The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Please folks... let'd do our best to share E,S, & H with each other, talk about our experiences, what may have worked (or not worked) for us in similar situations.... but please, please, please stop short of advising people whether or not they should stay or go in their relationships with their A's.
We need to be cognizant of the fact that we know VERY little of the overall picture, and that we cannot possibly know what is in the best interest of the people involved, no matter how good our intentions may be. Even in situations of abuse - the reality is, we really do not know enough about individual situations to advise people to go, stay, or anything else.
As individuals get to know each other on here, if you feel so inclined, feel free to private message one another with advice, etc., but please refrain from using this board, with global messages, to advise people to leave (or stay) with their spouses.
We need to remember that each and every one of us is in a different spot in our respective recoveries, and we often could (unintentionally, I hope) insinuate that "if we are strong, we will leave". Once again, we simply do not have enough information to make an informed decision on these matters, and such major decisions are well outside of our bounds and/or expertise.
We all have our personal opinions on such matters..... I believe that it is imperative that we keep this forum a place where we can all share openly, without judgement.
Yours in recovery, Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Great reminder for us all--thank you for the post!! If my best thinking got me where I am today, why would I think that I have the answers for anyone else??
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Do not be anxious about tomorrow; tomorrow will look after itself. The Bible, from Courage to Change, p.138
Thanks for your share. Another perspective is in my case I don't know what to do so I look to others to make up my mind for me. This means that I don't have a plan for myself and that is what gets me into trouble with my AHsober.
Hi Canadianguy, I agree with your post and thought the same thing when I was reading some of the other posts. However, a question (b/c I'm learning)... You stated that even in a situation where there is abuse that we should not advise someone to leave. Could you expound on that, as I cannot think of any good reason to stay in an abusive situation. Thanks!
Thanks, SLS, for clarifying. I get it. We might ask the person to consider his or her options and weigh the pros & cons, but not advise, as individuals must make their own decisions.
Leaving a marriage is very very complicated and seldom easy and seldom fixes the problem.
People say "leave", "you deserve better". What is "better"? Poverty? Working night and day at low paying jobs so your children are raised by others in daycare of left alone? Sometimes this leave children open to all kinds of abuse, just by different people.
One woman told me that she stayed with her alcholic because she figured out that at least by being with her husband she could keep the kids safe from his drunk driving. If they divorced and he got visitation the kids would be with him without her there, and he would be free to drink and drive with them at will, she could not exactly stalk him to see what he was doing.
These are tough choices that mom's make all of the time.
I had a friend who was a lawyer, whose husband was an alcholic. The first time he did something abusive she dumped him like a hot potatoe, because she COULD! She had top notch medical coverage, did not need his income, and already had a trusted friend watching her kids, a nanny. She had the house before the marriage and so just made him leave, because she could.
Most women I have ever known who are financially able to leave do and those who stay have reasons for staying and they usually don't include liking the abuse, sigh.
Tom is right, that is why Alanon is against giving advice, it is very sick to try to run someone else's life rather than your own.
If someone shares they are being physically abused then direct them to their local police station or battered womans shelter, share RESOURCES then leave the choice up to them.
Please respect the choices of others and don't judge them. Life is not easy for women on their own, espeically if they have kids and then you still have to deal with the alcoholic anyway with legal hearings and custody disputes, child support, visitation, etc. then they often get an alcoholic girlfriend and you then have two sick addicts around your kids when you are not around to protect them. On top of all of that is the issue of money, jobs, child care, etc..
I had a friend in college who lost custody of her children because she had to work. Her alcoholic husband was a high functioning professional who made a really good income. He eventually remarried and had a stay at home wife. He bought a lovely new home and petitioned for full custody of their three young children and GOT IT. The judge looks at what is in the best interest of the children, NOT the Mom! The judge decided that being raised by a stay at home stepmom in a loving clean home was better for the children then lowrate ghetto day cares with high staff turnover while the mom went to college night and day to get a better job. She was very very bitter and regretted following advice to leave him when he was not physically abusive and her life was not in danger. With no child support and eventually no spousal support and being a college student, she could only afford a one room apartment and so the kids did not even want to visit her. It was very sad.
Yes, this is an extreme case, but it happens, much more often than people think.
Let people make their own decisons about what is intolerable to them. Give support, not pressure.
And like Tom said, we don't always know all of the details. I dont' either. Maybe the woman I knew in college had a drug problem? Or beat the kids? We can't assume that just because someone is in alanon they are a total victim and saint and the alcholic is the sole villian. We don't know what goes on in people's homes, we only hear one side of things here.
Let's speak alanon here...not give advice at all, much LESS pressure people to take it.
We can also share what we did, the choices we made and why we made them, and how we feel about that later. I don't know much about YOUR situation, but I do know my own, and maybe my experience can help you make your own choices.
I am 27 years married to my a husband, who's nearly reached one years sobriety, many of our problems stem from my inhalbility to understand his illness, I find it very difficult to separate his reality from mine, now this is soooooo comlpicated, because different situations call for different solutions, it's true I ache inside for him to see things my way,sometimes, I guess he must ache inside because I can't see thing's his way. Sometimes the trouble comes because my love for him causes me to step in and mediate when it's not my place to, and I'm sorry if this sounds judgmentle but I just see him heap pain after pain upon himself, it's just horrible and that's the time when I wish there was a warning sign a light might flash to say, ot owa things are going iffy here, just step back leave well alone and it will come to pass, but I still can't tell, and when I can, more often than not, it's too late, and old behaviour has come back.
We've just had our first big set back since I started the programme, I reacted appaulingly, it's made me feel crap, I hit back with old resentment,s funny though because I actually don't feel like I have any now, but when alchoholic behavior reared it's ugly head again, wam we were both as bad as eachother, so easily.
I beat myself up for a couple of day's and felt that knot in the stomache again, and thought hell, what can I do now, well I am not going to say sorry because it might happen again, am I sorry? ermmmmm I don't honestly know, but what I do know is, I am responsible for my part in it, it's not the end of the world, I messed up, and so now I'm going to try and make ammends to my Husband by just being the best I can, sorry is easy to say but changing my attitudes and behaviour takes a lot more strength and will power, if I can maintain that, it will mean more to him than an empty sorry.
((canadianguy)) "thanks so much," for the reminder/s ...of how to try to focus with gentle love and caring....support (and/or as we) give our own experience strength and hope (es&h.) Have a Beautiful DaY!! (((((((BiGHuG))))))))
I know I'm one to be reminded :( It's hard for me because I had three small children and did it alone. I have to disagree with a previous poster however, just because your children have to go to a daycare does not mean that they will be abused or even gives them an opportunity to be abused. Where I was it was so HARD to see that things could get better and I remember all of my friends telling me to leave and thinking "it's not that easy" but the crazy part was it IS that easy. I was just unwilling to take a chance of the unknown. But then again it also drove me crazy to just get "hugs" or "stay strong" in response to every post. I wanted a bit more substance then just the regular "we're here for you" so I try to post with a bit more substance. I will take note Canadian guy ;)
"But then again it also drove me crazy to just get "hugs" or "stay strong" in response to every post. I wanted a bit more substance then just the regular "we're here for you" so I try to post with a bit more substance."
I don't know how I could put it any better than "Friendofyours" has. I have quoted her above. If I give advice, it comes from a true caring about the individual posting. I give each person credit for having enough sense to, "Take what you like and leave the rest." Am I operating against the principals of AlAnon? Seems so. But cold and shallow cookie cutter responses, combined with a hug really offer little in the way of hope to a person who is desperately hurting, and perhaps even in physical danger. I could not live with myself if physical harm came to someone here, and I had not said, "Get out!" I can offer hugs 'til the world looks level. Is that what AlAnon wants?
In conclusion, I respect the opinions of everyone here. I know we all mean well; those who "advise" and those who do not. It is not up to me to fix the world; that I know.
Considering the title of your post, Canadianguy, is this a "Stay vs. leave" issue?
Love and best wishes to all,
Diva
-- Edited by Diva at 10:16, 2007-03-07
-- Edited by Diva at 10:36, 2007-03-07
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Thanks Canadian Guy. I always enjoy receiving those gentle reminders that I am here to share my e,s, & h. To offer suggestions, options and mostly to let them know they are not alone.
I am not here to "fix" anyone but me. Therefore, I can't advise you what you need to do to "fix" you or your life. For me that would be "playing God" again and that doesn't work for me any more.
Most of us walk in here with a self-esteem lower than whale scum. If we listen to the e,s, & h that is shared by others, seek guidance from our HP, continue to work on ourselves - we grow, we learn, we develop into a healthier person. We are able to make those decisions on our own. This feeds our self-esteem.
For me, how can I become more confident in myself, if other people are still telling what I should and shouldn't do?
That is just my understanding of recovery - As always, take what you like & leave the rest.
Wishing each of you a day filled with serenity, Rita
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No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
But cold and shallow cookie cutter responses, combined with a hug really offer little in the way of hope to a person who is desperately hurting, and perhaps even in physical danger.
I strongly disagree with this statement and am offended by the tone. Personally, my posts (which I try to keep true to the Al-Anon message) are never intended to be "cold and shallow." Everytime I try to share my E, S and H, I revisit where I was, what got me there and where I am now--it is not done lightly!!
I too have been (and at time continue to be) "desperately hurting," but I would have walked out of my first meeting if everyone had told me to throw the bum out (and there was abuse and I am financially able to support myself). All I needed to hear (and all I was capable of hearing at that time) was that I was not alone, that they accepted me for who I was, and that I was welcome at that meeting no matter what. It wasn't until much later that I was able to make decisions for myself about what was right for me in my situation.
So, I will continue to urge others to take care of themselves (be safe), to keep coming back, and to listen to the shares that they hear in this and other rooms, because with faith and by doing the footwork, their HP will show them to where they need to be in their own time (and not mine).
-- Edited by SLS at 10:45, 2007-03-07
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Do not be anxious about tomorrow; tomorrow will look after itself. The Bible, from Courage to Change, p.138
I think there are ways to give your experience, strength and hope without crossing the line of giving advice. I myself have asked for help here on numerous occasions on this very topic. For the most part, I have gotten wonderfully supportive responses. One response in particular, was to "be true to yourself" from none other than canadian guy. I strongly believe that the way things are said makes such a difference. At least it does for me.
Diva, never said anyone else was "playing God" - was just sharing how I feel about myself giving advice. I have worn many "hats" in my life - the "God" hat, the "Judge" hat, the "Caretaker" hat, the "Rescuer", the "Savior of the World" hat, the "Superwoman" hat and many, many more.
Today, in recovery, I feel like I can show concern, care, support & let the person know they have options without telling them what they "have to" do. I feel this shows respect for the person and let them make their own choices.
Rita
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No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
We may not know everyone's circumstances, but that's where another of the slogans comes in: "Take what you like and leave the rest."
That slogan does not give us free reign to say hurtful or inappropriate things without thought to how others may be affected by them. It is not a "get out of jail free" card.
AlAnoners need to understand that concept in order to allow their thoughts to encompass a wider perspective. There we have it. Al Anon's greatest fear..."thoughts to encompass a wider perspective."
This seems to be a theme--that folks in Al-Anon are "cookie-cutter," close-minded, unable to think for themselves--that we are in need of someone to show us "the light" and what is wrong with the Program. Again, I disagree with you and would say that I am offended but....
I don't much care if you are offended by something I say, as long as I am true to my commitment to care about those who really need help.
I will keep that in mind.
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Do not be anxious about tomorrow; tomorrow will look after itself. The Bible, from Courage to Change, p.138
Hypothetical situation: A woman posts that her husband is physically abusive to her whenever he drinks and wants to know what to do. She is also new to Al-Anon...
Wrong response: Get out of there!
Right response: Let's talk about your options. What do you see as being options for you?
In discussing options, leaving the guy will definitely come up. However, discussing it as an option, instead of as advice, still brings out the same information but empowers the individual to make her own decisions, which in the long run makes her stronger.
"But then again it also drove me crazy to just get "hugs" or "stay strong" in response to every post. I wanted a bit more substance then just the regular "we're here for you" so I try to post with a bit more substance."
I sooo get this. And I don't believe Diva meant to offend. In fact, I think it shows some empathy for others based on her own experiences.
When my brother's addiction became apparent, my mother and I attended some meetings. Our goal was to find a solution to the problem. We wanted people to give us some guidance and discuss with us possible options. After the meetings we felt let down, and confused as to what was appropriate to say and what was not. We didn't feel comfortable in those meetings asking questions, which is exactly what we needed to do. And while we felt empathy was given to us, what we wanted was direction.
Then we found a professional who welcomed our questions and gave us straight answers to some of our questions. At other times he would say, "One of your options is..." "A resource you might consider is..." My mother now attends Al-Anon regularly and has a sponser who she calls when she questions how to handle a situation (as she's dealing with codependency), and that now helps her a great deal, too.
People just starting Al-Anon don't always understand what it's about and tend to expect someone to lead them through their situation, to give them answers. I can empathize with these people.
I don't doubt the sincerity and love present in any of the responses to this post. I do not take offense from anyone, because there is none to be had unless I go looking for it. Which I choose not to do. Just people expressing their opinions, including canadianguys original post. His opinion. No more or less important than anyone else's. We each are trying to work our own programs in our own ways.
I have to tell you, that I have been in meetings both online and in person where something similiar to what Diva had happen at her ftf meeting happened. Someone cried out for help and was basically ignored. Absolutely there are appropriate "program" responses to a situation like that. For me, the chairperson totally ignoring someone saying they are possibly going to go home and kill themselves without a second thought and continuing on with a "meeting as usual" is unacceptable to me, and is not My Al-anon! In my own ftf meetings we have formats, if someone new comes in and a need arises, we can suspend the format temporarily to address an issue. At least, as in online meetings, if I am chairing I will ask someone else in the room whom I know has some experience to take the person into pm and talk to them outside the meeting. This could happen in the real world just as easily. Someone could take the person outside, or at least tell them, we have to finish this meeting, but please stay afterwards so we can talk to you some more.
Anyhow, what virj says is dead on right for me too, "People don't always understand what it (al-anon) is about" especially newcomers. If I were suicidal in an alanon meeting for the first time, and spilled my guts and no one did anymore than say "thank you" and move on to the next person...well, I probably wouldnt go back either. And I might be dead.
Let's all remember the big picture here. We are each in our own place. We choose how to work our programs. We do need to be true to ourselves. We don't have to own anyone else's stuff. We are all here to help each other. We are all here to grow. We are all here to love.
I guess the stay vs leave option is always going to hard for many of us. Those who have left or did not leave will feel defensive. One thing I urge people who come in with tremendous difficulties is to have some al anon under their belt before they make huge decisions. I do know this room is a huge huge source of relief for me. Sometimes people will hit me over the head with the "leave him" response. They can, that's their prerogative but I have to say its not the least bit helpful to me at any time. At the same time its my life, my plan b and I'm here because I want a life not to be dictated to. I never ever fear that I will come here and someone will say why didn't you leave him already! Some people may insinuate that and that's also their prerogative but they don't actually "know": my life from the few words I post here on and off so they don't get to say what I do, how I do it and when I do it to their satisfaction.
I feel like this is one of the few resources in my life where I am not judged on a general basis. Where I can share I still care about the A but I feel like I can't be with him anymore and people won't chastise, insist, judge or even feel sorry for me. That in itself is healing.
I don't think there is a standard response to do when someone comes in here desperate. I've certainly been desperate, suicidal, in crisis many a time. I've spoken to people on this board many many times in chat, on the phone, in private message. I'd have to say that all of them did what they could and that's a tremendous gift in itself. At the same time no one but no one could take over my situation, make it better or find the map out. I feel lin love with someone who has a deep substance abuse problem. He has many many other issues, debt, a mother who could care less, sickness and more. They are all absolutely overwhelming. I have my own issues, my own disabilities, my own codependency to deal with too. All the insistence in the world of what I needed to do, could do, might do helps but nothing can pretty much change that.
I come here not to have someone "save" me or insist I do something or tell me that I have not done enough but to look at what others do, how they live, thrive, recover. I really don't put it on anyone else to make my path for me or tell me the "best" way I can do this. After all al anon is about me taking charge of my life not about me handing it over to someone else to take care of and to advise me how to make my next move. Yes I certainly fashion my own plan b on what others have done, how they did it, when they did it but at the end of the day its my plan b and its my responsibility not this board's or even al anon's.
I don't think personally there is a "shoulda, coulda, woulda" way out or to stay in a relationship with the A. For me the tools help. Nevertheless for me being with an active A is still a huge problem. Long term I think its a really hard thing to do and for me these days I do have the chance to think long term. Long term I don't want to be dealing with the a's messes day in day out..... Short term to look at my options the tools help. That's my esh. Its not the only way to work this program. For me having options helps. If I stop arguing with the A, detach, focus on my issues, I buy options. If I don't I buy resentments.
So for me it isn't leave/stay/go/ go crazy or do what I did and only do what I say. For me its about being able to go somewhere not be judged, not to be told that one isn't measuring up to someone else's program of recovery (that is be judged and found defective) its about me having options and learning from others.
Personally as someone whose been told to "leave" till I am sick of the word I would not "do" that to someone else. At the same time I understand that for some people it is that "simple" for me it isn't. There is a whole long process for some of us in leaving and some people have used the "leave" mandate as an excuse to bully, judge and chastise me. In the past I've let people do that. In the present I don't.
I can and do say to people they have options, can come here and hear how others "do" it that is live in the meantime. For me personally that is the lifesaver, not the coulda woulda shoulda stuff but the esh of everyday.
If someone is actively suicidal I certainly give them resources. I don't ignore them. At the same time I'm in recovery I am not in every chat room, meeting and trying to structure how others respond. I can only work on how I respond and that is at any time to the best of my capabilities. I can't give/promise to give or even think about giving any more than that. That's one of the reasons I am here in the first place.
I believe Canadian Guy was speaking as a message board moderator, when he posted the reminder that start this debate. It was a reminder folks to Al-Anon principles.
As a former message board moderator here and on other boards, sometimes we have to jump in and send messages to the group out of our responsibility to the position we agreed to accept in our Al-Anon journey.
He pointed no fingers. If you are upset by the post, maybe it is because we saw ourselves as guilty.
I know I saw myself as guilty, right away.
Josey
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Julianne - It's best to move on. You cannot look back in anger in life. It's too short
Let me just clarify, and then I'll move on, that I totally support Al-Anon. It's helped my mother tremendously in making and maintaining healthy choices.
As is human nature, I believe, when we've been doing something for a while, we tend to forget what it's like to be a beginner. And when we encounter beginners, I think we sometimes see their situation from where weare, instead of where we were.
I mean this as only a gentle reminder, that when we respond to newcomers to Al-Anon, we should try to consider the situation from their perspective - remembering what it was like to feel desperate, confused, hopeless.
I think that's what Diva was referring to when she spoke about the hugs. I remember when I so desperately wanted help concerning my brother's addiction, it actually annoyed me when someone would physically hug me. That might sound a little weird to some of you, but looking back, it was because the only thing I cared about was solving the problem. At that point, I was so scared for him, I wasn't really thinking about myself. And that was my viewpoint when I attended my first meeting. So, when I didn't get the answers I wanted, I was disappointed. Of course now I understand, but as a beginner, I didn't.
So, when I talk to newcomers, I encourage them to get educated about the disease, find out what resources are available, and use Al-Anon to help them better cope and regain a sense of control over their own lives.
"Progress for the greatest number depends upon unity.... you may not like all of us but you'll come to love us in a very special way, as we already love you."
With that said, let's get back to the origal post. Can I suggest that each of us take that post and put it thru the process to see if it applies to us personally? Let's look inward, keep it in mind as we reply to others. And if it doesn't apply to us, well, QTip (quit taking it personally).
The original post wasn't pointing a finger -- it was a reminder. Take it for what it is. Thank you Canadianguy for the reminder and for caring.
A very interesting post and replies. I tend to agree with Diva's perspective. First of all, as someone who has taught classes on Domestic Violence, I could not in good conscience not tell them to get out if their safety is in jepordy. Sorry, can't do it. Never have never will. Having said that, I will whole heartily encourage the person to seek their recovery, offer them ESH in whatever form they choose. We are all human beings here, and to judge another person's perspective or take on a situation is not only cruel, but definitely goes against the tenants IMHO of a support group. I too have had a bad experience with my local f2f group. It turned my blood cold when I was not offered the love and support I so desperately needed at that time. But I was very lucky to have found this board. It showed me that we can all come here, vent, love and support each other in any way we choose. I like the fact that we don't sugar coat things. I like it when another member here can kick my behind. That's me. "Take what you like and leave the rest." is the best piece of advice out there.
Love and blessings to you all.
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Kitty (whose only advice is not to get locked in a garage when the neighbors have gone on vacation! )
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
I may be too late with this reply but wanted to mention this--- when my husband went to rehab, his therapists kept telling me "to take care of myself." I just did not get it at the time--I was so worried about what was going to happen later, would he stay sober? etc, etc. I kept thinking, how can I take care of myself if I don't know what the future will bring??
I have learned so much these last 2 years. I am taking care of myself, I've protected myself financially, my A is sober, working a program, but he has had some relapses and I know he may have more---but I know I will be ok even if he does. I don't know if we will be together forever-- and I don't care. I know some people---outside of alanon----do not understand why I've stayed with my husband. I feel no need to explain to them--I'm doing what's best for myself and our children.
I finally understand that we can be happy if they stop drinking and even if they don't.
I know when my A was at his worst many people told me to just "boot" him out. We have 3 small children and even though I am capable of working I would have had to work a full and part time job just to pay the bills and buy food. Then where would my kids be??? With strangers raising them, and maybe I could see them on weekends when I wasn't working. Then I too thought about his getting visitation The only place my A had to go was his mother's, she too is also an A and addict...much worse than my husband. So I had the worry about either of them driving the kids somewhere plus who would be caring for the kids while they were there???? No way! It helped enormously that I refused to let my A in the house if he were drinking or using so I didn't have that worry about the kids seeing that first hand. If he had visitation I would have no control over what they were seeing. So there were many reasons I stayed/let him stay. For me it was safer and financially more feasable (sp), even though he was doing what he was, we still had food, heat, lights, etc and I was still able to be a stay at home mom. Now I am ever more grateful I took others advice as "opinions". My A is in recovery and I am grateful I stuck it out. My kids still have their daddy and I am getting my husband back. Many times its easy to tell someone to leave, but we don't know all the details of the others situation. I also look at it this way....if I tell someone to leave or to stay and they follow that advice and it turns out to be wrong.....who are they gonna come looking for? I don't want that responsibility, and that responsibility is not my place. I sure didn't want someone telling me what I should do with my relationship so I certainly am not going to do it to another. Everyone needs to figure out the best choice for themselves, if it turns out to be a wrong decision then they have just had a learning experience that they can grow from.
When I share I try to make sure I make the point that what I am saying is either what I did for ME in a similar situation or that what I am saying is only my opinion and they need to take some time to think about what they really want and then go from there.
love and caring....support (and/or as we) give our own 
experience strength and hope (es&h.)
HuG))))))))
)
The only place my A had to go was his mother's, she too is also an A and addict...much worse than my husband. So I had the worry about either of them driving the kids somewhere plus who would be caring for the kids while they were there???? No way! It helped enormously that I refused to let my A in the house if he were drinking or using so I didn't have that worry about the kids seeing that first hand. If he had visitation I would have no control over what they were seeing. So there were many reasons I stayed/let him stay. For me it was safer and financially more feasable (sp), even though he was doing what he was, we still had food, heat, lights, etc and I was still able to be a stay at home mom. Now I am ever more grateful I took others advice as "opinions". My A is in recovery and I am grateful I stuck it out. My kids still have their daddy and I am getting my husband back. Many times its easy to tell someone to leave, but we don't know all the details of the others situation. I also look at it this way....if I tell someone to leave or to stay and they follow that advice and it turns out to be wrong.....who are they gonna come looking for? 
I don't want that responsibility, and that responsibility is not my place. I sure didn't want someone telling me what I should do with my relationship so I certainly am not going to do it to another. Everyone needs to figure out the best choice for themselves, if it turns out to be a wrong decision then they have just had a learning experience that they can grow from.