The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I have seen this often and the best remedy was to ask for a Business meeting the following week to discuss the cross talk issue.
It is amazing how (we who are recovering from this disease) are so unaware of the many forms of manipulation and control we use unconsciously.
The business meetings can define cross talk and insist on the adherence. As a chair person I have often stopped a share because of this issue and no hard feelings developed'
Good luck
-- Edited by hotrod on Sunday 29th of January 2012 10:32:07 AM
I am a double winner. I have been sober for a long time in AA and just now realizing I have adult child issues. I am going to Alanon and ACA.
When I am in an AA meeting and share my experience, after I share I often get cross-talked at in a subtle (but not so subtle) manipulative way that is meant to tear down or disprove what I said. This causes me a lot of pain because I wasn't validated when I was growing up.
I am praying for people and doing everything I can, but it doesn't stop.
I am attractive and smart and really know the 12 steps. But I also have a vulnerability about me. So I consider myself the perfect candidate for this.
It is hard not to take it personally. But I also don't want to volunteer myself to be a victim.
I thought of pulling people aside and trying to talk it out but what can you really say to someone like that?
Alanon meditation book suggests I can do that, or just take it to God, or this one I love: Minimize my exposure. But I need these meetings for my recovery.
Does anyone have experience with this kind of behavior? What do you suggest? I don't want to let these assh-les know they affect me, but I suppose they already do.
I have never identified with this behavior, and it's always made me feel seperated from other alcoholics.
I don't know if this will help or not however I kind of hear two things going on ... first off we tend to project things about other people that are really about us. If someone's behavior truly bothers me then it's time for me to take a look at my own inventory. I'm not going to say that you don't have a valid issue either. Bottom line is I wasn't there, I didn't hear the ton or context of what is being said. We are all in these meetings for different situations however the core issues are still the same. I know sometimes I can tend to take things very personally and honestly it is actually what I need to hear. I remember my first meeting for the 3rd time and a woman looking at me saying, .. well are you going to sit on the pity pot or get off of it? I was so angry and now that I have had time to reflect .. it was something I would have said to someone else AND it was true!! That was shocking and horrifying all at the same time. I didn't appreciate it at the time to say the least as my pain is my pain regardless if I'm walking around with the pity pot glued to my backside. At some point I unglued it and this woman is a gem now that I can truly see how offended by the truth I was.
You have every right to address it privately or at least that would be my take I could be wrong. Again .. I haven't ever had to do that so someone with more experience than me will have to give you ESH. The other thing is if it truly bothers you there are ways to address the issue by calling a business meeting about cross talking and tabling the cross talking. Again someone else with more experience than I have will be able to put that better.
Don't let one turkey (you or the other turkey .. that's suppose to be funny no offense :)) be the excuse to not go to these meetings. Keep doing what you are doing. If we are mirrors to our situations then I start with me first. If I can truly identify that the issue is nothing within myself then I would look at other options.
Hugs P :)
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Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
I am a double winner also. I know what you are talking about, especially in AA.... People come into AA with varying levels of emotional maturity and they buddy up in cliques that can be reminiscent of high school. If you feel vulnerable or let it affect you too much, it is literally like a reject in high school again. On the flip side, there are also some people that are socially maladjusted and they share ridiculous things and think that other's reactions to them are weird. Meanwhile, they should pay attention to the reactions they get. So, knowing that AA and alanon are about change and receiving social feedback in a helpful way, I might just go up to one of these folks in the most nonthreatening way after a meeting and ask "I'm not trying to be paranoid here, but I noticed you commenting after my share. I'm trying to learn about myself and I do want your feedback. Is there some feedback you can help me with. I don't want to be having the same problems forever so please help me if you have something to say that could help me." This is the way that you will really find out something helpful or whether it is just immature BS on the part of others. Of course, I only recommend doing this if: 1. You actually care to know what they think or are saying; and 2. If you think you can humble yourself enough to appeal to these people in the way I stated above (despite the way they act all catty after your shares); and also 3. If you think you can handle whatever the feedback is. Taking this approach is tough but it will stop you from being victim and it is more honest than saying "I don't care what any of you think of me" when of course you do care because they are your peers in the program and that is a big part of why we go to meetings.
Cross talk is wrong and disrespectful, but AA and Alanon are social endeavors where we are meant to learn from others and to receive some social feedback. As much as you can put a positive spin on it, it could help you. In the event that none of this is helpful - Screw those haters and just be cool with your circle of trusted peers, yourself, and your HP :)
Puksha, Excellent insight. It IS about me taking it personally. I have prayed this morning and it worked, but I can go right back into it. Since this affects my sleep I am often exhausted and it's harder to deal with on a tired, inactive day.
I think it's plain old ego...theirs being power mongers and mine taking it personally. I certainly share about the solution.
It is time for me to start working through adult child issues anyway, at Alanon and ACA. I will go to a few healthier meetings and keep it simple.
Hotrod, also tons of insight. Yep - it's about manipulation and control, and I'm trying to find out what rights I have. I may bring it up at a business meeting, I may pull a few people aside with patience and talk to them, but really, what can you say to someone like that? I will bring it up at the business meeting if I feel it's a meeting i want to stay at. My own tolerance might be the only way.
Is there an actual tradition or principle that says there is no cross-talk allowed? Can I back this up with literature?
Am I allowed to say something from my seat as a member of the "audience"?
Excellent advice and wording. Very helpful. Thanks.
I will really listen to myself in meetings and keep it very simple and short.If it keeps happening I'll know it's not me. but I really hate being silenced and not sharing things that are helpful to the ones who want it.
The bottom line is, if they can't tolerate me, how can they tolerate the world out there, or their mother and father and husbands?
Same goes for me. I can only work on my own tolerance.
In my time in AA I have also found out that when I was most disturbed by others....those people wound up being folks that I later found out had serious problems that I would not want to have. Sometimes it's good to revert back to "We are here because we're not all there." In response to how will they accept the world, husbands, parents - Well, many wont and they will relapse and that is pretty damn sad isn't it? Better to feel sorry for them.
Pinkchip, Yes. Pity patience and tolerance. It's true, I have witnessed many people do this but since they are operating on ego instead of spiritual principles, they eventually have a crisis due to their own immaturity. Down the line, they try to manipulate someone or something and it blows up in their faces, and they can't overcome. As hard as this path is, I can only control my own recovery.
And I think I found at least one example that we're not supposed to do this to each other: "AA is Not allied with any sect, denomination, politics, organisation or institution. Does not wish to engage in any controversy, neither endorses or opposes any causes"
I am from NYC and at every meeting I attend there is an announcement read that there is NO Cross talk allowed in the meeting. Then the definition of cross talk is read. If your meeting does not include this that could be a suggestion for your business meeting.
I truly believe that the most people who cross talk are doing so from a place of unawareness. This is how they always communicate. We all have very destructive tools that we bring to meetings. Talking privately to them will just bring up their hostility and their need to justify behavior
Business meetings seem to be the best way to solve these issues Of coarse if someone is doing this to you at the meeting, and the Chair does not intervene I have seen people raise their hands and object with courtesy and keeping principles above personalities
Thanks Betty, because I have felt for a while now like maybe it is time for me to leave AA. But my heart tells me I need the program of recovery, and I have to give back too. I see myself going to 1 or 2 healthy meetings per week and working with sponsees in the steps outside of meetings, as I already do with a few gals, I love it, it's awesome work. Perhaps that is the role God has assigned me for now, until I grow more through AC fellowship and can handle it better. Thanks again for your help.
Hi working, my home group also has a no cross talk rule in the announcement and the definition explained during the opening. I have taken some things personally in my al-anon group when I first joined and later found out it had nothing to do with me. I have learned to not take it personally unless someone comes to me to clear up a misunderstanding. I used to read into a lot more and now I hand it over to my HP and love the saying it is none of my business what people think of me. We are all a work in progress. It sounds like you are working a great program! Keep up the great work!
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Sending you love and support on your journey always! BreakingFree
Al-Anon/Alateen Family Group Headquarters, Inc. 800-344-2666
" Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional."
"Serenity is when your body and mind are in the same place."
I hear you confusion and concern. It may be helpful to examine your shares. I have been told to save the more intimate details of my life for my sponsor and to share my experience, strength and hope at a meeting.
It was also suggested the Meetings were not dumping grounds for my problems and that my shares should contain hope and tools. My issues can always been addressed after the meeting with chosen members or my sponsor.
"It was also suggested the Meetings were not dumping grounds for my problems and that my shares should contain hope and tools. My issues can always been addressed after the meeting with chosen members or my sponsor."
This makes so much sense to me and it's easy enough to go to Tradition 1, in How Alanon Works page 105 I think it starts really get that everyone has pain and everyone deserves a chance to share. More importantly it's so good to know how to share. I will be honest .. I didn't know this and I struggled with this one for a while .. it's coming.
Hugs P :)
__________________
Stepping onto a brand-new path is difficult, but not more difficult than remaining in a situation, which is not nurturing to the whole woman.- Maya Angelo
Thanks to all of you here who helped me along with my sponsor to see the truth.
My part - my wrong - has been simple: Taking it personally.
There are a lot of sick people in the world who are looking for a way out of their pain, and offering myself up and giving my power away like this is insanity.
I finally see it today. I got in my own way.
There's a reason it's called "taking" it personally.
When I allow others to take my power, it actually hurts them because it doesn't last for long, they will still be faced with their own problems anyway. And it stops me from being of maximum service to God too.
It is imperative that not leave places, but stay and deal with it through prayer until I have a teflon aromor around me for taking things personally.
I hate cross-talk! I know that most of the Al-Anon meetings I attend read a "cross-talk statement" prior to opening the topic. I have never heard an AA meeting read one though (I attend them regularly).
There was a problem of cross-talk in one of my meetings. I asked when the enxt business meeting was so that I could attend and bring the topic up. At that meeting, other members said they'd noticed the problem growing ... others didn't mind that it was occuring. Group Conscious spoke and we have become more vigilant in ending cross-talk on an as needed basis.
I do believe that there are times when cross-talk is actually helpful, but those times are rare. In another of my meetings there is a gal who complains about the same stuff, different day, every week. I have approached her after the meeting more than once to encourage her to "do" something about this on-going problem in her life. Every week she returns with the same problem and always shares. I've spoken with my sponsor, other members, with my HP, and prayed. I now know there will come a time when I will say, out-of-turn and directly to her in a meeting (cross-talk) what needs to be said. I don't know when or what the words will be ... and I don't know if it will help ... I only know that if that time comes and I have done everything else I can do then it will be what it will be.
I also know from attending AA regularly that AA is much more in-your-face than Al-Anon. AA's tend not to beat around any bush at any time. Consider that maybe people are telling you what you are unable or unwilling to see/accept about yourself. If you find their words to hold no truth then do as they say, "take what you like and leave the rest".
hope this helps ... God Bless You
-- Edited by kitilvr on Monday 30th of January 2012 05:35:40 PM
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There are people in your life whom you unknowingly inspire simply by being you.
I did not grow up in the disease. But my mother raised us with some very good advice. It was, "Consider the source." Don't believe everything that people tell you. What is their agenda? Consider the source. Water from a poisened well will hurt you. Hurt people hurt people. Absolutely, don't take it personally.
This little episode in your life has taught us all a lot. Thanks for posting.
I agree completley ,when a chairperson feels the need to reply after I have sharred my feelings . We do not allow crosstalk in our meetings ,the one thing I have always appreciated was no one commenting after a sharring it is a way that we show respect for the way thier feeling ..* cross talk reminds me of pre al anon a coffee pot ash tray in the middle of the kitchen table with everyone telling each of us how to change our lives * hehe . You could offer to chair a meeting on the topic of crosstalk and how it affects you , I am sure you can find some lit in your grapevine on cross talk use it to chair the meeting , it may not change anything but it will cause awareness . which is a good thing and you will feel better for speaking out ..
It always gives me pause when I think about it this way.
Their reactions are about them, and my reactions are about me.
I say it often on here because it's such a favorite quote, but applying "There is nothing good or bad, only thinking makes it so." just really gives me a reality check in these matters.
I've been guilty myself of cross-talking. There's been other times where I feel glad that I recognized my urge to cross talk and kept my mouth shut, instead, thanking HP for holding my tongue. I've been "should-ed" myself, in meetings, too. It certainly grated on me. And then I'd get myself all worked up thinking that I'm wrong in feeing upset by it, or that I should have listened because "the truth hurts"... yadda yadda.
We're all just doing the best we can. I can take my concerns about the behavior to my sponsor and my HP and then let it go from there and live a happy day.
Good stuff Aloha. It's about not letting other people take our power on the INSIDE. There is only so much power in the universe to go around you know, and if we don't let it take our power, the other person will feel there is none to be had. I will say my understanding is way beyond where these other gal's is, and they know that, and they are trying to stop me from having the courage to be myself. It's alcoholic insanity. I do have the Power inside of me though, to reconcile it.
Crosstalk is well defined in our group. In fact we often read and describe exactly what it is for the group especially if there are newcomers so that they know it is not a tradition for which our group practices.
Crosstalk can be very harmful creating an environment in which people dont feel it is a safe place to share.
If I am chairing the face to face meeting, I will stop a person who is sharing if they are judging, criticizing, gossiping, or commenting on another person while they are sharing. If someone cross talks while I am sharing, I will stop and say "lets keep the room safe, no cross talk please."
This process helps keep our group strong so that each and every person can feel they are in a safe place when they share from the heart. Our group is 46 years strong. I want to help keep it that way by gently reminding members (including myself) of our group traditions.
In my alanon meetings we define cross talk as commenting on anyone else's share , you can identify with what is said without the mention of a person by name i n addition to: people speaking out of turn, interrupting someone while they are speaking or giving direct advice to someone in a meeting. There is a custom in many areas to speak only from one's own experience and to avoid giving direct advice or lecturing a group or i
Welcome to MIP butterfly67 - glad you found us and glad you joined in the discussion.
I looked at this post and it is a few years old. It's still a great topic. If I read this correctly, the first poster makes mention of an AA meeting vs. Al-Anon meeting.
From my experience, in AA meetings, cross-talk and direct advice are not discouraged, and are allowed. It is on the Al-Anon side that it's not allowed. I can't speak for ACOA - never been there...
Hope this helps...
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
In Alanon we're cautioned not to interrupt, comment, give feedback or advise concerning what another person is sharing. Our meetings are meant to be a safe place to give voice to our feelings. I can empathize with what you're feeling. Granted we can't change other people but it is part of the chairperson's responsibility to address this as it's happening. Not all chairs are willing to speak up. I have at times addressed it directly in the moment by asking the person to please not comment on my share by referring to the principles of our program - to share without interference or comment from others. I realize we all are in 12 step programs for a reason but those who who regularly crosstalk are disrupting a meeting, diverting the focus to themself and in some cases (those who comment on just about everyone's share) are then whether consciously or unconsciously dominating the meeting. In my humble opinion, when this issue is unaddressed in a meeting, the interests of the group as a whole and each individual member in attendance is sacrificed for the appeasement of one person.
I know you mentioned wanting some sort of lit on this topic in your AA program. I was able to locate this online. Hope it's useful for you and your meeting.
