Serious Help Needed Fast - Al-Anon Family Group

rozrn2 · Member

Serious Help Needed Fast

kspear · Veteran Member

Hi Roz.

I won't offer advice, as that's not what we are here for. Only my experience.

I have found that there is nothing *I* can do to change someone else. I can change me, that's about it. I know that when it comes to dealing with another sick person, be it an alcoholic or another al-anon "need-to-be" (as opposed to wannabe), it can be quite frustrating, because I want them to see what I can see, to behave how I believe they should behave, all kinds of things like that. But I've also found that the sick person can only see what they can see.

After all, I did not know when I was sick that I was sick until I could see that I was sick. To me it was normal behavior. It was normal thinking. It was just the way life always was for me. It took, I believe, an act of Providence to enable me to see. It also took others to step out and stop enabling me and my sick behavior. It wasn't until then that I was able to see that what I had been doing up to that point just wasn't working any more.

Can I confront someone about their dishonesty? Sure. Does it mean they will see it or admit to it? Not necessarily. It would be nice if that was the way it worked. But in reality, I can take responsibility for my action, but I cannot put expectations on the other person's response. I cannot project it, I cannot anticipate it, I cannot be responsible for their reaction. That, after all, is their side of the street.

My "job" in this life and in this recovery process is quite simple. Admit the problem, trust a power greater than myself, clean house and keep it that way. If I continue to try to get others to behave the way I want them to - even though it seems like it's the right way or the completely reasonable way for them to behave - I have stepped off of my side of the street and have butted into theirs.

There are many tools available through working the program of AA or Alanon that equip me to deal with the sick folks around myself. They certainly don't come overnight and I don't always remember (or choose) to use them. But they certainly do make life much better for me.

My ex loved to lie about stupid things (or not so stupid things). I remember the time he quit his job but kept going "to work". We had an emergency at home and I tried to reach him at work and they told me that he didn't work there anymore, hadn't for a few weeks. Where he was during "work" hours I still don't know to this day. But for me to continue to expect honesty from someone who would lie like that was unreasonable. He was what he was.

After we separated, I would "expect" him to be at my house to pick up the kids when he said he would be. He, more often than not, would not show up on time or at all. My plans were then pretty much shot. I used to complain to my sponsor about it - probably at least 3-4 times a week for about 6 months. Finally he got sick of hearing it and said, "Karen, why do you keep expecting him to be something other than what he has habitually proven himself to be? You need to accept that he is what he is and live accordingly." To me that meant I had to always have a backup plan for childcare if I made arrangements to be doing something.

Wow, this turned out to be much longer than I intended, and the sad part is, I could go on. But I'll stop here.

Karen

lin0606 · ~*Service Worker*~

You cannot change another person. You can only accept him as he is, or move on.

That's the alanon program, condensed into one supercharged particle. If you want to know more about us, this is a good place to start - read older posts, read some of our Literature. There is help here to get you to that place where you can accept that "changing him" is not one of your options, and find a way to be a peace with that. Wecome.

mac57 · Veteran Member

Dear Roz,

One thing I have come to know here in Al-anon is that there are people here like Karen whose experiences and the wisdom they've gained from them are treasures of value. What I hear in your words is that you love this person and want to help him. That shows a wonderfully compassionate heart, in you. What I didn't hear in your words is that he wants, or is even ready to accept that he needs help, other than to go through the motions in order to keep you from giving up on him and going away. That is not an unusual, unfortunately, and I can surely relate to that.

My wife treated me with indifference and arrogance for years, while her drinking persisted and deeply affected our kids. My attempts to rectify the situation led to my own demise, because childhood problems arose in my frustration of being unable to change our situation. In the conflict of the deep sadness and dysfunction I experienced, however, came the clarity that I wanted to be happy, not to suffer. And as I slowly changed my focus from that which was "not right," to that which will make me feel healthy, happy, and whole, I began to find joy. My situation at home has not greatly changed. I have changed. Al-anon, and the incredibly loving, open and compassionate people here, has given me given me specific tools with which to understand MY responsiblities in getting better, in recovering from the depths of depression and sorrow. My pain may have initially stemmed from another's challenges, but the heartbreak was my own. The healing, the joy, the newfound excitement of finding love again in myself, bringing to my day the sweetness I remember from before I lost my self worth, has been nothing short of a miracle, to me. And while it may not evoke a change in my wife's drinking, it has evoked a better me. My daughter, my friends, my coworkers, siblings, and most of all, myself, has come to know a happier me.

Take care of yourself, first. Your love for him, and your sweetness in wanting to help him, is genuine and remarkable. Remind yourself where that love and sweetness originates, from you. Honor the source of your love, turn within and in time you will see that all is well, in the face of the appearance that all is not well. For you are deeply loved, and you abide in love, and you have found a loving place in al-anon to express it.

Bless your heart

David

rozrn2 · Member

THANK YOU ALL.

I had just talked to D before reading your wonderful replies. You have really learned your stuff through the school of hard knocks. I thought I had already been through that school, but evidently it never ends, the ongoing journey.

Everything you all said is so true. I am going to find an Alanon group here (I hope there is one) and get to learning. He sounded willing to work on things today.

Something he finally pointed out to me, was that I am not asserting my boundaries in a non-offensive way. Something for me to learn, as I never had boundaries in my life. We can learn from each other. And it was a step for him, as he had been holding this inside and had not said anything about it (he is very fearful or whatever the correct term would be, of confrontation). But then again, I have always been, too, so I don't know how to do it in a healthy manner.

Thank you so much for your quick responses, and I hope to learn more from you. I will check in regularly and read the old posts. I feel there is a lot to be learned here.

Thanks again, Roz

abbyal · ~*Service Worker*~

HELLO ROZ- When u reach the end of your rope , tie an knot and hang on. You post told us alot about him and not much about yourself except your concern for him . I learned here that obsession over how to help my A husb almost destroyed my family. Everything I tried to do failed miserably today I know it was doomed to fail his problems were not mine to fix.

You can arrange councelling but if he is not willing it is a waste of time and your money. Fixing himself is his job not yours,we can support thier choices not make them for them. I did alot of wrong things for the right reasons , before arriving in this program .

Have u been involved in a A relationship before ? Were fixers it seems and we do know how to find people who need to be fixed .

As I was told the holes in our heads fit the horns in thiers . yuck here is toll free number for international meeting list . 1-888-4alanon

goodluck

isabela40 · Senior Member

Hi Roz,

My heart goes out to you, as you clearly are a very caring and nuturing person.

I just want you to think about a few things...

You say he is living with his parents, and that he does not have enough money to get counseling and that he is doing "exercises" that you give him and that you told him to 'journal".

It sounds more like he could be your son then future husband...

Do you really want to marry someone whom you feel is so "lost" that you have to act as his counselor? The way you talk about him, except for the "we have talked about getting married" part sounds so much like you are talking about your grown son, that he does not have money and you are helping him get himself together, etc.

Even if you have the credentials to be his counselor (and you clearly don't as a trained counselor would never treat their own boyfriend)...do you really want to do that the rest of your life? Don't you want a PARTNER in life, rather than a pseudo "son" as in dependent (whether physically, or emotionally)?

Don't sell yourself short. See this is a learning opportunity, a chance to practice your relationship skills to do better next time. Roz, you deserve a fully functional human being as a partner, not someone you have to "raise" to be a functional human being.

Once again, I will say 'Decide what you want, but go into it with your eyes open". See him for what he really is, a child in a man's body who still needs "rearing". If that is acceptable to you, that you may marry him and be a "Mom" figure to him then go right ahead...just be aware fo the choices you are making.

I will say that I have known other women who have made this choice. Eventually, like all "children", their boyfriends/husbands "grew up" and left the nest...it is hard to be romantically attracted to a "Mom" figure in the long term. They wanted to now stretch their wings and "be a man" and meet a woman with whom they could feel on equal footing with, and have some self respect.

Like I said, make your choice, but be aware of the choice you are making, go into this with your eyes open. It still may be worth it to you to take the chance and marry him. Just remember the responsiblity you are taking on, "raising a child". His parents are probably happy to unload him on you. He will probably be happy to be unloaded. It looks better to be dependent on a girlfirend/wife than your real mommy and daddy.

Just sharing my ESH.

Love,

Isabela

rozrn2 · Member

You are right, I was kind of obsessing on trying to get him fixed. I have to wait until he acknowledges the problem. He HAS acknowledged that SOMETHING is wrong, but is adamant that it has nothing to do with the family history of alcoholism. I was going at it too demandingly, ultimatums sort of. Wrong tactic entirely. I will have to make whatever I have available to him and if he chooses to use it, then GREAT!

He's not an alcoholic, but he is my first experience with this family problem. I guess denial is a real biggie?

Roz

jrtjosey · ~*Service Worker*~

Roz - look into therapist that work on income sliding scales. You make no money, you pay no money. Great resource to utilize.

I hafve a friend similar to your D. Under employed, because it might interfere with his drinking schedule. He talks like he wants a job, but I have known him for 20+ years and I know better, it is the alcohol.

He only calls me when he needs something, then I am him best friend in the world, then I don't hear from him until the next time, unless I go out of my way to see him.

Do you want a relationship with a man that connected to him Mom? Close is one thing, controlling is another.

Good Luck - Josey

rozrn2 · Member

Isabela:

Thanks for your words of experience. What does ESH mean?

I have no intention of being his mom and have made that very clear. But I do have access to materials he previously was unaware even existed and want to make them available to him if he so desires. There won't be any marriage for a long time off now (contrary to what I wanted before I learned for certain what was wrong), until I am certain that he can be the man I need and want for a partner.

His parents DON't want to unload him. He has been set up to NOT leave. They seem to need a buffer in their marriage (long story) and comments his mom has made make it very clear to me, though he does not see it - yet. He has been the peacemaker in the family for a long time, and does now recognize that, at least. Tiny steps. He went there to stay to pay off debts he built while taking care of his alcoholic brother's wife and child while his brother did some jail time related to alcohol. He could have done the bankruptcy thing, but he has an unusual sense of how to be "a stand up guy" and decided to pay off the debt. Had he done the bankruptcy thing, he would be free now.

I don't want to mother him. I want to help where possible. We have a lot to learn from each other. He has already taught me that you can talk things out and come to a resolution, rather than angrily hang up the phone. This is something I never experienced in my dysfunctional family, and when I first asserted my needs and boundaries, I fully expected him to tell me to take a long walk on a short pier. He is a good man and I believe things will start to work in his life once he comprehends the set of rules he has been taught to function under, and finds ones that work in a more healthy way.

I do need to help him stop holding things inside and talk about them. He has denied his own feelings for so long, I think he may be truly unaware that those things are there until circumstances force them out. Or his life long training would not let him voice them, to avoid conflict. I am trying to show him that through conflict can come growth. We had an illustration of this yesterday. I hope we can continue to progress.

I so appreciate everyone's point of view on this. I need all the ways of looking at this that I can get my hands on.

I did find alanon meetings in my city!

In gratitude,

Roz

rozrn2 · Member

Josey:

Exactly. I do not want anything to do with him if he is too entangled with his mother. The under-employed thing is a problem, as it keeps him from being free to get out of that house and be on his own again. I am trying hard to simply offer help and wait until he sees the light on his own (no other way, really). I talked to him about the set up situation for him to not leave, and he said he felt that a lot of it was in his own head, that people wouldn't be happy if he wasn't there (there is a very dependent friend involved as well who did a fine set up job on him.) I guess it is just tiny steps and if I don't see that it is going to move in a healthy direction, I will have to decide to leave. It won't be the first time in my life I have lost a "love", but his is actually the first REAL love that I have had, so I am working hard to make it work. I have my own contributions to the difficulties, and am working on them as well.

I wonder if I had known all this in advance, would I have answered that email? But then, I would have missed this "wonderful" growth opportunity. Seems it never ends until the grave. I had stagnated until this came about, so that is a positive result, at least for me.

Roz

roygbiv · Senior Member

rozrn2 wrote:

In the morning I plan to question him about several things, to make sure that these were not lies as well. (Start with a clean slate?) This makes me feel like his mother, which I will point out to him. His mother is an amazing nag and, sorry to use the word, bitch. She became hypervigilant, I believe, due to his father's alcoholism. She won't even let him be alone for a moment, as he might take off and drink. I plan to tell D that I have NO INTENTION OF BECOMING LIKE HIS MOTHER.

I have harped on him to journal daily. His current homework...

Too late, it's already happened!! Plus, you're his therapist!

Hope you can see the humor there, roz. lol.

Your letter is textbook Alanon reading.

I don't like the thought of dumping people, especially someone you care for. I truly believe that alcoholics and challenging people come into our lives as an opportunity for us to grow, heal, learn compassion, etc. No one here tells you what to do. One good reason is that you'll do what you want anyway (more humor). Hopefully when you make a decision, you'll have enough time in Alanon where you can think clearly with detachment and love and from a healthy place.

I personally, am glad that I had a year and a half with a sober alcoholic (they can have some bad behavior too!) because I found comfort and clarity in Alanon. I have scars still, and am slowly getting back to having a full life of my own.

I read this in an Alanon book (paraphrased), it said: "Sometimes we want more for them than they want for themselves."

He probably likes the attention from you and his mom, but if he really wanted what you want for him, he would be doing it on his own. Maybe he has exactly what he wants already.

When I trade my microscope in for a mirror, I find lots of things in myself that need healing. I don't have the bf issue anymore, but my family of orgin has some issues that I would love to change. Will they? Probably not. Can I share my Experience, Strength and Hope? Yes. Can I mind my own business? Yes, but it's HARD to do! And Alanon helps tremendously with that.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.