The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
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First of all.....a belated Happy new Year to you all.
I don't get to post often these days since it's so difficut for me to get to the internet,but when I do I avidly read as many posts as I can. A friend in Uk got me some Alanon literature and I managed to get a copy of Courage to Change and Get them Sober. I can't get into chat these days and miss you all so much. Please know I pray EVERY day for everyone here and my heart still fills with love for you all.
A and I have been separated for almost a year now,still some very limited contact,but no drama.He is still drinking and lurching from one crisis to the next.I remain detached and just wish him well,and don't get dragged in like I used to. I still love him with all my heart,but have totally accepted that the relationship was doomed and will never be what we both hoped for-ask my HP every day to watch over him and pray that one day he finally "gets it" before it gets him!
I don't have f2f or meetings and have actually started my own group here,although there are only two members.(One is me....LOL!)..but it's a start.I do the best I can with what I have.Thankfully,Alanon has made such an impact on my life I choose to continue to work my programme,maybe not in the way I could if I were in a different country,but with the help of the fantastic ESH here and the lit I have-I manage fairly well and not a day goes by without me devoting some time to keeping myself on track,Some days are better than others,and there are times when I still get confused and in a fog. I try to remember one day at a time,and easy does it and the baby steps.Some days I barely crawl! LOL.
Just before Christmas some friends set me up with meeting a man "accidently" at a party. My friends decided I needed a "little push" since I rarely go out and have a very limited social life,and they thought we'd make a perfect match.Certainly,he seems a nice man and we found a lot of common interests and he was fun to be with. By the end of the evening he was asking me out so we could get to know each other a little better.I was very hesitant,I guess I felt I just wasn't ready,but decided "what the heck!" it's only dinner,so I accepted.
He took me to a very nice,very expensive restaurant(No way I could afford those prices) and had a great meal.I can't explain what it felt like to get all dressed up and go on a date....felt like a stupid teenager!(I'm 54 for goodness sake! LOL) He's intelligent,witty,funny and charming..............................BUT.....BUT....BUT.....before the meal was served he had drunk two large Campari and Orange................he ordered a very expensive bottle of red wine and an equally expensive bottle of white wine during the meal( I drank one and a half glasses) and he finished the lot,then ordered more????
Next day,he phoned me and said how much he had enjoyed my company and he would love to take me out again the next night. Well,I did have a nice evening,and I don't get fed like that often(he-he) so I accepted. Same scenario...............I drank a glass of wine.....he had two bottles!!!!
Am I still walking around with a huge sign on my forehead????? Or am I being over cautious?? He's an international businessman and flew out the following night,but will be back here in three weeks and has asked to see me again when he gets back. Part of me is saying...he's attractive,successful and we definately "tick".......and the other half is watching the drink and saying "WHOAAAAAAAAAAA".
I spoke to my friends about it a few days after he left,(they know him fairly well as he is my friends husbands boss) and they think I am being oversensitive and understand exactly why I am like I am,but believe this a really good opportunity for me to move on and be with someone who will actually treat me well..............as opposed to me looking after my exA. They gently reminded me that international business men do tend to lead very social lives and that alcohol often plays a huge part of that. And that they knew he was seriously very attracted to me and he had asked my friends husband whether he knew if he was "in with a chance" of something more than just dinner with me. I actually told this man honestly that despite being separated from my ex for almost a year now,I was still in love with him. He took that ok and said he could understand why I was cautious about another relationship,and we could take it slowly and at any pace that suited me.On the surface,it all sounds ideal..............so why am I hesitating and holding back? Is this normal?Or am I just not ready period?
Are there really "RED FLAGS" or am I being paranoid?
I know you guys will give it to me straight........so fire away!!!!!(LOL)
Personally I think you are very aware which is good. I know that I tend to ignore signals. I do think its a lot to drink and I drink myself and was involved in a very heavy drinking scene through my job some years ago. I know a great deal of us graduated to alcoholism, I feel I narrowly escaped. The fact that you are conscious of it means that you should not minimise what you feel about it. How does he behave with it? I also think that in the beginning of relationships, everything is rosy in the garden and people are trying to put their best foot forward. I wish you the best and am sure you will know what decision to come to.
i think your gut/instinct is telling you something... listen to it... right or wrong, you WILL be apprehensive with this particular gentleman. facts are facts, and there is NO HARM in asking him about what kind of drinking he does... also, NO HARM in telling him about your recovery. mine is a part of my life, and my next relationship will be without holding back. also, NO HARM in you always being honest... that could lead you to a great life, or a couple of great dates, or what ever your HP has in store.
basicly, if it were me, (and it is not me, it is you) i'd be listening to inner me. only you know what you can accept. can you accept him the way he is today? if not, i think you need to at least get some honest and open communication going. i hope the best in your life!!!!! brightest blessings cj
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time to stop going to the hardware store to buy bread.
myself I made the decision i would not date anyone who used any drug. but that is me. There is nothing wrong with drinking alcohol, as long as you do not get drunk. to me that is.
If I were you Chris, I would see if he wanted to spend the day at the zoo, or a museum or ? See if he chooses to have alcohol again.
go to the movies, uno what i mean? Spend time doing things besides dinner, before you decide if you want to cont. to see him.
Myself, I found I could not date or see anyone while still in love with my A. I tried, but it was never right.
I hope for you, you can let go of A. I really do.
I know it is not my business, but for me physical stuff confuses everything. For me, I want to keep my mind clear and make good decisions. Maybe I especially would not get that kind of involved, until I was really sure about the guy. Becuz I would want to make sure I looked at it all realistically and do not want my hormones guiding me.
NO way would I want to goof and fall in love with an A again!!!
Anyway lighten up maybe and have fun and keep your eyes open. love,debilyn
He remained charming all night despite what I felt was a lot of alcohol consumed.........Certainly wasn't staggering or in any way impaired...............unlike my ex who would have been slurring and staggering or smashing up the restaurant if he had drunk that amount!!!!(sigh)
Kind of made me wonder though.........if he can drink this much without showing any outward sign of inebriation.........surely he must be a well seasoned drinker? Or was it that my ex was so far down the road that even a bottle of beer would have him slurring?I'm well aware that not everyone who drinks is an alcoholic and that it's a very sociably accepted thing in moderation,but how much is too much? And does it point to a problem drinker or not?
Also I was thinking........this guy KNEW (I told him!) the reason I finished with my ex was alcohol related. I was totally honest and up front about it all.In fact,he told me he was amazed at how strong and philosophical I was about it all,and how he respected my candid responses to his questions about it.Being aware of roses and new gardens in early relationships.......wouldn't that have made him cautious about the quantity of drink he consumed if he was trying to impress me? Kind of got me thinking maybe I was being too sensitive and actually looking for a reason NOT to date again?
Half of me actually wants to move on and enjoy a "normal" relationship again..............and the other half of me has forgotten "what the heck is normal" anymore?
I just couldn't bear to get involved with someone again and to face the same situation I've come out of,and am so aware of us attracting the same "qualities" in a future partner. I suppose what I am really saying is....I'm SCARED!!!!! I don't want to jeopardise my chance of a happy relationship because I'm too hung up on issues I've taken from my last experience.
Funny,because I was also thinking how we should all be careful what we wish for.........I so remember saying several times.."Cripes I could handle my A being a drunk,if only he was a happy and functioning drunk!!" Sadly,mine was a violent,non functioning drunk so riddled with guilt and shame that he drank even more to dull the pain of what he had become. I loved him with all my heart,seeing beneath the veil of the disease. Maybe that's why I'm so scared of trying again?
Nothing wrong with taking it slow, and seeing if there are even more red flags, or if this falls into place for you when you know him batter. I agree with Deb - (if it isn't too personal) I wouldn't get physical until I was pretty sure it would be OK.
You don't have to worry about losing him, because if your caution scares him off, he's not right for you anyway.
It seems a lot to drink to me, too, especially as he knows you are wary of drinking.
I won't date a man who drinks. My suggestion would be to figure out what you want in a partner and what you will not tolerate. Also, I have noticed all the lies a man tells in the very beginning. I would pay attention to how I felt inside when I was with them. If there are uneasy feelings, RUN, RUN, RUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give yourself the benefit of the doubt, not HIM. You deserve the best!!
I think Debilyn had a pretty good idea in doing a non alcoholic related date and see how that turns out. You could come out and ask, but then if he is an A you are sure to be told lies. and...you said "Cripes I could handle my A being a drunk,if only he was a happy and functioning drunk!!"
Don't kid yourself. Mine was a functioning happy drunk, it sucked!!! He went to work everyday and spent every other waking hour at the bar. Weekends, evenings and even holidays. If he wasn't at the bar he was sleeping it off. It was a pretty lonely way to live.
I guess you could say "just how much do you drink"? and see if he mumbles or stumbles over the answer...lol Maybe you can just let it roll..see what happens and keep your distance?
love ya girl, take care Christy
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If we think that miracles are normal, we will expect them. And expecting a miracle is the surest way to get one.
Good Question! I think any time a red flag is raised inside of me, it's good to pay very close attention. If I realize later that it's nothing, I can always loose the flag LOL. But, if it is something--and it often is--then paying attention to the flag is my best of way of taking care of me.
I did a little research (thank you google), and found out the following information about wine:
The standard amount of wine in a bottle is 25 fluid ounces.
One serving/glass of wine is 5 ounces.
If your date drank two bottles of wine, he drank roughly (minus the glass and a half you drank), 50 ounces of wine, or 10 glasses + the two additional drinks he ordered before the wine. To me, any way you slice it is A LOT of alcohol. Put it this way, if a man drank ten glasses of soda in one sitting over dinner, I would question is judgement, too. The fact that he could drink this much and not "show" it, would also raise a flag for me.
If you're afraid that you're just overreacting, you might consider doing some research (I saw a lot of great sites on google), just for your own information, on alcohol consumption. There are lots of articles out there on how much is too much to drink, etc. that will at least give you a better understanding of alcohol consumption, so that you are relying on sources and not just on what he says.
Your own two eyes are telling you there's an elephant in the livingroom, and yet you doubt. Other people, (well intentioned or with their own motives - he's their boss? And "accidentally" at a party is manipulation) are telling you there is no elephant in the livingroom. They are telling you, that what you know to be true, is not true. What kind of friends are those?
Trust your own two eyes.
The man is an alcoholic. Are you waiting for someone to spell it out to you, or will you trust your own two eyes? Go forward with the knowledge that he will not change, and no matter how you dress it up with a high powered job, a good income, nice clothes, elegant food, it's the same cunning, baffling disease and it's already sucking you in, because you are doubting yourself already.
These two dates might be the best you ever get from him.
The horns on their heads match the holes in our heads. I hope you have a sense of humor because I want to tell you to stick red flags in your holes instead! LOL.
I'm wondering why you didn't make it clear to your friends that dating alcoholics is a deal breaker for you (I'm assuming that's something you want to avoid).
Nice to hear from you, I know Internet from Turkey is difficult.
I owe you a big debt. I read the poem to HP you published here every morning so, "danke!" "These changes need to be made, before I can give you...."
Maybe you need to read this poem again...for yourself. You could leave everything up to HP and remember that we tend to wear those rose-colored eyeglassses in the beginning. Find out hard, cold facts and make your own decisions.
You are capable and it is your life. Friends are nice, but they are not in your skin.
Thank you SO much for the sensible replies. (I love you guys so much)
No worries about me getting "physical" with any darned guy,that's for sure. I'd need to really get to know him well before I went down that route. A 'lil ol' fashioned gal I am!! After the second date,he did ask me to stay at his hotel with him that night...(can't blame a guy for trying eh?) and I told him straight.......I valued myself far too highly to be swept off my feet for a couple of nice meals....and was happy to split the bill if it bothered him. He laughed and said no way he expected me to pay for dinner,he had the best time he'd had in a long while and he was dead keen to do it again soon. Also mentioned he was surprised to find a woman with such high self esteem and not afraid to recognise her worth! Geeeez....this fake it till you make it lark must really work? If he knew how I really felt inside he would have laughed his socks off eh?
Yes ((Christy)) high functioning or not.....alcoholism in any way,shape or form is NOT a barrel of laughs. I was kind of saying"Be careful what you wish for" and was really jibing at myself for being so flippant during the incredibly difficult time I had previously.I used to think that it would be a lot easier for me to accept A if he functioned at all.........of course that's rubbish. Alcoholism is heartbreaking,in whatever form it comes. My dealbreaker with A was violence......end of! I was absolutely willing to do whatever it took to learn to cope with A drinking or not....I WASN'T prepared to deal with living in fear of aggression.
((Toto)) so good to see you again . No such things as debt here........we're all in it together. You've helped me more than you can know,along with so many others here.
((Debilyn)) great idea....I will see how it goes when he comes back at the end of the month. If he's still interested I will suggest a day out and see how long it is before he reaches for a drink. Personally I prefer tea,but I'll be watching carefully.
((CJ)) ((Lin)) ((Kissers)) ((Blue Cloud)) ((roygbiv)).....yes the two dates I had may well be the best I'll get. Well,I did enjoy being made a fuss of for a change. I'm so NOT scared of scaring him off........it was quite liberating feeling so in control and being unafraid to state quite clearly I wasn't selling myself short.Actually being thanked for being so upfront was a revelation.I was sure I'd have the guy running for the hills by now as I really gave him quite a hard time.It can't have been very encouraging to be on a date when someone tells you straight up"I'm on a date with you,but I will always love my ex!" The rose tinted glasses weren't even on ......I'm actively LOOKING for warning signs. The problem seems to be that I see alcohol as a normal part of social life. Taken in moderation, I don't see it as a dealbreaker for me.I know lots of people who drink moderately,and are great fun to be with.Also know plenty who occassionally drink too much,but NOT on a regular basis........doesn't make them alcoholics.
So...the red flags? I've seen them and have taken note. Will let go and let God. Maybe he was nervous and drank more than he would normally have done,maybe I was overzealous in my attempts to avoid another disaster. It was two dates. I'm on red alert. I liked him and there was definately an attraction.
I find a lot of my reactions are based on fears.......and projecting possible outcomes. I need to work harder to overcome these fears. I need to understand if my fear is of an actual relationship,or fear of another bad relationship with another alcoholic,however well he functions.
Thank you for your wise words. I'm going to pray hard for HP to lead me. When this man returns,if he asks to see me again....I think I will go and test the waters...........slowly....verrrrrrrrrrrry slowly...and see what happens. And watch the actions very closely. I have no qualms about running and no qualms about telling him straight up..."you're a nice guy,but not for me." And telling him exactly WHY.
I'm not sure what I actually want....I DO know what I DON'T want....maybe I need to have a clearer idea what it is that I want,and focus on that,asking HP to guide me.
Also I was thinking........this guy KNEW (I told him!) the reason I finished with my ex was alcohol related.
Before I even got to this post that you made I was thinking the same thing. I was wondering if he did know why your marriage did not survive. Now that you say you told him in the beginning, I am surprised that he DID drink so much.
I agree with debilyn. I would try to get into some activities that do not involve alcohol and see how they go. Maybe even tell him that you are not comfortable doing things that involve drinking. See how he acts about that.
I'm glad that you have formed a group. Way to go girl. Who knows the word might spread and it could grow. I think it is amazing (not surprising given who you are) have continued your program despite all the obstacles. It speaks volumes about your recovery.
I'm think it is great that you went out and had a good time. I can understand about the red flags. You know it's funny, but I get uncomfortable around my friends sometimes when we go out to dinner and have more than a glass of wine. I know they don't have a problem. A group of us have a friend who is definitely close to being an alcoholic if not there. I love her to death, but I can't stand to be around her when she's been drinking. Too many memories.
I don't know what to tell you about this man. I don't think you are being paranoid and it would concern me too. Follow your heart in this. It may be HP telling you that maybe you are not quite ready to walk down that path. Or perhaps HP is asking you some questions that need to be answered. Such as: Are you ready to move on? Would you be able to be with another man who might have a drinking problem? Are you ready to be treated like the young lady you are?
Whatever you decide, you'll make the choice. I have great faith in you. Love and blessings to you and your family. Kiss the grandson for me! What a handsom guy. Give our love to Ruby too.
Live strong,
Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
I have read a few of your posts over the past few months. I too have struggled with the idea of attracting another A and the fear of being oversensitive or undersensitive. I think doing a non alcohol related activity is a great idea. Also, I think that much wine without being tipsy is a little odd and would make me wonder. I have learned that for me the thing I need to do the most is step back and wait and see. To allow things to happen as they are going to rather than trying to control the outcome. I think doing nothing has been the biggest lesson learned and most helpful thing for me. Nothing wrong with going out and watching and seeing. Doesn't mean you have to marry the guy, doesn't mean you ever have to go again if you decide you don't want to. Personally, I'd go on as long as it was fun and if it started to not be I'd stop. All the while cautiously watching, it's hard to accept the prospect of opening your heart again just so it might be broken. I'd see others too, nothing exclusive and not get too attached for a good long time!!
Happy New Year to you too my dear. I appreciate your friendship and fellowship.
I love how I'm told by my sponsor, don't ask the question if you don't want the answer (tee hee he).
I'm with Roybgiv and the big elephant in the room which made me think while I was reading your post about something I recently heard in the chat room when a member took their child to a counselor.
"When we lie to our children, [like saying Daddy's sick (not drunk) or calling them into sick into work for instance] we teach them NOT to trust their own intuition."
That so rings true for me. I grew up in an A home and it also makes sense why we pick either other A's or other future Alanoners.
I'm not advising one way or the other, I like Debilyn's idea about non-drinking events too. I'm just saying listen to those red flags. We are learning new behaviors. We can recover or repeat. Ugh, I sure don't want to repeat.
Love ya,
Maria
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If I am not for me, who will be? If I am only for myself, then who am I? If not now, when?
When I met the current A I drank socially. I do not drink anymore. I am really well aware that alcohol clouds my judgment. I did not see the A drink too much when I met him. At the same time I think all people including the A are on their best behavior for a long long time. I also know that in my prior days I have screened out men who had issues early on. I think now there would be ways I could have worked with those issues. I think it takes a while to really see the red flags for what they are. I made huge mistakes with the A of being too involved too quickly. I know someone else would be difficult.
I am also in my 50's pretty isolated and sad most of the time. I have not been out socially for more than a year. The way it is set up with the A is that if we socialize I pay. I am tired of that. So I don't socialize at all and I am feeling it these days. I am hoping in the next week to be able to go out. could you consider broadening your horizons so you meet other met so it isn't all or nothing? Can you consider him as part of a pool. I do think your friends are being a bit pushy. I think its fine to set people up but not to be overinvolved in it.
Sadly,mine was a violent,non functioning drunk so riddled with guilt and shame that he drank even more to dull the pain of what he had become. I loved him with all my heart,seeing beneath the veil of the disease. Maybe that's why I'm so scared of trying again?
