Forgiveness is never for the other person, I know your perp is in hell but in a way, you are still as well. We cannot know each other's pain/abuse/lives really & truly. We can share but no one can have our perceptions. But I did have an idea, if u choose to decide to try, to be released. As u have told me, HP 'didn't rescue you & u got mad at HP.'
I do know what it is turn your back on God/HP ~ I have done so myself. Hp keeps bugging me, reaching out when I wanted to suffer, be enraged or do it my own way. My way is one of resistence, debating, questioning, fighting. I had to have myself nearly erradicated to 'find' myself again. I have been to the pit of despair & back many times ~ having suicidal ideation for over 20 years is not a pain I would wish on my worst enemy.
Visualize your perp as an infant... helpless, naked, vulnerable, crying, abused, completely & utterly helpless & dependent on & for everything. Maybe it would help if u could visualize your perp going through all that he put you through. Maybe u have to visualize yourself in his shoes... unfathomable I know. I cannot know what makes someone go from theif to murderer let alone a rapist & yet I feel molesters ought to be punished & are 'unreformable' ~ dichotomous to being a non vengeful/judgemental vegetarian person, I know!
I do have strong opinions & am sorry for what you have suffered & am compassionately reaching out to you. You are trying your damndest to change & you are reaching out. I not only want to be free myself but I want you to be free. I was compelled to write some kind of response to you. You don't deserve to suffer on his account anymore ~ I mean u deserve the highest Blessings, peace, joy & serenity from HP & all of the freedoms that come along with it.
in Love, Light, Humility & Respect, -K
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
kitty , i know you mean well, but i gotta LEAVE the following....
I know that HP forgives the unforgivable. It frees you, as long as u don't forgive the perp, u are connected to him & buffering HP to give you a soft comforting place to rest in.
>>>Rosie>>>>>i dont' buy this for one second....this is why hell was made...for the ones who wrote themselves OUT of the "book of life"......and as far as my buffering hp to give me soft comforting place to rest in???? i don't buy this either....the hp that i am **starting** to know would NEVER withold comfort to me cuz i cannot forgive child killers.....SCREW him, if god wants to forgive him, he will have to go in my place, as i cannot ever forgive this kind of evil.......if you KNEW all the sick crap he made me do with him, you would never suggest this to me......i am not angry, you just don't understand what we children go through....noone can....i SAW the darkness....LIVED with it....WALLOWED in it against my will......god does not forgive those who "cause the little ones to stumble".....
Visualize your perp as an infant... helpless, naked, vulnerable, crying, abused, completely & utterly helpless & dependent on & for everything. Maybe it would help if u could visualize your perp going through all that he put you through. Maybe u have to visualize yourself in his shoes... unfathomable I know.
>>rosie...l am not sure what you mean by this.....i would like to belive that you are sugesting that i visualize him "getting his pay back"??? i cannot fathom you asking me to "feel his pain" SCREW his pain......i did not turn around and abuse children...kill their souls...it never entered my mind......i just hurt me with my codapendency, cuz i could NEVER NEVER NEVER harm a child.......AND, i got help....why??? cuz i wanted to STOP the evil.....reverse it.......NOT perpetuate it.......i will assume that you are suggesting that i do a visual on his getting what i got......
I cannot know what makes someone go from theif to murderer let alone a rapist & yet I feel molesters ought to be punished & are 'unreformable' ~ dichotomous to being a non vengeful/judgemental vegetarian person, I know!
>>>rosie>>>molesters are unreformable, becuz i believe when they do such evil, the holy spirit LEAVES them...and god washes his/her/its hands of them.......i am NOT vengeful....i am not really judgemental.......but this creature??? i am sick and tired of people suggesting that i "put myself in his shoes" "feel his pain" "won't be blessed unless i bless /forgive him" kitty the VERY best i can do is wrap the garbage up after i work through my ENORMOUS pain, and toss it at the feet of his god......and when i do my visualize, i do visualize myself "wrapping the garbage up" and DUMPING it off in the sewers........i know you mean well and have my best interest at heart, but if you were never raped and used as a prostitute by your own FATHER, you cannot understand why the best i can do is, after i work through all the pain/grief, is to "toss him in the garbage" and walk away..............i appreciate your thoughts, but to forgive that????? god will have to go in my place if he wants to go into hell and forgive this denizen of the darkness......he is there somewhere stepping on jeffrey dahmer's head............sorry, i am doing BIG time step 4 work and in no mood to have ANY forgiveness for perps....ANY of them......i am going to focus on ME...MY healing....MY recovery.....and MY god is not going to hold back my "comfortable place" becuz i cannot bring myself to forgive demons..........i think i need to go to a meeting, cuz this reply triggered me a little...not real bad (progress) but some........love / rosie
((((((( Rosie ))))))))) ~ I am sorry. Your God WILL follow you to your place & I pray for it now! No, I cannopt understand & as I said you obviously have a HUGE Divine capacity for love... I think rapists/molesters are unforgivable for stealing a child's innocent heart/soul/mind.
You are prolly more forgiving than I myself, know how to be, forgive me for opening my big mouth.
-K
-- Edited by kitty at 20:45, 2006-01-04
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Light, Love, Peace, Blessings & Healing to Us All. God's Will Be Done. Amen.
kitty it is ok......you meant well, i can see this.....after 2 years of 12Steps, i can see , through my pain, i can see those souls who mean well for me.........2 years ago i would have "gone off" but not now.......
what i wouldnt' GIVE to be able to "fast forward" this, but i can't....i have to work out EACH incident with my poor inner child whom i had to "walk away from" to keep us alive.......
i am NOT angry at you....i KNOW you have a big heart......my ancesters used to say to me the REAL way to feel a man's heart is to "walk in his moccasins" and move around in them......i am sooooo sad that i STILL have outrage/grief to work on....i dredge up new memories, and BAAM!!! it rage/ grief/ crying time AGAIN!!!! i am sooo sick of this, i can't even tell you.....but the other option is to quit!! and that is NOT an option.........HONEST , i am not mad...U R the bestest!!!!!
I sure do understand your anger, I have backed down, shut up and not responding to my A fathers vicious outbursts to me. How I wanted to scream back at him all the pain of my childhood. But I didn't, I just stood quiet and "took it." I suppose someday one of our confrontations may lead to violence. Not on my part, on his, he was the abuser, I was the survivor. I suppose I would just call the police, and have him charged, but what good would that do? Hes a 78 yr old old man, now..and I look at him and think how did that old man terrorize me so. And how does he continue to do so? My mom is dead, early grave due to stress, and my 44 yr old only sibling, brother (also A) killed himself, just several mos. ago. And in his suicide letter, he says, I guess my father was right , I am a loser...and that hurts my heart. How can such a man continue on , even causing pain and death, for so many yrs . He has hatred in his eyes, for I remind him of a past he doesnt want to deal with. I think, how can he forget? He shouts, "what did I ever do to you? "And I want to scream ..everything ! How can you forget? And then I remember, he was falling down drunk, and can't remember. He doesnt remember..he sees the paper not allowing him near my moms house..yet he says.."I had to leave and I had no where to go"...but he can't see why he had to leave...there is no way to argue with an As logic, since it is no logic. Why does he hate me, when I was the one he hurt, and why does he constantly put my mom down, when shes dead and in the grave...and he says of my brother.."Im done with that boy." ...whew...Im not dealing well with all this...falling off the steps, not detaching, because it is so personal. I m at a lost sometimes, have had yrs of therapy, counseling, meds, you name it, I tried it..Tried to forgive, and then he came back and Im trying all over again..but its not working this time...God has given him another chance. I should too, not in my life, but on the outside. I keep him away, yet the sting of his presence invades my life every so often and I relive it all again. How do I stop? Thanks for letting me vent some more...and I truly understand what you are going through..have experienced all those feelings...take care, kat
________kat wrote....Im not dealing well with all this...falling off the steps, not detaching, because it is so personal. I m at a lost sometimes, have had yrs of therapy, counseling, meds, you name it, I tried it..Tried to forgive, and then he came back and Im trying all over again..but its not working this time...God has given him another chance. I should too, not in my life, but on the outside. I keep him away, yet the sting of his presence invades my life every so often and I relive it all again. How do I stop? Thanks for letting me vent some more...and I truly understand what you are going through..have experienced all those feelings...take care, kat ____________________________________________
rosie>>>>>kat, we are going to have our ups and downs until we work out ALL the pain...ALL the bad memories...i have 56 years (b4 i got into recovery) of suppressed emotional pain...it just SAT inside of me.....now i am "thawing" it out.....allowing it to come out...FEELING the outrage/grief, and it is overwhelming at times.....i did the counselling (little that i could afford) meds. self help books/ groups and this has been my best hope......that "sting of his presence" is just your inner child, i think, like mine, remembering all the pain that she could not discharge...my inner child is sad and grieving now becuz of , it appears, at my age, ALL my hopes and dreams TOO, in ADDITION to what he did to me when i was young, all my hopes and dreams are gone too...i got here too late..........lately this has been a HARD session of ACCEPTANCE that the ONLY thing i am going to get out of working this program, the ONLY guarentee it gives is that i can love myself, and take better care of myself and make better choices...make healthier decisions....i am going to have to RUN with what i have.....my hopes of ever retireing??? GONE...my hopes of maybe finding a mate and sharing life???? at this age, probably GONE.......it would take a miracle for me to ever find emotional and financial security......i got here too late.....so i will learn to love me and make my peace with ME.....but ANYthing that is undoable under my power???? i let it GO....give it over......do what i CAN do for me and let go the rest.....ALL the opportunities that came to me when i was so sick do not come to me now...its like any chances of bettering my life have dried up, except what i can do in the way of loving me.....so i am excercising and dieting and working to get into shape, so i can work until i am 80 or so, when my house is paid off and MAYBE i can live on social security????? another thing i do is MAKE me stay in the now....HOLD me in the now, becuz if i think of the future he robbed me of, i spiral down into depression and despair....so i MAKE me stay in the now.......do whati can with my NOW......HERE AND NOW....this is where i am at now.......make it a GOOD NOW.....start by loving me and taking care of me and doing ALL i can to allow my inner child to discharge her rage and grief and just plain disappointment at the unfairness of her life.....to not supress her...to LISTEN and validate her so she doesn't come out in panic attacks......i am powerless over all things but my choices as to how i take care of me......so i do that.........and leave the rest......
kat, i am glad i gave you a chance to vent your feelings.....keep letting them FEEL....that is the way we can ever find relief....to let ourselves FEEL......and when well meaning people tell us "you should put it in the past now"???? well?? we will WHEN we work through EACH hurt EACH insult EACH injury EACH emotion we had to stuff....i have 56 years i am thawing out...........peace in recovery/ rosie
thank you rosie, for sharing, I think there are more opportunities than you think to rebirth, like famous bird, rising out of the fire..what was that called? Anyway, you are valuble,because you have survived, and you use that to help someone else.
I think the worst thing I ve had said to me, is , when are you going to get over that? A full childhood full of horror and pain, and I can't even write down a decription of what happened to me. And it was so bad for my brother too, that he committed suicide. I don't even know some of the things that happened to him too. Getting over isn't it. Getting around it isnt it...but getting through it might be it...It means surviving and finding meaning in something meaningless. Why survive if only to remain miserable. I am fortunate to have married a non-alcoholic, and have 2 beautiful kids, one of which to graduate this spring. Yet I suffer, not apparant to them, I keep it hidden. And the pain of my growing up with and yet still confronting my A, affects me still. I want it gone, and him...but it never will be. Anger still brews deep inside. And I want to scream and shout but it doesn't help.
I too, sit with my contanted anger and frustration. I need to let it go, and detach, but I hang on to it, looking for some sort of justice, that in my heart I know will never come. There will not be apologies, nor regret. He was drunk, doesnt remember it, only reminds himself that I caused him problems..yea rite....its all about him everytime..they play the game right don't they..turn around the blame..its my fault for being born...my brother a mistake and I an accident or so he says.......and yet I try to forgive...
