The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
I've always wanted to post on boards like this, but until now, haven't had the guts to do so. I was married briefly to an alcoholic from 1995-1997. Since that time, I've dated here and there, with two long-term relationships that ended due to moves related to careers. However, about six months ago I started dating a man who I fell in love with a few months after dating. Things were great for the first two months ~ and then I realized that the oftentimes he invited me over on the days he played golf, during which he drank to the point of becoming drunk. Most of the other times we've been together, he's either been drinking, or planned on drinking. I can count only a few times we've been together and he wasn't drinking prior to us being together (5 times, actually) ~ outside of work, that is, since we work together (although in different buildings, so we don't see each other at work much). Sometimes (too many times, I think) he invites me over just for sex, and I can tell he's been drinking because his eyes are red and swollen. The night before last, I went over to his house, and there were two beer cans by his bed. Last night he called and he kept hanging up on me, saying that I was "being mean," when I wasn't at all. He hung up on me once after he asked, "Are you recording this call?" We talked for hours last night, and he hung up on me probably 10 times, over nothing at all (in my opinion). I miscarried his child this past week, and the last hang up was on MY part, after he said "you didn't ever care about our child, did you?" This, after crying non-stop, dry-heaving, and almost losing my mind after learning of the miscarriage, and then having to go through a painfrul D&C to remove tissue from my uterus. And to top it off, he had the gall to ask me if I had gotten an abortion, asked me if it was his (I've never cheated on anyone in my entire life!) and nearly inisisted that it couldn't have been because we used protection.
Long-story short, these are questions he'd never ask me if he was sober. His verbal behavior is not even close to this when he's sober.
Although I'm a psychologist, I know very little about alcohol abuse or alcoholism, as far as research and treatment go (besides AA). I purposefully avoided those classes in grad school simply because it wasn't my interest. My brief marriage ended because my then-husband was an alcoholic, and I didn't want to raise our children in an environment like that (not that he was either emotionallly or physically abusive). I just didn't want them to grow up seeing someone addicted to alcohol.
I know I'm rambling, but I've never felt in love with someone who has an alcohol problem. (I wasn't truly in love with my ex-husband). I'm madly in love with the man I'm with, but will never tolerate being in a long-term relationship with an alcoholic.
So what should people in my situation do? Give an ultimatum? Leave and not look back? Stage an intervention? Talk to him about it?
I'm so lost...
I thought that was odd. His personality changes like you wouldn't believe when he's drinking.
For me, the most important thing was to finally sit down and begin to look at why I fell in love with the alcoholics and addicts, and do something to change that pattern.
Until I was willing to understand what part I played in these relationships, I was doomed to repeat the same pattern over and over for many years. Each relationship I was in I rationalized it was 'different', even though it was always with a dysfunctional, emotionally unavailable man.
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"If a dog will not come to you after having looked you in the face, you should go home and examine your conscience." - Woodrow Wilson
I really feel for you! I'm so sorry about your miscarrage and the whole messy situation. Of course you are feeling "emotionally twisted," I would be an emotional train wreck!
Being in love with an alcoholic is so hard - I've been trying to cope with that challenge myself for the last few years. I've found this board helpful as well as face to face meetings because it always helps to know that your not alone.
I remember well the insane phone calls, the justification, and the fabrication of problems, having been on both sides of that coin at one time or another. For the active alcoholic there is nothing better than being able to slam down the phone saying "he/she doesn't understand me better go have a drink." At least that has been my experience.
There is unfortunately no quick fix or formula for action as to how to approach this relationship going forward should you choose to do so. For me it helped to talk to people about my situation, to write down my feelings and ideas and to pray about it. I know that it may not seem like the answer you are looking for. I know I really wanted someone to tell me what to do. Clarity comes with time. Best of luck to you! Keep checking in! Erin
Can't advise you on what to do, as it is different for everybody. However, there are some things that you might want to think about.
Any game plan that is based on wishful thinking is ddomed to give you a lot of unhappiness. Love does not conquer all, when it comes to alcoholism. He will find a way to twist every situation into an excuse and justification for his drinking, and will probably find a way to blame you for it - blaming is almost as much a symptom of this disease as the drinking is.
So, look at what you *really* have got, and see if you can live with it. Alanon can help you find the tools to protect yourself from the worst ravages of his drinking, but it cannot make them go away. It cannot stop him from drinking - nothing you do can.
The crazy angry drunk is not some weird aberration that will never appear again - this is a big part of who he is. If you feel that you could never be happy with the whole man - drunk and sober - then you might want to think very seriously about leaving.
One thing alanon can help you with, no matter if you decide to stay or leave, is to work on your own part of this - in fact, that is mostly what alanon is for.
I am going to tell you something that you do not want to hear, so brace yourself!
Ready.
You can NOT stop his drinking. Ultimatums will not stop him. You leaving will not stop him. Interventions will not stop him. Talking will not stop him. Nothing will stop him until he is ready to stop, and you can not make him ready to stop.
I am not trying to be mean or condescending. Now is the time to look at this problem with clarity and decide what you really want. My suggestion would be to read back over lots of old posts on this forum. Be honest that you and this man are NO DIFFERENT than any of the rest of us. Then you will know what you are getting yourself into by staying with him. You can make an informed decision if you can truely be honest with yourself.
Whatever you decide to do, keep coming back here. You are among friends who understand.
Welcome,
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~Jen~
"When you come to the edge of all you know you must believe in one of two things... there will be earth on which to stand or you will be given wings." ~Unknown
I suppose when one asks a question, one expects an answer. Here's mine:
I would not waste any time wondering why I took up with this man. I would run fast, and not look back. This person is sure trouble, and I wouldn't want it.
Your decision is entirely yours to make. Good luck. COme back often.
Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
So what should people in my situation do? Give an ultimatum? Leave and not look back? Stage an intervention? Talk to him about it?
I personally would RUN.
This is a group of people who love their alcoholics/addicts, sober or not.
My guess is that none of us, knowing what the future would inevitably bring, would have continued the relationship.
Jen is right, the worst thing you could do to yourself is "fool" yourself into thinking HE is different than other alcoholics or that YOU have special abilities to stop him or "endure" him or "cope" with him.
In good conscience I couldn't NOT warn you. Why choose an obvious hell on earth if you don't have to?
Besides all that . . . welcome to Alanon :D . If it seems like we are all "vaguely" warning you, well, we are. But you are welcome here, and you are encouraged to ask any question, say a million "yes, but . . " statements, and we are definitely here for you if you decide to continue the relationship with him. Lord knows you will NEED Alanon like a life preserver then.
You deserve a good life, a healthy marraige to bring your children into, a spouse who isn't a Jekyl and Hyde drama. Take care hon. Kim
I agree with the running. If you do have sex use protection. I just went through five miscarriages (they could be caused by his drinking) I raise my alone (ah works on the other coast). It's not for everyone. I do hate the fact that the father of my children is an alcoholic and you do NOT want to have your child grow up with one as a father....TRUST ME! They do not "love" the child, they will not spend time with the child, they do not keep promises, they pass out when taking care of the child, you would have to split visitations and not know what the drunk is doing with your child or who is around your child, you never know if child support will be paid, then you wait for the day to tell your child that their father is dead from alcoholism...........do you see a pattern? Is this what you want? You'll get over being in love and.........how can you love a man who is an alcoholic? How do you even know who he really is? Your a psychologist and they haven't taught you about alcoholism??? I don't understand that. It's a huge part of the human population and they didn't teach that? Ya lost me there. ;) I'm really glad that you posted here because you sound like you are in love with the "family unit" idea and you can NOT have that with an alcoholic. I would suggest running and finding a man where there is a slight chance of a family. Alcholics are REALLY good at "baiting" you. (I'm sure that's a term you are familiar with) They will say what you want to hear, they will give you a chase if that's what you want. He will make you feel as if you are lucky to have him. Typical abuse behavior (again, I'm sure you know about abusers and victims) so you should see the signs. I hope you find the strength to get out.
FYI, if you had a miscarriage you would have had a D&E which is an abortion. A D&E is Dialation and Evacuation and it takes out tissue, the other only cleans out the uterus and takes out NO tissue and that one you would not have been pg. They usually do a D&C from having an infection or STD or precancerous cells. I know it's only terminology and it sucks to have to say it was a D&E (abortion) but that's what they do after a miscarriage if there was a baby or sac or fetal pole. No matter you don't need a man to rub it in. Good luck and I hope you come back. ^i^
Thank you all so much for the kind words, the welcome, and the insight....I really appreciate it...and sure as all get-out, needed it.
Tenderheart ~ the funny thing is, I'm not typically prone to choosing emotionally unavailable men who abuse alcohol and/or are addicted to it. This is the second time I've been with an alcoholic in 10 years, so I am grateful to the first one (my ex-husband) for being successful at teaching me how to recognize possible warning signs. So meeting and having a relationship with 2 alcoholics over a 20 year span of time isn't a pattern ~ but at least I can now be very, very aware of one, should it develop. That's not even a thought that crossed my mind, so thank you so, so much!
I think that having been married to an alcoholic in the past (even though it was so brief) is why I'm cognizant of the warning signs. I remember before I left him, I found beer bottles hidden in strange places (under the couch, in the pantry, on top of the refridgerator, etc.) And since my ex never drank in front of me (and hid his alcohol) I never knew for the longest time. I remember getting on the internet and looking up "signs of alcoholism." So now, not on a real conscious level, I look for the signs. Not purposefully I don't think, though. The signs in this relationship just started to appear within a couple of months.
Erin ~ I had to giggle at the "insane phone calls" comment, because they were oh-my-gawd-insane! I couldn't believe the things he was saying. And when you said that "there is nothing better than being able to slam down the phone and say 'he/she doesn't understand me, better go have a drink" ~ well that's just exactly what I think he was doing, because with each return phone call, he sounded more and more intoxicated. When I said that it was nice to hear his new music in the background, he said, "What the *hell* is that supposed to mean?" And after he accused me of not caring about having lost a child, I hung up the phone, and unplugged it. Haven't talked to him since, and don't plan on it. :)
Lin0606 ~ I understand about the game plan based on wishful thinking. That's exactly what I was doing. I was thinking, "Maybe he's not an alcoholic. Maybe he just drinks during golf, and when golfing season is over, he stops." I also thought, "Well, if he wants this relationship to work, and he knows I'm against being in a relationship with someone who's an alcoholic (because he knows my ex is an alcoholic), maybe he'll just stop." Come on. I know better. I was married to an alcoholic for two years, gave him an ultimatum (he chose the bottle) and I left, and never looked back. Best thing I ever did for myself and our children! I can't believe I was foolish enough to think that way again! And he *is* blaming me ~ or actually the miscarriage on his intensified drinking, and increased frequency of drinking. Slurred words of "I could've had a daughter...or a son...or...I can't believe you didn't tell me right away." So Lin, what' I've *really* got is an alcoholic that I don't want, and I'm very sad about that. I can't handle the hot-then-cold treatment and the yo-yo-ness of it all. Yet, the "if only he wasn't an alcoholic" it would be so great line-of-thinking crosses my mind and makes me sad. I wish I knew sooner, but I know I should only look forward, and not backward.
Jenn ~ You told me exactly what I needed to hear. So thank you! Now is the time (and I believe there's a reason for the timing being so soon into our relationship) to look at the situation clearly and microscopically, and decide what I want. And what I don't want. And precisely what I don't want is to be in a relationship with an alcoholic. Period. Been there. Done that. And I have that option and control to just not look back. Friday I spent the entire afternoon reading old love notes (emails) at work. That was painful. I want to get the courage to delete them all. Or at least maybe the courage to go back, and read them over again with a more mindful eye and *then* delete them.
Diva ~ I love your blunt answer. *Love* it. And it's exactly the way I was (am) leaning. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.
Kim ~ I do see a future that, if I stayed with this man, would be wrought with sadness, despair, desperation and just plain ole' heartache. I'm worth more than that. I've lived it once, and it taught me never to do it again. It's hard when you've fallen in love, but I think the anger (regardless of how unhealthy this may appear), will help drive me toward a safer, happier future. I've been fine on my own, and will be again. I just hope I can keep this line of thinking and feeling going through the tough parts. Those reminiscing parts...
Friendofyours ~ Since my ex-husband is an alcoholic, our children and I are already living what you described (physical presence with him, but not emotional presence, he's passed out when having them but the courts keep ordering that I send them back for visitation whenever I call it quits due to health/safety issues, etc.). And *obviously* that's not the kind of life I would have chosen for my children. They deserve far better. And yes, I'm a psychologist and "they" (if you're referring to my professors) didn't teach me about alcoholism. I'm in a vastly different specialized field of psychology and besides learning that the abuse of drugs and alcohol is behavior elicited to escape and/or avoid painful thoughts and/orfeelings, I know next to nothing academically about addiction. *Life* taught me what very little I do know. I wish I knew more, which is why I'm going to go through some old posts on this site and learn...
And I'm really not in love with the "family unit" idea. I already have a wonderful family ~ me, my two kids, and a great extended family. And yeah, this guy I was most recently involved with certainly did bait me, and I fell hard. I really melted at the "Hi baby's" and "C'mere babe, it'll all be okay." And of course his gorgeous smile, and the dreamy eyes I got lost in.
FYI ~ I'm quite sure I had a D&C (at least that's what the doctor called it) and they're typically done when the fetus is 6-12 weeks old. A D&E is done during the second trimester.
Thank you all again for your kindness....You've helped more than you'll ever know.
I have had five miscarriages and I know what is what. If your doctor called it a D&C then there was no fetus or sac. I was four weeks on two and eight weeks on the others. You were misinformed. I was only trying to give you the proper information. No need to be defensive.
I saw your question this afternoon and came back now to reply. Enough has been written and I only add that you see the red flags of something to be very concerned about. In hindsight, I can now see the red flags I missed over 25 years ago so trust your gut for sure!! I agree with the others.
I too have had miscarriages both early and late trimesters..... do remember that besides the emotionally twisted things being discussed here, your body needs all the TLC as after a full pregnancy and hormones are raging. No matter whether this pg was expected or planned, a miscarrage causes grief for the loss of a dream or hope. I am sorry for your loss and all the other stresses you are dealing with at the same time. Take very good care of yourself right now and in the future too. blessings~~
hugs, ddub
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"Choices are the hinges of destiny." Pythagoras You can't change the past, but you can change the future.
RE: new here, and feeling emotionally twisted... Hi Ddub ~ Thanks for replying. I can't believe how supportive the people on this board are! Gosh, if I only I was a bit computer saavy 14 years ago when I first met my ex-husband. Then, I'd have been able to read, and read, and learn, and learn. I'm newbie-ishly amazed at how much I have in common with people here. And that's a really good feeling. The thread topics and posts here are wonderfully insightful and helpful.
A couple of months ago, I went to an Al-anon meeting. I didn't know how to find one, so I just googled "Al-anon" and did some digging. I was actually trying to find an Al-ateen meeting in my area for my son, but since there wasn't anything listed, I figured I'd go to an Al-anon meeting, and ask there ~ as well as deal with my own anger, bitterness, and sadness, I still have toward my ex, my guilty wish that our children had a better father, and the mixed feelings I have about them continually going to see him. So I went to the meeting, sat there for an hour and a half, and listened as everyone talked about one of the twelve steps. It took me about a half an hour to realize that it was actually an AA meeting, and not an Al-anon meeting. My first clue was the second person who began speaking, and started with, "Hello, my name is so-and-so, and I'm an alcoholic." So I sat and listened, hanging on each of everyone's words. And at the end of the meeting, after everyone else had spoken, and since I didn't say anything, everyone looked at me as if to say, "Your turn." I was embarrassed to say anything because 1) I thought that as soon as I realized it was an AA meeting, I should have left for privacy purposes, and 2) If was afraid that if I said, "Oh, *I'm* not an alcoholic, I just looked up this meeting on the internet and thought it was an Al-anon meeting" that people would say (or think), "Well, well, *she'll* be back when she's ready."
Long story longer, it turns out that there is no Al-anon meeting in my area, yet there are about 8 AA meetings that go on throughout the week at various locations. This made me wonder, "Well where do the families of the AA folks go?" I'm still looking.
Anyhoo, I got off track.
Thanks for encouraging me to go with my gut. My gut instinct is usually correct (but not always). In this case, I'm pretty sure it is. The only time I feel like that instinct *isn't* correct is when I'm crying. And my tears tell me, "everything can be worked out if you both really, really want it to." And then I become rational and logical again, and starting thinking more clearly, and know that that's a bunch of bologna. I know this will pass.
The odd open AA meeting is not a bad thing - I find they really help to keep compassion in there. The A is not doing all of this to hurt you, even though that often is the end result. They aren't haviing any fun with it either, though it sometimes looks like they are.
My vote is run, never speak to him again, avoid him at all costs and NEVER look back! We aren't supposed to give advice, you're a psychologist, so you understand the whole it has to come from within you thing. We have all been through living with an alcoholic or addict of some kind and my advice to you is to sit and read this as if client just told you all this and what would you advise them to do? We all love our alcoholics but we have to love ourselves first!
i can't believe that i'm still feeling so sad over this. i'm crying as i type this and it came out of nowhere ~ no trigger memory, nothing.
i've moved on...ran quickly just as all of your words of wisdom guided me to ~ even took a nice long vacation ~ a beautiful spot on the atlantic where i went surfing, sunbathed, swam and shopped and just enjoyed myself day in and day out...and it didn't bother me that i went alone....it was a last minute thing ~ i bought a plane ticket to the shore, made some other reservations and in three hours, i was there...enjoying it all...and i hardly thought of him the whole time...just once or twice...but i was really okay....and has been, pretty much, until now...
and here i am, blubbering like a fool...knowing full well that what's best for me (and for my future) is a life *without* him...it makes perfect sense, doesn't it? i was in a position that luckily, after only 6 months, i learned of his alcoholism, did some research, and headed for the highway ~ quickly...so many people aren't that lucky, are they?
but when i think of him, my eyes fill with tears and i feel such sadness that i can't even explain it. and for goodness sake's i was only with him for such a short period of time....not a year, or two, or five, or ten or twenty-five....i should be breaking my damn arm patting myself on the back and saying "good girl, you did the right thing," instead of tear-staining this blouse i've got on.
and yet i miss him so much...i just don't get it...someone asked what i would tell a client in the same situation....and what i would tell that client (if i was in the addictions field) is *exactly* what you all have said to me....exactly those words...
is this maybe just a weak moment? just an out-of-the-blue feeling of the woulda/coulda/shoulda's? the tears falling because i'm remembering his face, his smile, his "Hi Baby's" that made me melt each time i heard them? how long will this hurt? forever? even just a little? will i forget him? when will his memory fade to just a distant one? a real faded one that i can barely see when squinting really, really hard? will that ever happen?
right now if he called me and offered to come over, or asked me to come over to his house, i would say, "yes," knowing damn well that that would be one of the most foolish things i could do. and i know i'm smarter than that, i just don't know if i'm stronger than that...
maybe tomorrow, when i read over this post, i'll think, "what we're you thinking, girl?"
Oh sweetie, it would be hard and just get harder the more time you had kept investing in something you have decided you don't want.
It's been a long time since I felt that pain of break up but I do remember. You will grieve and need to and all the cycles of grief. I think it is the death of hope, dreams and also the familiarity of what is known in a relationship vs the unknown of new ones someday. Easy does it and be gentle with yourself (but strong too to stick with your decisions when needed). You are so worth something better.
I am so glad you got away for some shore time. Keep coming here to post and share. You are not alone.
hugs, ddub
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"Choices are the hinges of destiny." Pythagoras You can't change the past, but you can change the future.
