The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
What are your feelings on someone who stays with an alcoholic even though they have no ties? Do you think the sickness has taken them and they just don't see what they are doing? How long do you try to help these people? How would you nicely tell them what they are doing? You can post it here or pm me with advice. Thanks.
I would (honestly) say it's none of my damn business what they choose to do, and go back to living my own life, and worrying about the decisions and things that I need to have influence upon. Anything more than that smells of "should", and I try hard to not "should" on anyone else.
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Hi FOY, I honestly believe it is not for me to say. For myself, if I am undecided on something going on in my life, I am slowly trying to wait and give myself time to listen to God's will for me. If it is with someone close to me (like for me, my mother), I am slowly learning that her life is hers. She deals with the consequences of her own decisions, and I try to keep on my side of the street. When I am triggered by her, I try to repeat over and over in my head, that God loves her as he loves me. Just the way we are. This is VERY new for me, but it feels so much better when I keep things in that persepctive as opposed to judging or feeling judged, or over reacting.
I believe that we all come to our own awareness of where we are at and how things are affecting us -- each individually. There is no way we can say exactly what that person has invested in a relationship. It's judgemental for us to say we can understand because someone has X amount of years in or they have children or for any other reason thus aproving in our own minds their reason for staying but being baffled because we don't see a reason for another.
It's not for us to say. All we can do is encourage and support those we love, share this program and let them come to their own awareness in their own time. To me, trying to tell someone what is wrong usually make a person more defensive with their reasoning to stay..."It's really not that bad" "You don't really know him" "It's not alway like this" -- this only feeds their denial and pushes you out. It's one reason people shy away from telling anyone what is going on -- they know that people are going to tell them they should leave.
Of course this isn't healthy. I wish there were a quick and easy answer. I just know that until a person wants to step out of denial, look at what is real, accept that the situation is not good/Toxic then nothing I can say to them is going to wake them up -- it will mostly likely push them away.
What my sponsor did for me was ask me if I heard what I was saying. Unitl I did I was stuck where I was. I'm grateful she continued to listen and eventually I can to see I was accepting unacceptable behavior, I was allowing behavior, and that became my norm. It is very sick, whether you have kids, years into the marraige etc.
I dont' think its my business either. I also don't think its cookie cutter for anyone. There are many many many ties in a relationship. Some of them are not obvious. I'm had relaitonships of 3 weeks where I was bonded. I've had other relationships of years where I was not bonded. Who can say and judge for anyone else. I get really really tired of others judging me and insisting they know better for me. I also get tired of being told to help the A when I have nothing left to give. I think Al anon is about learning to listen without judgement and to empathise. There is no room for shoulda coulda woulda.
What is right for one person is not right for the next~~~should a person stay or should they go~~~how many chances are too many~~~what IS the last straw? All those need to be answered by the individual.
If it is common knowledge that addicts/alcoholics need to hit their bottom before they find some sort of recovery, that leaves an uncertain timeframe for the partner to be alone in this relationship. What is the value of your time here on Earth? It could be next week, next year, or the next decade before the A makes progress. Regardless if we practice the Al-anon program or not, the decision is the A's to make.
Meanwhile, we work our program. Those that stay with the active A (practicing alcoholic or one in denial) can work their program, and make progress. Can you stay with an active A and be joyous, happy, free and serene? It has been suggested that it could happen, therefore, don't close the lid on the idea (or the hope).
I am not of that opinion. I believe that healthy relationships evolve/revolve on honest/open communication, similar beliefs and ideals, and a Genuine want to be present/loved/respected and to progress as a couple. I do not believe these and other healthy standards can be present with active alcoholism/denial. (my definition of active denial is the same as alcoholism, whether they are drinking or not (dry drunk))
My intention is to stir the pot, a bit. It is my opinion that we need to GENUINELY look at some of these things and put the FEAR of looking at them away.
Love you, family. cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
I have often felt in this position because my A is my boyfriend, not my husband, and we have no kids. Therefore I don't have any "ties" supposedly with him. I am lucky enough to have family and friends who don't judge me and instead love me and support whatever I decide to do. I am well aware that he will always be an alcoholic and that the future holds no guarantees.
There are soo many different situations. I don't know if I would be able to stay if he was in denial about being an alcoholic, but the fact that he is open about it and is trying is ok for ME right now. I don't believe anyone telling me what to do or giving me advice about this would do any good. From my experience, giving anyone relationship advice or telling them not to be with someone often has the opposite effect!
The best thing anyone can do- and that I can do for others- is to love them and be there for them, and help them to be strong enough so that when their life starts to make them unhappy, they have the strength to change it themselves.
It is important to remember that some people are able to live fairly happily with their A, using tools such as detachment. Every situation is different.
I am assuming that by 'ties' you mean children, maybe owning a house together, that type of thing. I could see a situation where it is exactly the LACK of those ties that makes it possible to stay. If the only person who could be harmed is myself, I can take more chances, put up with the occasional bad time, whereas I may not want to expose children to it. If I know that if I have to, I can walk out the door tomorrow, without having to go through legal procedures to do so, it may be easier to take things one day at a time.
Nobody knows what goes on in a relationship but the people in it. It is up to them to judge the pros and cons, and weigh if it is worth it.
It all boils down to the FACT we do not know enough about the other person's situation to make conclusions. They are only our own conclusions, based on the information we've been given. We see through the glass but darkly, when looking at another person's life.
And besides, we have enough of our own problems to deal with. It is hubris to believe we know what's best for another. From the info we've gleaned from them, we still only have a partial picture, and the advice given will inevitably miss the mark because we just don't know.
I at one time was extremely judgmental about people living screwed up lives. I spent a lot of time, to my present shame, gossiping and critisizing. It sure kept me from focussing on ME, and realizing my own life was just as screwed up and getting screwier by the day.
In my experience, the more I judged and critisized others for their choices or lives, the WORSE my screwy life was. Not good.
Having the neighbor lady ask me why in the heck I stayed (what's WRONG with you!!) opened my eyes to how that judgementalism and critisism was active inside me toward myself. How can we do it so freely to others and not beat ourselves to death with it at the same time??
The one exception is violence, threats to harm or kill, or sexual abuse. If it is indeed factual, I would make this one exception and come right out with it. Otherwise, it is none of my business. What IS my business is to support, encourage, and share with my Alanon brothers and sisters, learn from them, listen to them, and begin to take what I've learned into the world of others not in the program, and treat them with the same dignity and respect with which I've been treated, and have learned to give to others.
Yes, great post, you aren't alone in wondering these things at all FOY! Take care :) Kim
Pre-Alanon, I would have given out advice like a Pez dispenser, whether it was asked for or not. "How can you let someone treat you that way. You need to have more self-respect...blah, blah, blah."
Now that I'm trying to follow the program, I realize that it's none of my business. It wasn't my business before, but if nothing else, I at least learned that lesson. It is such an individual decision to stay or to go. I was not married to the A; we were a 'couple' for a while, but friends for the last ten years. After 19 years, he left in July. A lot of time invested, but not a lot of passion or emotion. Loved him as a friend, and am still trying to do that, even though the insanity is taking him on a downward spiral and the fallout isn't pleasant. I know that I worry about him, but when I read so many posts from people who still love or are still in love with their A, I've come to understand just how heart-breaking this disease can be.
When you ask 'do you think the sickness has taken them?', I'd have to say yes - the sickness has taken all of us. The difference is that we decided to not let the sickness keep us. It's the same story that we use to explain an alcoholic's recovery - hitting bottom. We Alanoners had to hit bottom as well before we reached for recovery, so whether you stay in the relationship or not, as long as you are not deceiving yourself about the truth of the situation, you have that possibility of serenity right in front of you.
Sorry such a long response, but what a thought-provoking question!
Take care, Marion
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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit ("Bidden or not bidden, God is present") - Erasmus
I totally agree with the "none of my business" aspect. Relationship advice is best when it comes from within, as our true hearts/feelings speak.
Perhaps some of you can live with the A~~I know some of you do, and do the best you can. Some A's have found program, and actually use it. That is a tremendous. On the flip side, I will give you a quote:
Letting go of a loved one is one of the hardest things in life; yet, it is only in Letting Go that we may move on to find happiness.
Do you think that's true??
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
I believe letting go you can for sure find happiness. I'm glad you honestly replied. Things to think about. I like that. Good job MIP family. :) Thank you. mwah
Ps. In my situation, I thank God that I got out. It's been the most painful thing I've ever had to endure, but it saved my life. I have no regrets except for my children having to be part of it all.
