The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
Attempting to do what we are not trained to do is using bad judgment; we must resist the temptation to assign descriptive words that should only be spoken by a professional who is fully educated in making such pronouncements. (I'm not even too sure about some of them.) A blanket statement, lumping all alcoholics into neat little boxes doesn't work. Their personalities, quirks, and behaviors are as varied as anyone else's. The fact that one drinks to excess does not necessarily point to the fact of underlying mental illness.
If we choose to believe that alcoholism is a disease, we must remember that all diseases have varying symptoms. And the vast majority of diseases, including alcoholism, have nothing to do with the sufferer's mental state. There are probably some typical alcoholic behaviors; true. But to attempt to analyze those behaviors by applying names to the symptoms should flash a big "ERROR" sign.
We could choose to believe that alcoholism is an simply addiction and not a disease, and that the alcoholic holds the key to his/her own recovery just as the smoker or over-eater does. Alcoholism kills; smoking kills; gluttony kills. They are all progressive. There are undeniable similarities amongst all addictions.
Your "A" is unlike mine or anyone else's. There are traits in common. Sure. Genetics and environment have been cited as playing a major role in predicting alcoholism. Maybe that's true. Maybe not. But I haven't read a study which indicates in any way that mental illness has a role to play.
Do you have any thoughts about this? I'd love to hear them.
Best regards to all, Diva
-- Edited by Diva at 10:30, 2006-08-15
-- Edited by Diva at 10:40, 2006-08-15
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
Some people prefer to have a malady or condition so characterised however...it makes them more comfortable, feel part of a club perhaps? The danger is however if you accept that label you might begin to look for other symptoms, or accept them as being inevitable.
Others go to the opposite extreme. For example cancer sufferers who would prefer not to be told officially what is wrong with them.
I think the term alcoholism is a huge umbrella term for a wide variety of afflictions.
My partner for instance has no urge to drink but when she did 2 glasses of wine and she might become the most foul mouthed abusive opinionated person you might wish to avoid. Personally I believe she is allergic to alcohol in some way. Now that the alcohol is no longer there however she is all too ready in my opinion to accept the label and so live up to it.
I think labelling serves a purpose however. The sooner people accept there are as many varieties of alcoholism as there are alcohlics the better.
Diva, I love hearing you share here. I really do. I feel as if you sometimes say things so much more...*tactfully* than I can sometimes. I am so obliged to you.
I think, in my experience, people who have not worked the steps or do not have a sponsor to sort out very raw emotions with are in so much pain they feel a need for a "whipping post" of sorts. I know I'm guilty of this; for example I've lost my Criminal law note book (no less the week of the final...). So, I blame my father. In reality, he had nothing to do with the situation; but he *is* a convienient target. So, I fire away. Not good al anon. Not good at all. And I *do* work the steps, *and* have a sponsor!
So, to some level, it's a willingness to work the program. At another, it's maturity. Progress not perfection.
well, i guess i could think about the a and the disease and i have spent much, much time thinking about them. the one thing that has occured to me after being in this program is that what alcoholism is, what the alcoholic does and why they do it has nothing to do with me. when i catch myself trying to analize or over thinking i realize that it is because i don't want to focus on myself. i do find alcoholism and addiction interesting and i do pay attention to what the "latest" thought is. but beyond that i want to get better and the whatevers and whyevers of the a usually just serve to distract me from my recovery. i choose to believe that the disease of alcoholism is a mental disorder in that their thinking process is distorted and their chemicals are not in balance. it is the brain that effects the body in this disease. most of the studies i have read conclude that an underlying mental illness is present and the alcoholic is self medicating. some studies say that it is difficult to say which comes first, the mental illness or the addiction. those are just the most recent ones that i have seen. i have heard that there is a gene so the nuture vs. nature is a hard argument. but one specialist said that nuture can make a huge difference in the severity of the disease. makes sense, an a being raised by "healthy "parents stands a better chance at getting recovery than one being raised by a parents in denile. knowledge is power but all the knowledge that i have does nothing against this disease. knowledge of what i need, who i am is the most important. as far as any of us using terms to descibe our a's well, that is how we feel. i don't think it is dangerous or wrong. they are words we have heard in relation to the disease or ourselves or in general. a tumor is a tumor. are there different kinds?sure but when we are dealing with a loved one who has cancer and reaching out to others who have had a loved one who has cancer we say tumor and we understand. some might have a fast growing tumor, some might have a spreding tumor, some tumors might effect the system differently in different people. but in the end we are only trying to find support and understanding. i think this was interesting topic and i hope to read more about it.
"And the vast majority of diseases, including alcoholism, have nothing to do with the sufferer's mental state."...??
Alcoholism 'inebriates' people, unlike overeating or cigarette smoking. Alcohol is a strong depressant. Much like pharmaceutical depressants. It changes neural pathways in very severe ways. It impairs motor skills, unlike cigarette smoking and overeating. It clinically creates an altered state of moods and functioning. Although, as you stated, all alcoholics do not have the same manifestation of mood-change related symptoms, it does, in it's sufferers, create mood changes in every single one.
Alcoholism is listed in the DSM-V (Diagnostic Statistical Manual) as a psychiatric condition.
Oxfordjournals.org also has many clinical articles on the subject, from various departments of psychiatry.
"In 1992, a joint committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine was formed to establish a definition of alcoholism that could be used in a clinical setting. That committee defined the condition as a "primary, chronic disease with genetic, psychosocial, and environmental factors influencing its development and manifestations. The disease is often progressive and fatal...characterized by impaired control over drinking, preoccupation with the drug alcohol, use of alcohol despite adverse consequences, and distortions in thinking, most notably denial. Each of these symptoms may be continuous or periodic."
Other good clinical reads on the topic can be found by reading actual medical and psychiatric research, by looking up information through the American Academy of Psychiatric Medicine, American Psychiatric Association, and American Medical Association.
"Let us be careful......" to use humility where we as lay-people try to 'judge' what alcoholism is, and what it isn't, while there are vloumes and volumes of studies throughout the past few decades done by actual clinical experts, who have no bias on the matter.
According to medical science, addiction is very much a disease in and of itself. Some of us will continue to believe otherwise, though, because it is what we are 'comfortable with', for whatever reason.
The real reason we in alanon are here, is not to figure out alcoholism. It is to take the very best care of ourselves. When I no longer wanted to know, nor cared about the various opinions about the actual disease, I miraculously was able to stop focusing on the disease and get better.
Oh please. To think that I am trying to analyze alcoholism is ludicrous. And to say that our alcoholic's alcoholsim has nothing to do with us is a foolish statement. Sorry if I offend. It has everything to do with us. We learn to deal with it and see and focus on ourselves, true. But it is always there, like a spectre looming, and to deny that fact just doesn't make sense.
And as to "if we must focus on alcoholism again"...yes, I must. I find it cathartic. Every time anyone here makes a post, he/she is "focusing" on alcoholism. Like it or not.
Thanks for all your posts. I do appreciate them.
With love and best to all, Diva
-- Edited by Diva at 12:05, 2006-08-15
-- Edited by Diva at 12:06, 2006-08-15
-- Edited by Diva at 12:08, 2006-08-15
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"Speak your truth quietly and clearly..." Desiderata
I have my own theory. I could never get over the term "disease". You dont catch this in Africa from moquito or from from kissing. You develop this as addiction over the years. I think that is logical, isnt it? All addictions are different and every single person is different. Throw them in one group is just not good enought. As i said before, not all people want to do the 12 steps, they may just want to do some of them in their own way and they get hammered for it.
Anthropologically speaking (which is what my degress is in), saying that all alcoholics have X traits in them and that the only way to treat them, is like saying, America is made up of one culture. Not true. There is no cookie cutter science when it comes to people, their culture and everything else. We are not genetically, physically, emotionally the same.
With my husband, his mental health work is just as important as his AA work. But that's him. My father-in-law did it the spiritual way. To say that the guy next to him needs mental health as well as AA may not be true. Now the people I have met in his AA all do mental health work too. It depends on the person.
While there are patterns of behavior to addicts that they have in common, we all know, not every addict exhibits them. My husband rarely showed his mean drunk side. If it came out, it was with words, not physical behavior. It's like saying all active alcoholics drink at a bar, mine did not, he was solitary.
IMO perhaps what we are looking here on the board when we talk about what addicts do, is to know that other people have experienced the same type of behavior and we are searching for ways to deal with them.
I do believe that alcohol is a disease, the same way high blood pressure, and diabetes is too. How we treat them, how we manage our disease depends on the person and the doctors involved.
Thanks as always for the thought provoking post.
Love and blessings to you and your family and all the animals.
Live strong,
Karilynn & Pipers Kitty
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It's your life. Take no prisoners. You will have it your way.
This I know only too well. Dang Diva, don't wanna work when I am not at work!!!!
The Centre For Addiction and Mental Health (CAMH) in Toronto Canada has done an enormous amount of work in this field, and being the lucky lady that I am, I have had the privilege of sitting through days of very boring but very informative seminars.
So, will try and make this short but not "hell yes" short
People who have mental health issues and addiction (alcohol or other substances) combined have different treatment needs. AA also recognizes this fact and runs a 12 step program called double trouble, in Canada anyhow(mainly the Toronto area).
And I agree with you, addiction does not necessarily point to an underlying mental health issue. Unfortunately in the last decade or so the medical institutions have decided to pathologize all socially unacceptable behaviours. Almost all of em can be found in the DSM.
What we do know is that if someone has an undiagnosed mental health issue and an addiction issue combined professionals will often treat the underlying mental health issue first. To their surprise the addiction issue often (not always) became a moot point. What had happened was once the mental health issue was being properly treated the person no longer felt the need to self medicate.
I'm sorry, I am very tired. What was your question again???? Really, will come back to this. My stepdaughter was hit by a car on Sunday and we have had very little rest. Will sleep and try again.
lilms
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Two things: 1. Recovery is a process, not an event.....and.... 2. You only get to go around once. Leave em laughing and make it worth your while
I'm confused.Your last post asked us if your husband's behavior was "typical A behavior".Many replies seemed to say yes it is.
Now it seems you are saying we should not say that any behavior is typical of A's because they all have varying behaviors and we are not qualified to say.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something? If so, I apologize.
Well I think we all have different traits. I do try to these days stick to my traits, martyr, feeling a victim and more. Some of us do have other issues (I have them) and some of us don't. I do know that my A's drug using is a signfiicant issue in the relationship. I think he has many many issues which go beyond A'ism. I also think that had I been aware that drug use and alcoholism was so prevalent in his life I would have seen a red flag. But then I see red flags and don't act on them and that is one really big issue for me. I try these days to honor red flags when I see them at least acknowledge them, not bury my head in them.
Personally I have seen many many professionals. I also have been in many groups. I find al-anon immensely helpful. I still see a therapist and choose to do that but I think I will be in al-anon for a long long time, the wisdom here and the knowledge and the practical suggestions are immensely helpful for me.
Although I agree in principle with your post Diva, and try not to categorize people - I truly believe we are all individuals.... My experience in living around alcoholism has jaded me somewhat in this regard... Yes, there are some differences, but when I read books on this disease, and the behaviors associated with it, I am always amazed at how eerily similar many of the patterns are....
I remember when I first entered the doors of Al-Anon, close to ten years ago now.... I went in believing that NOBODY could possibly understand the chaos that was happening behind the closed doors of my home.... Then I picked up my first book on the subject (Getting Them Sober, volume one), and there was my life, splashed, in detail, over the pages of chapter one, two, three, etc.... I became amazed and enthralled at how very similar the patterns really are.... I spent a lot of time around the treatment centers that my ex-A attended, and there were definitely many repetitive patterns of behavior, that "most" addicts showed....
I agree we are not "professionals" and are best at simply sharing our own experiences and learnings....
Take care
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
We are all individuals, and how the disease of alcoholism manifests itself can have different degrees and layers. Like Tom, I am also somewhat jaded on this topic, but I constantly find myself amazed at the similarities in alcoholics. I can't compare it to any other disease. I know that you can't use blanket statements for all alcoholics...as some are more or less abusive than others...whether it be verbally, physically, or emotionally. But the fact of the matter is...the disease alone is abusive. Alcoholism is progressive - some are at different stages, some try to 'control' it, and some have stopped but aren't even close to recovered. Some are going through the motions of recovery, but still don't really 'get it'...and then there are the ones that truly understand the power of it all...and have embraced recovery from the inside out. The disease is patient...and will continue to attempt deception.
The bottom line (for me) is that no matter which way you slice it...alcoholism feels ugly to the people who live with it and/or around it. The power that it has over its victims is mind boggling. It's a smart disease.
It outsmarted me. Today, I am still working through the effects...and will continue to do so...
Diva, I love hearing you share here. I really do. I feel as if you sometimes say things so much more...*tactfully* than I can sometimes. I am so obliged to you. 
). So, I blame my father. In reality, he had nothing to do with the situation; but he *is* a convienient target. So, I fire away. 
Not good al anon. Not good at all. And I *do* work the steps, *and* have a sponsor! 
