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this is my take on another board about it being "ok to angry/pissed off/unable to forgive certain evil"
this was my take
i have been reading and praying and of COURSE working the program, asking the SOURCE for wisdom and here is my take on the forgiveness thing
On Wednesday, Dennis Rader, who pleaded guilty in June to 10 charges of first-degree murder — binding, torturing and killing his victims — got 10 consecutive life sentences in a Wichita courtroom.What are people of faith to make of a man who committed such atrocities while claiming to be a Christian? Can he be forgiven? What does justice mean in this case?Rabbi Meir Soloveichik of New York recounts a story from Simon Wiesenthal’s “The Sunflower: On the Possibilities and Limits of Forgiveness,” in which the author, a prisoner in a concentration camp, is summoned to the bedside of a dying Nazi. He wants a Jew — any Jew — to hear his confession of how he helped torture and murder hundreds of Jews. Then he asks to be forgiven.Wiesenthal considers his request. Finally, he walks out of the room, neither condemning nor forgiving him. Did he do the right thing, he wondered? Soloveichik recalls a Hebrew _expression frequently used by Orthodox Jews: “Yemach shemo,” which means “May his name be erased.” Soloveichik calls it the “virtue of hate,” a form of justice.“Hate is not always synonymous with the terribly sinful,” he said.He goes on to note that the Talmud actually states that one is “obligated to hate” (mitzvah lisnoso) a hopelessly wicked person. Soloveichik draws a clear distinction between Jewish and Christian beliefs on forgiveness and justice: “Christians may maintain that no human being is unloved by the God who died on his or her behalf,
but Jews insist that while no human being is denied the chance to become worthy of God’s love, not every human being engages in actions so as to be worthy of that love.
“And those unworthy of divine love do not deserve our love either.”
my perpetrator NEVER EVER confessed or owned what he did to me.....in fact he was PLEASED with his wickedness...
.forcing alcohol down my mothers throat until she became a hopless alcoholic ..he felt that his deviant sexual desires were more important to him than my LIFE....so he did what he did.....NO remourse NO sorrow NO desire to make amends to me......do i forgive?? CAN i forgive???? of course not... HOWEVER....it is MY choice to fill my heart up with LOVE for me than to waste that space on HATE for him....i am living proof that ones does NOT have to forgive his/her perpetrator in order to heal, AFTER i worked out my - INTENSE and ENORMOUS pain/grief/outrage, i came to the point where i could "take MY hands off and allow the hands of God/Karma ON" so in addition to this i WILL not SHALL not insult myself further by focusing him the "freak" and hate when i can focus on ME and love for me...i would rather focus on ME, because i am the worthy one in this equation!!!! .....he was a DISPOSABLE...GARBAGE.....i CHOSE to let God or the Source "carry out the garbage".......rosies take on forgiveness!!!!! AND being righteously pissed off........
The Bible says we are to resist the devil, not tolerate or forgive him. In my book, resisting the devil means resisting evil. That means getting angry enough to not accept evil. But, if a man sincerely asks us to forgive, that we should do. Of course, he still has to deal with HP. That's his own business.
My aunt, whom I listen to, is 84 and in alanon for many years. She says, "The surest way to let someone live in your heart rent free, is not to forgive him." She is usually right.
YOU HAVE HIT THIS FORGIVENESS THING RIGHT ON THE MARK
FORGIVENESS DOES NOT HAVE TO BE VERBAL NOR DOES IT HAVE TO BE DIRECTED TOWARD YOUR PERP
FORGIVENESS CAN BE SOMETHING WE BESTOW UPON OURSELVES...
WHEN WE DECIDE TO NOT ALLOW THE EVIL AND HATRED SATURATE OUR LIVES AND MAKE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO MOVE ON AND ALLOW LOVE AND PEACE OF MIND TO BE OUR TRUE MEANING IN LIFE--WE HAVE IN EFFECT FORGIVEN--WE HAVE GRANTED FORGIVENESS TO OURSELVES
I DO AGREE WITH "TOTO12" THAT IF SOMEONE SINCERELY ASKS FOR FORGIVENESS-THEN WE SHOULD GRANT THAT REQUEST FOR OUR OWN WELL BEING (KEY WORD SINCERELY) ONCE AGAIN FORGIVENESS IS THE SAME AS GRANTING OURSELVES INNER PEACE---THE EVEN MORE IMPORTANT ASPECT OF THIS IS THAT WE CAN ELIMINATE THE FEELINGS OF HATRED AND REVENGE THAT CAN BE THE MOST DESTRUCTIVE TO OUR FUTURE--DO NOT LET HATE OCCUPY ANY SPACE IN YOUR HEART AS IT ONLY DESTROYS FROM WITHIN...
your aunt is a smart lady.....i am working THROUGH my intense grief/outrage so i can and i have told my HP i am WILLING to "take my hands OFF him and to allow HP's hands ON" that is all i am being "prompted" to do.....one must ASK forgiveness....my perp did not.....but for ME/ MY peace, i am working to fill up my heart with love for me, and NOT hate for him......18 months of venting/ crying/ screaming my pain......i HAVE come to the point where i am READY to REALLY take my hands off him/ it and focus on me......thanks for share, appreciate it.....rosie
YOU>>>>>>>>>DO NOT LET HATE OCCUPY ANY SPACE IN YOUR HEART AS IT ONLY DESTROYS FROM WITHIN...
ROSIE>>>>>>oh in the beginning, i had this bucket (my heart) and it had the blackest/ dirtiest water you could imagine....and than i got into recovery and EACH DAY, i keep pouring clean water (self love-the steps, et al) onto it....the water each day gets a teeny bit lighter from my pouring the clean water of this program onto it.....my FOCUS my hearts DESIRE is to get rid of him ENTIRELY......little by little i think of myself more/ loving myself more/ focusing on me more.....i go into "cycles of grief" like now, where i may vent a bit more....but it is ALL for ME..it is all to help ME.....what i wouldn't GIVE to be able to press "fast forward" on my "dvd of healing"....but i cannot...i have to grunt out the recovery work...the steps/ meetings/ literature et al, but i am worth it....i want him GONE....REALLY gone....THANK you two for your responses......i agree when one SINCERELY asks for forgiveness one MUST than agree to give him/her over to their god and release them.....but you know even still...the poor victim has to work through his/her intense pain/outrage FIRST before this can happen....it IS comming for me, but i STILLL have grief/outrage to work out.....bless both of you for responsign to me.....rosie
I agree, forgiveness is for US, not for them. We do it to stop carrying the hate and anger around with us It does not mean that we condon behaviour, it does not mean that we will ever trust that person again, it just means that we give up the bitterness. I believe the Bible also says something about forgiving - not seven times, and not seventy times, but seventy times seven times.
i don't buy the bible 100% but i THOUGHT the 70 times 7 is IF / WHEN the offender ---1...repenst....2 makes amends to victim.....i read somewhere that God says, one is REQUIRED to confess/repent in order to be forgiven....
anyway, i work my anger out ..i work my grief out so i CAN FINALLY take my hands off him.....i told my inner child, YES, we will acknowledge the anger and work it out discharge it as needed, but the MAIN focus is gonna HAS to be on ME......i want to fill my heart with love for me......NOT hate for him.......
i know we are not compelled to forgive unrepentent evil.....but we ARE compelled to "turn it over" soon as we can.......thanks guys, rosie
##RICHARD A.......WHEN WE DECIDE TO NOT ALLOW THE EVIL AND HATRED SATURATE OUR LIVES AND MAKE THE CONSCIOUS DECISION TO MOVE ON AND ALLOW LOVE AND PEACE OF MIND TO BE OUR TRUE MEANING IN LIFE--WE HAVE IN EFFECT FORGIVEN--WE HAVE GRANTED FORGIVENESS TO OURSELVES
####ROSIE.....richard THIS is beautiful....this is the SECOND time i am reading this and it is SO right on!!!! the "conscious decision to move on and allow love........" that is what i am praying about...asking HP to let me get this anger DISCHARGED so i can move on......i see it happening for me, but i have my "bad anger days--grief bad days too" i don't want to be addicted to anger...so its like "ok, lets work this out MORE meetings MORE literature MORE prayer MORE shares...whatEVER it takes lets DO it" so i CAN "move on" i crave love and peace and i am willing to do what EVER i have to do......"forgiveness to ourselves" SO true....and believe it or not, i had to forgive me for the abuse i did to me as a result of my own self loathing....when i did my steps 8/9 it was mostly to me/ inner child/ and God.....i had to forgive me , that made me REALLY sad, when during step 4 i saw how MUCH i perpetuated the abuse.......thanks again for this "gem of wisdom"..rosie
AFTER READING YOUR POSTS I HAVE TO SAY YOU SOUND LIKE YOU ARE EXPENDING HUGE AMOUNTS OF ENERGY ON IDENTIFYING ALL THE THROW AWAY ITEMS IN YOUR INNER SELF--IT SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE CLEANING OUT A GARAGE AFTER MANY YEARS OF COLLECTING JUNK-I THINK YOU HAVE GOT A GOOD HANDLE ON WHERE YOU ARE AND MORE IMPORTANTLY WHERE YOU WANT TO GO...KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK AND STAY TOUGH...SOON THAT GARAGE WILL BE SPOTLESS AND YOU THAN CAN FILL IT WITH ALL NEW THINGS
KEEP READING AND TALKING AND SHARING-ALL OF THIS BUILDS KNOWLEDGE AND KNOWLEDGE IS POWER---POWER TO GIVE YOU STRENGTH AND COURAGE TO COMPLETE YOUR GOAL OF INNER PEACE
RICHARD.........IT SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE CLEANING OUT A GARAGE AFTER MANY YEARS OF COLLECTING JUNK-I THINK YOU HAVE GOT A GOOD HANDLE ON WHERE YOU ARE AND MORE IMPORTANTLY WHERE YOU WANT TO GO...KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK AND STAY TOUGH...SOON THAT GARAGE WILL BE SPOTLESS AND YOU THAN CAN FILL IT WITH ALL NEW THINGS
ROSIE..........yep, i got the back hoe and its FIRED UP!!!!! thank you, richard, my garage is getting better thanks to this wonderful program...i had NO help NOTHING until 18 months ago when i was considering suicide and a friend drug me into 12 steps...NOW i want to live and live WELL!!!!! peace and prayers, rosie
hey you all...know what my sponser suggested to me??????
i was telling her that i felt my anger was my frustration at all the old horrible messeges he programmed me with WHILE he was in my bedroom....all the negative things about ME/ my character etc.
well she told me to make a cassette tape telling myself in loving tones, like "i was innocent i AM innocent...that was HIS inventory...i am GOOD" and to tell my self "i love me no matter WHAT...i am OK just the way i am......" good stuff....
i fired up the cassette and the loving words just poured out of me....there IS a mechanism in me that loves me...and i DO believe it is more powerful than this self abuser that is NOT a part of me, not the REAL me...so i am making my cassette and "giving it hell" wish me luck that i can learn to love me/ and thus get rid of the anger/frustration with myself over the self defeater that keeps comming up....i know these patterns are fighting me and they are fighting me HARD, making my life miserable so i am going to "turn up the heat on them" with the cassette....and that thing is going to play all the time, while i am bathing/ resting/ eating and my sponser said it will sink into my sub mind and i will overwrite those awful tapes....and i will be RID of him and his BS evil.........it makes good sense to make your "own affirmations" to tailor make them to suit MY needs/ issues........wish me luck.....peace/ rosie
