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Someone said this at a meeting tonight. Because if you don't forgive, you can't detatch because you'll keep getting sucked back in. It made sense to me. Another good reason to forgive. My problem is my motive for forgiving. Last year when my A was relapsing I had so much compassion for him and his disease. I was angry for sure but it seemed so simple to me that his disease was out of control and I felt really bad for him and the pain he was causing our kids. I knew he felt bad, he told me he felt bad. I had compassion. This year, he left us for another woman and I have felt nothing but anger and hate towards him and her. I can't even figure out how to begin to forgive what he has done. I was thinking about it on the way home from the meeting and I thought "he is still sick, mentally ill, can't I feel compassion for that? leads me to forgivness?" And for a moment that seemed like it might work, until I had to check my motives. My motive would be to feel superior to him, to treat him condesendingly, to see him as in the middle of another failed attempt at sobriety, to see him as pathetic and there I am right back to anger.
And where does remorse and regrett play into grief and letting go? I am missing him so very much. I am thinking that I made the wrong choice. But the thing is he didn't want me. I keep thinking that I had some control over our marriage. I did everything I could and I am not a crackheads wife. But in the last few months I could have said and done things differently to get our relationship back. But so could he. He has been cheating on me,binging on crack and having episodes closer and closer together. I tried, I didn't ask for much in return. In the end all I asked for was honesty, and respect. I got neither so I did what I had to do. Leave, divorce. He is sick and I can't make him well, he doesn't want me. He doesn't love me, if he ever really did...who knows. It's hard because I keep thinking "if only I had said the right thing when he asked....." But I told him the truth. Now I wish I had lied and tried again. I don't know, That would be crazy as he was arrested the other day for the credit card thing with my mom. I didn't trust him before, I would never trust him again, but I am lonley and I miss him. The him who loved me and whom I loved. The man I married, had 3 kids with, a home with. I am sad and mad tonight.
WHat about my motives....what do y'all think? To achieve forgivness I have to have compassion and then I can detatch fully and not get sucked back in.....
Good question. I know I didn't have to forgive my A before detatching. I still have a lot of forgiving to do. Perhaps this was this particular womans path to detatchment, we all get there in different ways?
For me it wasn't something I could think out logically. It sort of just happened, like a shot to the heart. But I'd been pulling back from my A for years, slowly, just in the last year since the latest relapse has it been intense. My A is also an extremely unpleasant person at times, and there were more of those times than not in the last year. Demanding, provocative and "negative attention" seeking like a very angry nine year old. He enjoyed telling me he thinks there is a dead goose/chicken/goat in the yard, and when I ran out, saw nothing, and went back in to ask him "WHERE?" he would smile a little and act like he didn't hear me until I repeated myself.
This is a literal example, and actually I'm embarassed to put it out there. What kind of a door mat would live with a person that mean for one second??? I lived with this in my head for way, way too long.
At the same time, he begs me to stay with him and has violated the RO twice and manipulated it a few times by now I'm sure. He's completely crazy. And I was nuts too, but not so nuts that I didn't detatch. I swear if I hadn't I would have broken down. Detatchment to me was life and death in other words. The life and death stuff comes easier :D .
Let "detatchment" come to you in it's own time. You are certainly very willing to do it, you want to do it. Let it happen, and stay open. I don't think you can force concepts like this to just appear like a pill (gosh wouldn't that be the End of Alanon!). The way it works is when the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
You are getting real deep there, girl :D I too get analytical and it just doesn't work with some of this stuff. Hope I'm making sense.
I know what you are saying-- but I also understand what the person at your meeting is trying to say. Being detached means not letting the disease of A run your life-- you run your life with the help of your HP. If you are still actively angry with your A, it is really really hard to get anywhere near serenity. I believe there is a very wide space between active anger and forgiveness--- it is a journey. Just realize that holding onto your anger hurts you more than it helps the situation-- and it probably even makes it all worse.
I have had to forgive much but I know that I need forgiveness too. I hate to get religious on you but I really like the idea of he who is without sin casting the first stone. I'm not going to try to pick up anymore stones (maybe a few pebbles once in a while though) take care Jeanne
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In the long run the pessimist may be proved right, but the optimist has a better time on the trip.- Daniel L. Reardon
Detachment to me does not mean to cut them out of my life . to me it means understanding that this disease is running thier life but it dosent have to run mine. with understanding some of the anger went away . When I accepted that I had a part in this mess and took responsibiltiy for my part not really for what I did but for what I didn't do . I allowed unexceptable behavior for years , I never said don't talk to me that way etc . I just let it all happen . Until I learned to detach with understanding and compassion I went on every trip he went on emotionally . this is his disease I had to step aside and allow him the dignity to do life the way he chose. I got on with my life . It's ok to be angry talk it out with others who understand what your going thru and learn to let it go. Like it or not we pass this anger onto our children and God knows they don't deserve that . Work this prog to the best of your ability and regardless of what he does YOU will be okay .
Hi dear, good question, you made my birdbrain try to think.
I believe it is that we learn they are addicts and their behaviors are the symptoms of the disease. But we don't "believe" it yet.
It takes time to really believe it.
I use the same old analogy. People KNOW smoking is bad. But they will cont. until they really believe it.
I knew sugar stuff was bad, I knew it was a bad craving. But now I believe it. Also it makes it so much easier to stop. I want to stop.
Maybe that is part of when they go to rehab on their own, it works becuz they believe in quitting.
So sad your family has been torn apart. Of course you miss and love him. He is a captive by the addict disease.
It is so confusing to be in love with someone who is not walking around in his body anymore. It is like a sci fi movie.
No wonder we cannot "get it" very easily.
I miss my A sometimes too, but there is no question, he is not him anymore and I miss my A who died. The person he is, is not the clean, good looking man i knew all my life.
Your A's disaease did some horrible things, is doing horrible things. It is up to you if you want to forgive him. I am past forgiveness. I just don't care about the past anymore.
Dang it seems you are being too hard on yourself to me! I vote detach first and forgive later. Maybe accept first, detach next and forgive later. Accept the fact that the whole thing took place and is real regardless of who did what and how did it happen or not happen and what you did, didn't do, could have done or not done and write it all down on a piece of paper, tear it up into little tiny pieces and suck the whole mess up with your vacuum cleaner. Or a re-entry proof "God Box" might work; anything where you can't take the problem back again. Your spirit, heat, mind, emotions and body need the rest. If your HP intends that someday you will get it all figured out you're HP will notify you. Slogan time. "Let go and Let God", "Turn it over" etc.
Detach - move out of the proximity of the disease, mind, body, spirit and emotions. Cut yourself loose from it or cut it loose from you. Make something else (yourself and your sanity) more important than anything else including the past. This is your past or is this your present? If you don't detatch it is your future. "Let it go" before or after you throw the hughest hissy fit tantrum you can put together either with or without your sponsor and when you are done...you're done. You may have to do this more than once so get creative!
Forgive. Release the other people and the hold they have on you. Release what they did and the hurt that it caused you. Of course the other people includes the you that you thought did the wrong thing. I have learned that forgiveness exists in unconditional love and unconditional love is HP's will and character. Just my understanding. I learned to remove conditions from the way I loved others and the number of times I had to use forgiveness diminished. Forgiving for me isn't saying that what happened was okay. Forgiveness for me is saying to myself it no longer matters...it's no longer weight that holds me back or down.
I remember being where you are caught at the moment and feeling what you are feeling and saying what you have said. It felt sooo sick and ugly. It spirialed around and around and around until it just couldn't matter anymore. When I forgave them I loss fear and at the same time I got the freedom to go leave the problem and go live my life again.
It hurt so bad until it didn't anymore. I feel with you.
Very honest post. I remember being where you are at too, and I agree with Jerry, you are expecting a lot from yourself. Your post, to me, is saying I'm still in a lot of pain and I'm looking at everything to see if I can release myself from it.
Part of it we just have to walk thru to get to the other side. I love how you worked out your motives, you know there is a circular pattern to your thinking that brings you right back to the same thinking. That is your awareness, the next thing is acceptance, maybe it is the acceptance that you haven't made the wisest choices-- I don't know-- but when you can accept where you are, and look at the reasons you are there, then you can move on to action. Which could be forgiveness. For me it was.
Detachment is a tool. It's not something you get by forgiving. Though it is easier to detach from someone you aren't angry with. We learn to detach for our own sanity, it really doesn't have to do with forgiveness, I mean the A can be a royal pain in the Arse and making my day miserable with his antics and I can detatch and say I can remove myself from this, I won't give him control over me, I have a day worth living no matter what he does with his, I choose to detach from him and do what's best for me.
I am blown away by your honesty of how you felt superior to him. I will say that for me, when I got to the point that I knew forgiveness would release me from my A it had more to do with the power I thought I had than it did with me "forgiving" him. I was letting go of one last illusion of power and control.
For me, I thought I had to forgive before detaching from my ex. I told my ex that I forgave him and was sorry for all the problems that I had caused - I'll bet he and his paramour had a field day on that!
Later, after getting into Al-Anon, I realized that I had said the words but I hadn't really forgiven. I also learned that because my self-esteem was so low, that I had always blamed everything on myself whether or not I did something wrong! The only thing I did by forgiving before I detached, was to make a great big fool of myself, lol. Then, I had to forgive myself!!!
That was my experience and might not be anyone else's.
Now, I detach as quickly as I can, with love if I can. Later, I ask my HP, who I call God, to show me when it's time to forgive.
For me, detaching means protecting myself from someone's dysfunction by setting boundaries including no contact) depending on the situation.
Forgiveness is much harder for me than detachment and I put a lot of thought and prayer into it.
I would say sometimes the opposite is true, you have to detach to forgive. You have to say to yourself I DON"T CARE ABOUT THIS ANYMORE!!! And then every time you think about it occupy your mind with something else. That works for me and it's been almost a year now!
I sorta agree with Carolinagirl - I feel as long as I'm with him and his patterns continue or he's still not to some form of stability - how can I forgive him and still detach??? I feel like I'll be sucked in again at this point if I let everything he's done go. But then I've been through alot with AH - his sporatic patterns are very unpredictable. I love him and show him love - but the memories of all the times he's hurt me are always in the back of my mind - no matter what I say or how I want to feel - I feel I won't be able to forgive him without detaching completely (divorce) or unless he makes a 180 degree turnaround from what his life has been in the past.
2nd guessing is pretty hard on us. I dont' know that I could have done, said, known any different. I've been through some immensely hard times with the A. Some of those I made worse by my actions, some I didn't. Some of the things he did when I wasn't around were not too great either. Look at being homless and starving?
So why beat yourself up more?
I know I have missed the A a great deal. I also know I dont' miss his behavior.
Be kind to yourself and be nice to yourself that is one way to detach. Put the focus on you.
(((serendipity))) Here is what it says in the book, How Al Anon Works:
"Resentment will do nothing except tear us apart inside. No one ever found serenity through hatred. No one ever truly recovered from the effects of alcoholism by harboring anger or fear, or by holding on to grudges.... We begin to detach when we identify the disease of alcoholism as the cause of the behavior and recognize that our ongoing struggle with unpleasant memories is an effect of that disease. We, too, must find within us compassion for the alcoholic who suffered from this terrible illness....
Yet some of us balk at the idea of adopting such an attitude toward people who, in the past, may have caused us great physical, emotional, financial, or spiritual harm. If we find their behavior totally reprehensible, why should we bother to look for a place within ourselves that can relate to them with love? Aren't some things simply unforgivable?
To answer these questions, we must ask another: What is the purpose of our recovery? If we are truly in pursuit of serenity...we must improve the ways we interact with others. This doesn't mean that we close our eyes to the unacceptable or tolerate the intolerable.... It simply means that we cultivate the ability to look beneath the surface. By shifting our focus away from the objectionable behavior and looking more deeply, we recognize a part of every human being that remain untouched by disease, the part of each of us that deserves unconditional love and respect regardless of the circumstances... This is what forgiveness is all about. We don't forgive the actions....Instead, we forgive when we acknowledge our common humanity with everyone... In this spirit, we can even forgive ourselves....
Forgiveness is no favor. We do it for no one but ourselves. We simply pay too high a price when we refuse to forgive. Lingering resentments are like acid eating away at us.... Can we afford to perpetuate such self-destructiveness? ....Although we may despise what others have done, if we keep in mind that everything we are now trying to do has the goal of healing us, we are bound to decide that the best thing we can do for ourselves is to forgive."
Let this be your motive, Serendipity I hope this helps. Love, DeeDee
