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I know this is obvious and I actually accepted alcoholism as a disease along time ago, I just have a hard time applying it to him. He has hep C and cancer. I know that those are diseases and he suffers from them. Funny, they don't really come up very much. Anyway, doesn't he choose to drink? Last night he didn't drink all day, then slipped out at midnight. He wanted to do it, he thought about it and went out of his way to do it. I guess I'm struggling because it seems like labeling his alcoholism as a disease is excusing behavior that he should be responsible for. I have an eating disorder. It should be ackowledged as a disease just like alcoholism. I sincerely approached him about this and explained why I can't have certain foods in the house. I try very hard to control my eating, a huge part of this is not to allow problem foods into my home. But he still gets them and brings them home. He says I have no willpower, that I am responsible for my actions regardless of his own behavior. I know that might have gotten a little off the topic and personal, it's just hard for me to seperate what's what sometimes. I have been doing some reading and most say that I HAVE TO ACCEPT ALCOHOLISM AS A DISEASE if I ever want to do anything about anything. When we found out he had cancer, we got it treated. I can't make him get his alcoholism treated. There was no issue, it was like..cancer..ok do what the doctor says. Alcoholism...just shut up and leave him alone. When he was recovering from surgery, he was really irritable and mean. I knew he was suffering and was very tolerant and patient. What was the behavior and what was the cancer I don't know. Now that he is actively drinking do I just smile and be patient and tolerant as he tries to tear us all apart? I put up with his irritability and abuse for a long time and he wasn't drinking, now that he is, I find it more unbearable. Just trying to figure what's what. Jamie
-- Edited by RainyJamie at 14:39, 2007-02-04
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I'm like a pinch of tea...put me in hot water and see how strong I can be.
I know you will get a lot more replies to this from people who know a lot more about the subject than I do. But this is just my take on the situation and how I have had to approach it in my world.
I do look at alcoholism and addiction as a disease. It has to be treated as a disease. But if they choose not to treat it, then they tear families apart, they eventually die. But some of them look at the cure to addiction as worse than the disease. It is horrible to go through detox, and live the rest of their lives actively seeking not to drink. It is hard work.They have a compulsion to drink and use drugs that I don't think we can even come close to understanding. Now this is just my opinion on the subject and how I have chosen to look at the addicts in my life. I have to step back and try not to think about my a's quite so much. They cannot be the center of my life again. Yes I love them, but I have to have my own life to stay sane. That is hard work also. I do understand what you are saying though. Sometimes it is hard to seperate them.
Stay strong friend. I understand where you are coming from.
Is alcoholism really a disease? Excellent question. For me the answer is yes. Even before I became aware of the disease concept, I knew that there were "alcoholics". Maybe I didnt understand the whys of it, maybe I always thought that if they really loved me enough, loved themself enough, whatever....that they could stop drinking. I can choose not to drink. And it doesnt take much effort. And I can choose to have one or two drinks and stop, with no effort.
The person who was in my life that had the drinking problem could not make that choice. And I watched her make herself so sick and miserable. I would see her the next day hating herself and making those promises they all do, I will never do that again. Then I would watch her do it all over again..and again, and again and again.
So some part of me understood that she couldnt really control it herself.
There is another issue involved in Alcoholism that goes way beyond the drinking. And I have taken to thinking of it as a parasite inside of them. The parasite that lives off of them. This is the disease. The disease causes them to have a whole host of feelings that varies from person to person....self loathing, fear, no self esteem, emptiness...(sound familiar) and they drink to get away from those feelings. The drink makes them feel safe. It makes them feel powerful. It takes away the fear. That parasitic disease in them wants to be fed, with alcohol, drugs, sex, gambling or whatever that particular parasite prefers!
I would go so far, and remember all of this is just my opinion, as to say the parasite in them that needs to drink would gladly tell their host to get treated for cancer just so it can continue to feed! If the hosts dies where does that leave the parasite? Cancer is a disease of the body. Alcoholism (aside from the physically addicted ones) is a disease of the mind.
Now having focused wayyyyyy too much on "them" , lets look at us.
You asked "Now that he is actively drinking do I just smile and be patient and tolerant as he tries to tear us all apart?
My answer to that is a most infatic No!!! We absolutely do not have to just "smile" while they do what they do.
What can we do? The answer to that for me is to work this program....hard! Remember to focus on myself. If I don't like the things going on in my life, I can change them. It takes courage. It takes patience with myself. I have to work on me to get me to the place where I understand what I want, what I need, what I will or what I will not accept in my life. I can't do that if I don't know the answers to those questions. Which takes me right back to my previous statement. I have to work this program. Protect myself as best I can in the meantime and start setting small boundaries on myself.
Cancer or not. Alcholism or not. Drug addiction or not. I decide what I want for me. Doesnt mean I dont have compassion. Doesn't mean I don't understand. Doesn't mean I don't love that other person. It does mean that I will come to have compassion, understanding and love for me too. That I will not accept the unacceptable just because someone else has what they believe (whether they do or not!) is an excuse for it. In my humble opinion, there is no excuse for someone mistreating me or causing my life to be miserable, period.
RainyJamie..Aloha! and its great you keep coming back and searching. I also know what it is like to be where you are at. I was there once and accepting the disease discription helped me to get out of my head about it and stop standing there and analyzing my alcoholic and the what, where, when whatever? Acceptance helped alot. The AMA American Medical Association Manual of diseases includes alcoholism. You can find that on the web. Better yet you already know the compulsion of being an overeater...who doesn't? It is the compulsion that rules and in that your alcoholic has lost the choice of whether he does, doesn't where, when, with whom, at one time etc. The compulsion is that subconscious voice within that doesn't make the suggestion that the alcoholic drink but says "I want it and I want it now!" "Get me a drink." If you change alcohol to food you will start to feel compassion because loss of control is devastating. We put our lives on hold to accomodate the compulsion and in the end don't have anymore life worth living than our spouses and family.
Yes we do have choices and yes we know that what we are about to do isn't good for us, mind, body, spirit or emotions or on that same level for our family, spouses, friends and associates and then we drink or do what ever we are addicted to doing and we cease to become amazed about it and just cop an acceptable attitude about it, whatever that attitude is and so do our family, spouses, friends and associates. They point the finger at us and tell us what we already have come to suspicion, "You are killing yourself!!", "You are not being responsible!!", "You are hurting me and ruining this family!!", "You are an ---hole!!", "Its all your fault!!", "If you loved me you'd stop!!", and forty gazillion more things we already know and in the end you and the alcoholic are amazed...."Why the hell can't I/he stop this insanity?"
Alcoholism is described as, "Cunning, powerful and baffling." It is all of that, all of the time and you will not come to grips or peace with that in your head you must get it into your core, your subconscious, the area where you don't think about it you stop trying to figure it all out and accepted it below the conscious level or else. Or else you loose your life trying to figure it or him or her or yourself out and let it go to a power greater than yourself and go find something to do that makes you feel good; a meeting, a sponsor call, a piece of Conference Approved Literature, a good book, movie, plant, clouds, air, prayer etc.
Alcohol(ism) is an addiction. "Addiction is the practice of anything that inspite of the serious detrimental consequences to our life systems and the life systems of those around us we are compulsed to continue practicing." period; nothing more, nothing less. There are no buts to this statements and nothing needs to be added. Simple is best.
There is no answer to the question why? Why because if you don't accept what we already know than it doesn't matter we will have another why. I did this until working with a sponsor I arrived at acceptance that my alcoholic wife was a very sick person and not a very bad person. I began to see the good in her and recognize the veil that would shroud her goodness whenever the compulsion overcame her. Nasty!! The person I loved and was in love with would vanish right before my eyes and I was devastated but not as much as her.
Cancer, diabetes and other disease are often found in our genetic makeup. So is alcoholism and often times you will find alcoholism and the other disease linked to each other. They are in my family. We have diseases. Sugar is linked with the onset of both cancer and diabetes and others and the concentration of unbeneficial sugars is most high in alcohol. (I went to college to study this disease) All diseases start from within us and we behave in ways that make them manifest. In alcoholism we associate the disease with a behavior. Something the alcoholic does and we miss the whole picture.
You understand the compulsion. Just because you don't bring certain foods into your surroundings doesn't mean that you haven't ever and haven't succumbed even when you didn't want to. What did that compulsion feel like to you? How much did you struggle with it? What did you feel like when it bested you? What did it feel like when it didn't and you were able to withstand the compulsion? What does't it feel like to be abstinent? With and/or without the help of others and a higher power. Now you are in the territory of the struggling alcoholic and addict.
You cannot do anything about his alcoholism because you don't know how!! Only he can do that and he cannot lean on you for it cause you don't know how and you need to tell him and yourself that "I don't know how." He can do it with another recovering alcoholic and surely with honesty and willingness. If he does not have either of these then you have more permission to take your focus off of him and go to your own meetings, sponsors house, literature, a movie, book, gardening or whatever satisfies your soul. (NO PEEKING!! leave him the heck alone!!) As a recovering member of the Al-Anon Family Groups and Alcoholics Anonymous I focus on my own program. My wife is in Al-Anon and I focus on my own program. My sponsees are in either or both programs and we work together to seek solutions and their programs are theirs. If the get negative solutions in their lives, we talk about their process and go over what they did to earn the outcome (good or bad) and still what they do is their program. If they loose or win it was thru their own best effort and choice. If they drink, go use a chemical or attempt to go fix someone elses broken life I go focus somewhere else and turn them over to HP.
There is more to all this, much much more and it requires detatchment and the suggestions of our program. It requires patience and humility (being teachable and allowing room for great successes and great failures.) It requires serenity, courage and wisdom. It requires honesty and the willingness to change.
Do you know how to smile? Then by all means do that! Smiling uses up less muscles in the face than a frown and is better on your looks. Do you know how to smile because you are happy or is your face saying, "I am trying to fool you about where I am at and think you are the greatest slug to ever cross out of the garden, across the lawn, over the walkway and into this house!!" That is from my experience and by the way my alcoholic could read it as if I wrote it on paper and magneted it to the refrigerator because they are so sensitized by their disease and reading our body language is a part of their survival technique. They also say these things to themselves...They know!! Smile because you feel happy. If you are amused by whatever disease he is going thru...save yourself and him the trouble and leave the room or house and go to a meeting or to your sponsors or a movie or a book or the garden.
Loooong version yet because it has taken all this and more and 28 years on 2/8/2007 to earn a spiritual life worth living...it's all yours for free cause I got it free and it's worth having.
Do keep coming back and reaching out for help. That's how I did it and that is what works. Trust God. Clean house. Help others.
I know coming from a "medical family" I had especially a diffiicult problem with this. I mean, I had watched my father make a contract with his patients who did have diseases like you describe RainyJaimie, and, in essence, it said, "If you don't do what I say, find a new dr." I shared this one time and an old timer pulled me aside and put it this way: "Like a cancer patient has chemo, radiation, an oncologist, et cetera, an alcholic has AA, the sponsor, the big book, the meetings, et cetera. And, just like at a certain point someone with cancer may surrender to the reality that their perception of God may be calling them home, at a certain point, the alcholic has to make the decision to do the program, or he's not gonna get better. Like the cancer patient has to take his meds, so does the alcholic." Made a HUGE DIFFERENCE. Hope this helps you dear.
I have trouble Rainy, accepting alcoholism as a disease. Oh they can tell me over and over again that it is a disease because one...two...three...factors make it so. I just don't buy it. Calling it a disease is a cop out as far as I am concerned. An excuse for unacceptable behavior. There are diseases and there are addictions. I believe alcoholism is an addiction. That's my take on it. Most others disagree, and that's ok.
Best wishes to you, Diva
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
For my two cents, I will say that I believe addiction is a disease.....but it is a disease with a certain amount of choice. I can buy that there are addicted folks out there with no education or resources to help them fight this, just like some die from a treatable cancer because they have no insurance. But my own AH? No way.... He's military....if only all addicts and alcoholics had those resources at their fingertips. He knew he needed help for a long time before he actually got it, but didn't want it in his file. He knew it could keep him from deploying and cost him his security clearance, so he didn't ask for help. That is a choice.
I will never forget those sad "poor me" drunks when I just wanted to tell him to screw his balls on and get some help already!!!!!
Hello Rainy , this is what I have learned about a disease wether it be alcoholism or cancer and my hsb has fortunatley been recovering from both for yrs now . when a disease rears it's ugly head I become obsessed with it , I stop living my life and focus on the disease , I watch trying to anticipate it's next move , I hover , and in general become a pain in the butt. hehe * according to my husb* any way disease to me is Gods problem i cna't cure cancer any more than I can alcoholism. so i catch myself and remember the three c's of al anon and carry on with my life . Help him when he asks and otherwise let the experts take care of him while al anon takes care of me . good luck Louise
You have been given a lot of info, different views & a lot to think about - I would like to add I had many struggles in this area - what help me find my peace & my understanding was attending open AA meetings, listening to AA speaker tapes, and I read some of the info in the AA Big Book.
For me it was hard to understand something I had never experienced in the way that they have - not that our pain is any less - it is just different -
I also want to also let you know that whether you choose to accept it as a disease or not - you still do not have to tolerate unacceptable behaviors!! - You deserve to live happy, joyous & free - however you want to be - you deserve to have a way to take good care of yourself emotionally, spiritually & physically.
Rita
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No matter what me and my God are going to be ok, even better than OK -
Alcoholism is a disease that manifests itself in behaviors. Like your eating disorder, you have two choices: eat the foods you are not suppose to with the consequences being: health problems or perhaps even death. Or treat your disease and live. That's about it for the alcoholic: treat the disease and live or don't treat it and either end up in jail or an institution or die. Like you going on in search of the "forbidden foods" because you body and mind is telling you you want them, you need them, it's the same way for the alcoholic. I suspect that you struggle on a daily basis (or even a moment by moment at times) with your "addiction/disease". Try and think back of when you were at your lowest point in your struggle. Did you feel worthless? Did you not care what you put in your body, as long as it was what your body was crying out for? Did you not care what people thought about what you were doing to yourself? Your disease, along with the A's does not justify your behavior or his. But is does explain why it's going on. I'm guessing that you didn't wake up one day and say: "Gee I wish I had an eating disorder." "Gee I think I want to be addict when I grow up." Neither of you wanted what you were given. Your bodies are wired in a different way than people who don't suffer from either. It doesn't make either of you less than a human being, less of a wonderful person, less worthy of recovery. You are both to be cheerished and loved in your own way. I love my husband no less because he has a disease. He would love me no less because I have high blood pressure. If I choose not to treat it, it will affect not only me, but will have consquences for my family as well.
What both of you choose to do with your recovery is up to you. Remember Step 1: we are powerless over alcohol, drugs, etc. Put in your own word. We have choices. It is that choice that can be confusing. Why wouldn't I want to treat my addiction? Why wouldn't I want to treat my cancer? Perhaps because we haven't yet to accept the fact that we are powerless over our problem. It is when we accept that we are powerlessness that the choices become avaiable to us. I treat my blood pressure because I want to be around for my family. My husband choose his recovery because for the first time in years, his 5 year old grandchild didn't care if Santa Claus came because Grandpa was home and sober!
Hope this helps. Love and blessings to you and your family.
Live strong, Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
The disease of alcoholism is unique in that it affects those who aren't even drinking! Yes you suffer from the disease as well. If you think about your past relationships you may find that your last 'boyfriends' were addicts or alcoholics. I don't know you, it's just something for you to think about....
Hi, thanks, I've had some time to think abouthis, I understand it but still want to complain. A few people have asked me to consider what happens when I "fall back" into my eating disorder. Usually things will be fine and I will not even be aware that I am hungry. I'll come accross a problem food and pretty much be unable to resist it. I will take a few bites and realize that I've had enough. But I can't stop. It feels good and even I want to stop...it just happens quicker than I can handle. At some point in time I give up the idea that I am fighting a disease and give in. Afterwards I feel very ashamed and disappointed. Sometimes I will get a craving and raid the kitchen. If there's nothing there (often), I might check the same places again and again. I am not perfect, but I am not mean. He is really mean and lately I can't talk to him at all withut a fight that I am consciously trying to avoid but no matter where I go I step in it. I understand how his addiction/disease can cause this behavior. I don't treat him or anybody like that.
I gues we are all just different people. Thanks Jamie
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I'm like a pinch of tea...put me in hot water and see how strong I can be.
You might find it useful, when thinking about this, to think of it as a mental illness, which is what it is classified as. Very many diseases and conditions affect how a person acts - my father in law had been a very gentle tolerant man, but in the dementia of his later years he became horribly racist - I do NOT believe he had just been hiding it all those years, I believe it was a symptom of his condition.
When I can read a description of an alcholic personality, written 50 years ago by a doctor who had never even seen my husband, and it describes him to a T, then this shows to me that it is recognizable condition, with symptoms and behaviours shared by most sufferers.
Diva wrote: I have trouble Rainy, accepting alcoholism as a disease. Oh they can tell me over and over again that it is a disease because one...two...three...factors make it so. I just don't buy it. Calling it a disease is a cop out as far as I am concerned. An excuse for unacceptable behavior. There are diseases and there are addictions. I believe alcoholism is an addiction. That's my take on it. Most others disagree, and that's ok.
Best wishes to you, Diva
And most others include ALL AL-ANON LITERATURE, STEPS, CONCEPTS AND TRADITIONS...
, lets look at us. 
