Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Notice of Motion on Business Board.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

I will not second your motion nor do I have any interest in changes. MIP ha functioned quite well for a long, long while.

It is true that this is not a 'formal, approved Al-Anon' web site. That has never stopped the majority of participating members keeping topics and shares related to Al-Anon and recovery.

In spite of the header at the top of every page:

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level.

We do still have 2 other suggestions for how the board and members should conduct sharing and posting.

Al-Anon Family Group Forum
Our message board is a great place to ask questions, share your situation with others, and obtain their experience, strength and hope, with the solutions that worked for them. It also gives you a place to share your experience, strength and hope with others.

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level. When responding please consider asking yourself the question:" do my words support an alanon principle or philosophy?."

In my humble opinion, this board has been able to stay true to Al-Anon for the most part. It is only recently and by only a few members that posts have deviated greatly from that which brings us together.

There is a separate board for ACoA members/issues. There is a whole internet with other boards/forums for other issues to include trauma, abuse, PTSD, etc. 12 Step recovery programs have had great success by sticking to the suggested guidelines; MIP had greater success when members tried to as well.

There appears to be a want/need for a few members to turn MIP into a social, anything goes discussion place. If that's what the majority wants, so be it. I certainly don't want/need that and clearly have no interest in moderating such a place.

In my humble opinion again, the perpetual and continuous off-topic discussions are driving away long-term members (myself included). Debb deleted her account as have several others. Off-topic discussions are a disservice to the board's intent and lead to opinions, domination and fear of posting.

My thoughts - we either remain an unofficial Al-Anon support board intent in discussing Al-Anon topics, issues and recovery or we don't. If the latter prevails, we certainly need to disconnect this board and rename it. I find it incredibly disingenuous to suggest a formalize meeting/topic using Al-Anon principals and traditions while posting consistently about off-topic issues, subjects, etc.

I am posting as a long-time member with one foot out the door and a former moderator. The direction this board is going and has been drifting for a while is driving away members who's ESH I valued greatly. My preference would be to return to our intended purpose and focus on recovery. If you would not be able to say it in a meeting, you should not be posting it here - that's my own practice. And, for those who wonder, I most certainly would speak this candidly in a business meeting. I would not in a recovery meeting, nor would I discuss the pandemic, mental health, religion, politics, weather, etc.

The program's guidelines are truly pretty specific. MIP's intent is also pretty specific. The rules were left 'general' with a trust that members would participate in the spirit of Al-Anon recovery. I can't imagine as a collection of grown-ups in recovery that we need concise posting guidelines here, but perhaps so. I'll close with one of my own personal slogans, "Just because you can do so doesn't mean you should."

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

aww I am interested in changes IAm.

I will not contact you personally- through p.m. or the white board because I know you do treasure your privacy.

Unhappy would not describe how I feel about one or two things happening on this board. blankstare hmm ...

I am not the only person here who thinks this- not by a long chalk.

The Notice of Motion is intended as a circuit breaker. To break a deadlock that I and others perceive here.

Non-threatening, and putting principles above personalities.

So I encourage members here to have a look at the proposal and consider it carefully.

On that topic- members are welcome to p.m. me or white-board with me to discuss this further.

Thanks.

PS... members who choose to- may swap email contacts with in- just in case i am banned from the board.

We have all been through a lot together- more than likely I will not contact you first. aww

-- Edited by DavidG on Thursday 1st of July 2021 06:54:50 PM

Maresie888 · ~*Service Worker*~

I am here .

Please note as an essential worker it would indeed be hard not to post about the extraordinary challenges of going to work in these very challenging times

Just last night I dealt with a co worker who had had the second shot. Unfortunately after the 2nd shot she became quite sick

So then she had to call in sick and she was indeed really quite upset. Needless to say no one had prepared her for the possibility of a reaction. Every day I deal with colleagues who are simply completely burned out from being a essential worker. That is every day, get up go to work (sonehow) and deal with life on life's terms

One of the key ways I most certainly bond with the alcoholic is that of course I most certainly do not want life on lifes terms. I want it absolutely exclusively on my terms.

Our employer is about to go to a place of documenting vaccination. Therefore that is a very hard dilemma. Get the vcaccine cooperate then become sick. Never before have people faced such challenges.

These are unprecedented times

However I am sure that these topics can be encompassed within a term like life on life's terms

O most certainly appreciate there are limits on discussions on mental health disorders. Nevertheless there must certainly is a dial diagnosis element to both al anon and AA

I have no doubt that those topics can be shifted to be in a more confined measure.

I know that newcomers come to this board looking for referrals

Perhaps that would be a more appropriate methodology

I would also say this Board like many others has been through unprecedented times. There was the untimely death of one of the core members who held so many roles within this group

Then the group like many others was propelled into the immense chaos caused by the pandemic

I agree that general discussion of the pandemic is not appropriate. Nevertheless for some of is who have beennessentoal workers throughout this crisis the pandemic is most certainly in the background

Moreover the challenge is not over by any means

I most certainly applaud the concept of boundaries. For me being in the proximity to alcoholism is always about boundaries. Indeed I would go so far to say al anon is how I learned boundaries.

Certainly discussion about the incredible challenges of this toke can be enveloped within the topics from the daily reader and other concepts of the program

I am most certainly grateful for the passion and commitment to those who post on the topics as part of their commitment

I am also of course aware that there are other boards to post on about local issues, mental health issues and politics .

Anon most certainly is a unique program with a unique message

Personally I have found great comfort in things like soea ng er meetings where the entire ficus is in one member giving their experience strength avd hope

That is what it was like. What happened and where they are now. Perhaps it would be a suggestion to keep to such a format

Thank you so much for considering this a business meeting . Structure boundaries and focus are indeed the hallmarks of the al anon program.

As an essential worker who is laser focused on self sufficiency as a baseline to my life, my time is very limited

Self sufficiency was indeed one of

It is indeed as almost impossible to #detach# from someone n.v r one is wholly dependent upon for financial social and physical reasons

Thank you again for your service.

Maresie

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

If you are interested in changes, why not suggest them here where the majority of users hang out.

I have never suggested you could not contact me via PM or white board. My desire for privacy aligns with what's suggested on our page and our program. I have requested you not use my name 'here' which you did, I edited and I don't even know how you got it.

Not too sure what you mean by circuit breaker, please elaborate.

All members are always welcome to discuss the group, the board, the discussions, etc.

Can you elaborate on a deadlock you perceive?

Why would you think you might get banned?

I challenge any/all members who have a thought, opinion, issue to share here. So long as we discuss principles and not persons, all would be well.

I have numerous PMs where members feel unsafe at MIP. I will never speak for you and hope you find your courage to participate here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If your intent is to use the suggestions from Al-Anon on making changes to the group, here's the suggested format. To summarize, no motion can be made until it has been discussed with/by the group.

Making Decisions in Al-Anon
Making decisions is a responsibility and a function of any group or fellowship. To make decisions in AlAnon, we use an Informed Group Conscience Process that is respectful of our principles and our purpose.

As outlined below this process provides the means for:
background and current information to be made clear
questions to be asked and answered
discussion where all voices may be heard
Participation by all who wish to be heard
Expression of the minority voice
Focusing on the issue at hand, keeping principles above personalities, so that decisions are made for the good of Al-Anon as a whole.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course, using Al-Anon suggested principles to change the group from an unofficial Al-Anon group to a unofficial non-Al-Anon group does not compute in my mind; perhaps I am missing something here.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

I hear you Marasie and fully understand that in our daily life, there will be challenges and issues that come forward. I have no issue in sharing about life experiences and issues here - it's about ESH. Your shares often detail the challenges you're facing/have faced and typically relate back to a topic or a solution. I believe that would also fit reasonably well in a 'face to face' meeting.

Topics opened just about upbringing, the pandemic (in general), etc. to me have no purpose here. I've possibly been guilty - I know I post publicly when I am going to be away which would be considered off-topic. I do so to inform because I get PM(s) often asking questions, pointing out scammers, etc.

Boundaries are extremely important and is a great way to summarize where we might want to go. Thank you for speaking up.

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

confuse Maybe it is my bad, IAm... "... not in front of the children".

We get people coming in here with very precarious circumstances.

I would have preferred to have a conscience meeting- as I take this to be-

to be held on the Alanon Business Board. But, us you wish.

I used the words "circuit breaker", and "deadlock".

Ma'am, I might be a bit naive, but maybe not?

I always saw this group as being an exemplar of what Alanon could achieve.

Warts and all- as we all are, really...

...fear of being banned is very real for me- a fear that is real, even though it arises from a life of family alcoholism.

I do believe that there is a smooth path through what we are talking about... and I am trying to take that path...

So I would rather discuss those points- and other things of interest over on the business board.

A place to where all other members are invited. smile ...

Chrisp1 · Newbie

I have been reading this forum daily since John and Betty were active and I miss their wisdom greatly. I have not posted before now for personal reasons but this forum has been a tremendous help to me in dealing with my RA when he was active and in early recovery, and also in helping me learn to stick to my own side of the street. I agree 100% with Iamhere and would like to keep to the original intent of this forum, which is adhering to AlAnon principles and sharing our E,S&H. Lately, it seems as if this forum has devolved into an online diary/diatribe for a few members, and the topics are only tangentially related to AlAnon. It is very distracting and frustrating to wade through these OT musings. Perhaps another forum could be started where those who want to dwell in the distant past, or those who are suffering from issues related to the pandemic could post about their experiences to each other and leave those of us who come to this particular forum for support to grow in AlAnon principles to find that support unhindered and undistracted. Please, take what you like and leave the rest. Chrisp1

-- Edited by Chrisp1 on Friday 2nd of July 2021 09:09:41 AM

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

Welcome to MIP (formally) Chrisp1. Glad you've been around and shared 'out loud'. I thank you for your share as it helps me 'see' that what I am suggesting makes sense beyond in my own mind. Please keep coming back!

I like the suggestion of Off Topic Posts being labeled accordingly. I agree about online diary/diatribe writings being distracting. Great input/thoughts!

David - I really don't understand the inference 'not in front of the children' - every person here, whether 1 day or 1 million days is an equal member. That's how Al-Anon works; we are all equals no matter our differences/time/age/etc. As far as being banned, to the best of my knowledge, it's never been discussed/considered.

Carry on all...

More suggestions for Informed Group Conscience Process:

First, background information on an issue is presented to the Assembly.
Next, members ask questions to be sure all aspects of the issue are clear
and needed information is known.
When there are no more questions, then members may express their
opinions without judgement.
The Informed Group Conscience Process reflects the principles of:
o Talk to each other. (Equality)
o Reason things out. (Patience)
o Participate in discussions. (Honesty and generosity)
o Be open minded. (Understanding and compassion)
o Show respect. (Acceptance and trust)

Chrisp1 · Newbie

Thank you, Iamhere. I can assure you that there are many others out there who read this forum for support but do not feel free to post for various reasons. I agree that designating a post OT when not specifically AlAnon related would be very helpful to those of us mainly interested in pursuing AlAnon related discussions. Chrisp1

Maresie888 · ~*Service Worker*~

I think there are hundreds and hundreds of message boards throughout the internet to discuss off topic subjects. They are a great resource.

Boundaries are indeed essential

Around an alcoholic boundaries go AWOL

Therefore it is critical that this board be a place wfereceecvery is discussed.

Certainly it is very very hard not to see everything as recovery.

However the primary purpose of al anon is about addiction

I am certainly aware that Betty is very much missed. Betty was sticker about al anon. No.advice giving focus on the program. Betty was phenomenal about encouraging people to go to.fsce to face meetings

Betty certainly committed to this board from the moment she discovered it

Therefore it is pretty important to remember her legacy..

This was indeed once every active board with meetings.

While there are hundreds of people who use these pages.

The decline in posting is about the revolution in recovery on the internet. Keep in mind miracles was one of the first of it's kind.

There was a time before zoom

That is not a bad thing. That is a great thing. Personally I wish I had more time for podcasts .

These are as Dickens said #the best of times and the worst of times.#

-- Edited by Maresie888 on Friday 2nd of July 2021 01:38:03 AM

Lyne · ~*Service Worker*~

This is very important stuff. I hope it can get straightened out. This board has been an important part of my recovery. It's where I met Betty and she agreed to be my very first sponsor. I'm not sure how to help this situation, but I want to listen and learn.

SunnyFrogs · Senior Member

I feel this whole "motion" thing has been misleading and manipulative. I say that because the actual motion on the business board is to change the banner/heading yet it has not been mentioned once in this thread.

I would have liked it better if it had been upfront and forthright. If it's actual changes wanted on the board and not really about the banner the specific changes wanted should have been listed in the motion.

I am confused about what's going on. Is this about wanting to be able to use this board to discuss anything and everything? Is it a form of fighting back because of what happened in the "and more" thread? Is it to try to change this board into one of the many other boards/forums out there that have a wide variety of topics to fit everyone's needs and wishes? I truly don't understand what this is really about because that hasn't really been shared with us by the one that is doing the motion.

That being said, i joined here because it is an Alanon board. That's what I was searching for. I wasn't looking for a social site where people hang out and chit chat . I wanted to begin recovery. I do believe that's what others come here for too.

I don't think anything should be changed about the board. Instead I think some members just need to stick to the reason for being here in the first place(myself included). I think we all should just adhere to the suggestions of how things have always been done here.

I don't think people would talk about Alanon on a diabetes only board,as an example. And members would be expected to discuss diabetes. It would seem wrong if some members started wanting to discuss other topics or change the intent of the board. That's just how I see it.

That being said,I do not second the motion for the banner/header to be changed.(That's what the motion was stated to be)

Edited to add: All this makes me feel uncomfortable and unsafe. I am close to leaving here too. I don't like chaos and drama. It makes me feel sick inside that this seems to have started after the recent thread entitled "and more". I wish that people could have just moved on from it. I don't think all if this is necessary.

-- Edited by SunnyFrogs on Friday 2nd of July 2021 11:00:45 AM

Daffodils · Senior Member

Dear MIP members. Your impact on me is bigger than you think. I smile when I think about your compliments and words of encouragement. I silently admire you. The advice you give has made a positive difference in my life. Your love and support makes my day. Your ESH make me think twice. The existence of this board makes a positive difference in my life whether you see it or not. So, I choose to continue using MIP and feed my spirit. The light members bring/ brought into my life will continue to shine . I am grateful to have been restored to sanity and to have a willingness to grow in recovery. I will stay in the now, and let HP work on my future. Sending you love, light and blessings.

Bettertomorrow · Senior Member

I am confused as to what is really being suggested.

From my view, I personally value this board as being about Alanon topics - this is my 'go to' place where I need (and receive) support, ES and H.

I am sad to hear that people are leaving or feeling unsafe. This feels like it goes against our purpose to give comfort and support to families of alcoholics.

I hope this can be resolved. If the decision is made to turn this board into an open for all topics board (which I am not sure is even being suggested or not), then I will probably leave as it is not what I personally want - but I appreciate I am just one voice.

tiredtonite · Veteran Member

I come here for Al-Anon recovery. I began my recovery at this site twenty one years ago. I keep in mind it's not quantity but quality when it comes to recovery. I work hard to maintain what recovery I have and keep growing and expanding my Al-Anon step, tradition and service work.

Although not a world service organization approved website, this site bears the name Al-Anon and that means something to me. I feel a responsibility to carry the message of Al-Anon in gratitude to those before me who supported, encouraged and taught me through Al-Anon teachings and sharings here. If this is your first time visiting this site, hope and a better life is possible with Alanon.

I was led to this site because I was told about Al-Anon at my ex's rehab and was seeking Al-Anon recovery, solutions for living with alcoholism. If you visit the Al-Anon page here, you will find resources and links lovingly created by the founder of this site that are related specifically to Al-Anon. Other areas of this site are devoted to those with other 12 step program needs.

The banner at the top of this page was not always there. It was created because this is not an official WSO Al-Anon site but bears the name Al-Anon. There is nothing wrong with the verbiage as newcomers to Al-Anon come here with no program and need to be able to express what is going on. Al-Anon is a program of attraction not promotion. Members of this site have been introducing newcomers to Al-Anon by way of their own Al-Anon experience, strength and hope since it's beginnings. Seasoned members have continued to come to share the program and seek program related solutions too and to be of service. I learn from oldtimers and newcomers alike and am grateful.

The program is what it is. Those who wish something different, you won't find it here. Al-Anon may be around many many years but the message is consistent.

The Al-Anon Family Groups are a fellowship of

relatives and friends of alcoholics who share their

experience, strength, and hope in order to solve their

common problems. We believe alcoholism is a family

illness and that changed attitudes can aid recovery.

Al-Anon is not allied with any sect, denomination,

political entity, organization, or institution; does not

engage in any controversy; neither endorses nor

opposes any cause. There are no dues for membership.

Al-Anon is self-supporting through its own

voluntary contributions.

Al-Anon has but one purpose: to help families

of alcoholics. We do this by practicing the Twelve

Steps, by welcoming and giving comfort to families

of alcoholics, and by giving understanding and

encouragement to the alcoholic.

Whether you are reading from our first reader One Day at a Time or a more current one if you are open and willing the message of hope comes through. The beauty of the program is that it still successfully works as it was intended and continues to this day.

As was brought out by other posters, there are other sites and resources for help with other things. John took great pride in the creation of and thriving of this site. He often told me that he wanted MIP to be the number one online destination for people seeking Al-Anon and AA recovery. He was known to ban people who were disrupters who got in the way of that. As a longtime program person, he was very invested in carrying both the AA and Al-Anon message to others. I knew him well and for many years and the handful of early helpers who helped create and keep the Al-Anon meeting room up and running. Many others today are responsible for this message board's success as a safe and Al-Anon recovery focused space. At the time of his death, the continued success of this site meant a lot to John. He expressed it.

MIP is a labor of love... love of the Al-Anon. It's what kept me here and from what I have seen over the years, kept many others coming back. I'm grateful to those with an interest in Al-Anon that this site has attracted. The more Al-Anon recovery is shared the more Alanoners keep coming back. That gives me a world of Al-Anon es&h, so much more than I can garner from just my f2f meetings.

Of course Al-Anon isn't for everyone. But the internet is so vast that anyone is free to start their own idea of a 12 step program which isn't Al-Anon and fashion it to their liking anywhere on the web. If people want what you've got they'll follow you.

"Al-Anon Spoken Here"

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

aww . One time- we had chat-based meetings here. Someone might know?

But this message board has evolved as the main meeting place.

I put up a notice of motion up on the business board to create a

talking point- to place principals above personalities- and to find a

way of moving forward.

IAm has resigned as moderator. John and Betty are no longer with us-

still listed as moderators- and are no longer go-to people.

The purpose of the admins and the mods is to represent the MIP family

on this site. To deal with spam, and stuff like that.

From what I can see- keeping the group on track- with the theme of Alanon

Family groups is the responsibility of each and every one of us, expressing itself

in the form of the group conscience.

In many ways Alanon is the same the world over. Walk into the rooms in any

country of the world and you will find Alanon.

But getting down to details- group guidelines vary a fair bit. I always say that

we are "works in progress" and also our groups are also works in progress too.

In this MIP Alanon group we can cherry-pick really and select what guidelines

work best.

From time to time we need to work together- like we are doing now- and

sort out what works best.

Recently we have had former members coming back; also new members who

sometimes must wonder what the guidelines are- here.

Our welcomes says this:- "Our thinking becomes distorted by trying to force

solutions, and we become irritable and unreasonable without knowing it."

I try to avoid this state of mind. I attend a face to face meeting and I attend

this MIP Alanon meeting. I follow the readings and share regularly day by day,

week by week...

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

There is a banner at the top of the board which says this:-

The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature.

I really do think that these words cause confusion.

SunnyFrogs · Senior Member

Please be more specific because it's still confusing.

Are you wanting to know what the guidelines are or are you wanting to change the guidelines?

What specifically is it that you want here? Maybe make a simple list to make it easier for the rest of us to understand?

And what is it specifically that you would like to move forward from David?

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

aww Sunny...

aww I think that the group should be based on Conference Approved Literature, and on basic Alanon

principals- that the group agrees on.

The banner above here says the opposite. hmm ...

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

I applaud all the input and the seeking of further clarification. I think it's important that this is not a meeting. This is a forum or discussion board as described on the front page, the Al-Anon page, etc. This is not an 'official Al-Anon group' yet I do know that based on lack of availability and options, it is all that some have or will ever have for their recovery.

Whether John, Betty, myself or others are 'titled' or not doesn't matter. Every member here has equal input, equal value and an equal voice. Each of us is considered a trusted servant, hopefully arriving daily/weekly/whenever with the intent and purpose of sharing ESH to help self and others. While I no longer desire to moderate here, I am still a member who values all other members.

It might be helpful if you (David) explain what exactly is confusing about that header. It's a very basic statement that was agreed upon a while back after a similar discussion about MIP not being aligned with WSO. For myself and my shares, this makes no difference to me - alignment with WSO or not. I've always been told and tried to focus on the simple idea/concept, "Al-Anon spoken here."

If you are reading what's been shared, it's not proper to bring forward a motion without a group discussion. All members are invited and encouraged to participate in the discussion.

Only if/when the group decides change might benefit the group/site, then a formal motion can be made.

For me, personally, I am far less concerned about the header on the pages of our board and far more concerned with the off-topic, non-recovery, non-Alanon posts that litter our community. What I do know is until the changes you (David) feel are needed are clearly stated, it's difficult to have a meaningful group discussion.

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

So....I readily admit I am also confused. I'm going to clarify as best I can simply because I also feel the 'beating around the bush' and attempt at 'humor or .......' is distracting, unclear and creating more consternation than clarity.

David wants changes. That's plural as stated above. David posts a header change as a formal 'motion' on the business board. A change of our banner is suggested.

IamHere explains it's not proper for a formal motion without a group discussion. The process is outlined.

David suggests he's unhappy with happenings here and so are others. David encourages folks to contact him directly to discuss in lieu of discussing here. David suggests there's a deadlock and a need for a circuit breaker. David suggests I am not available via PM or whiteboard because I want to remain anonymous and like my privacy.

IamHere again explains the proper Al-Anon suggested process and invites others to participate. IamHere asks for clarification on the deadlock, circuit breaker and banning.

Others share and ask what's going on. Majority so far appear to prefer 'Al-Anon speak' here vs. off-topic. More ask for clarification from David.

David shares he just wants the banner changed. David gives HIS expectations of moderators/admins.

A few more clarifications requested and for me, this as well as the motion on the business board are 'clear as mud'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TT provided a lovely write-up above. What I can add to that is this board has been constant for as long as it's been around. Yes, there used to be 2 meetings a day daily for a long, long while and a chat room. For unknown reasons (to me), the meetings and chat room have kind of died down/fallen off. I know there have been meeting announcements and efforts from other service members to kick start meetings again. I am not aware of the current status.

The Business Board came about to have business meetings and group conscious. It's been around a few years and has never been fully defined. In the spirit of Al-Anon, it certainly can be a separate place to discuss issues, business, finances, etc. to keep this area more 'pure' for Al-Anon discussion and topics.

This area is for the meat & potatoes of 'our recovery'. That means all members, new, old, frequent, infrequent. It belongs to all members equally, whether you've been here 1 day or 1 million days. Moderators do NOT represent MIP. Moderators exist to keep members safe and keep MIP safe. Moderators do not choose sides, ban members, mute members, censor members, etc.

If you read my shares here, I've admitted time and again that I am not a patient person. I've worked on this and have improved/seen progress. I will readily admit that the primary reason I no longer want to moderate is because of nebulous, off-topic, unrelated, diatribes which have caused unhappy members, more PM(s) to me, which require responses - it's all about time. I am all about service - service to self & others. I'd rather spend my time sharing my ESH than fielding PM(s) which raise concerns about the ramblings of others that have nothing to do with recovery.

So, David -- please share as directly as possible what your complaints are, what changes you'd like to see, what is deadlocked, what requires circuit-breaking, etc.

For all others, while this discussion has been a bit confusing, it has also given insight into what MIP Al-Anon members desire from our board. You are also welcome to share here any complaints, suggestions for change, etc. If you aren't aware, there are other boards here for AA, ACoA, and more. Al-Anon is usually the most active and each board has different moderators, different rules, etc. As the largest, most active board here at MIP, we've been able to prosper for a long while with the least amount of formalized rules/structure.

If the majority of the members want formalized changes, then we make changes. If the majority of the members prefer as is, we leave as is. No one person runs MIP by design - it's by all of us, for all of us. As long as my name remains as a moderator (within reason), I will do my job as best I can in service to all members.

For the many who've sent PM's feeling unsafe and uncertain about MIP and the intentions of some, please know the majority truly embrace recovery and all it entails. I can't ever be certain of everyone's motives online yet find comfort in connecting with many here whom I know work a solid program and want the sanity and serenity our program provides when we work it. My PM(s) have been open always and will remain so. The suggestion contrary is not based in reality.

Happy Friday eve (to those in the same/similar timezone). I do have plans all weekend long so won't be around. It is my hope for all and our board that we can continue to reason things out and talk to each other.

Maresie888 · ~*Service Worker*~

Message boards are not generally treated as an al anon meeting

In Northern California there are al anono clubs.
They are not based on 12 step principles

Nevertheless members go there to find recovery. They must certainly find recovery there
I know many people in recovery who are looking to transform their lives who received much support on those institutions. They appreciated the people who opened them. Their legacy was and is remembered

One al anon club I attended had a semi feral cat who lived in the rooms. Very few people could sit next to that cat. When certain people shared he would get up and leave. There wee many scenes when the cat got up and went to the door when they didn't like a share. He had very very clear opinions about certain shares
That cat was welcome in those rooms every day. He never stopped expressing his opinion. He certainly had an interesting support to many shares

All are welcome at Miracles in Recovery. This board survived a great deal, recessions, natural disasters, serious illness, suicides untimely death

To even suggest it is not functioning well is somewhat curious. This board has served thousands of people for decades
I have no doubt it will continue to do so. At change in first is not going to influence that mission in any way.

Regardless of whether Betty or John are here Miracles in Prgess is one if many many recovery message boards
.
When John began the board there was no zoom
As members of this board have pointed out now menbers go to meetings all over the world by zoom

If you will recall when John was dying with a troubled king disorder one of his sole focus points was transition. From my point of view the transition was absolutely incredible. I told him so at the time

Very very sadly Betty died very suddenly
Nevertheless Betty is remembered on this board on a regular basis in an extremely fond manner
Betty no only survived many tragic events she left a legacy

Moreover during tremendous shock that surrounded Betty's death many many persons stepped up
They carried on because they had some kind of commitment to this board

In the fall of this year large scale conventions and meetings will return all over the world. People have a huge choice of beatings now because of zoom. There are incredible innovative
groups happening everyday

There are innumerable resources people can reach out to in order to seek information about alcoholism.
Information has never been more accessible than it is now

During my time on this Board the attendance had certainly gone up and down
For most of the world this pandemic had caused increased strain. So many people are working on like they may not wish to go to recovery on line

I am aware that particularly in AA the time in sobriety is a crucial reference point is key
In al anon this is not the case

Therefore every member has vote and the ability to provide input on changes in format

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the current format of Miracles in recovery

There are indeed many many al al anon sources online. I am not aware of any that are conference approved

Therefore there is no precedent or guideline regarding online group.
If a member here wants to create one perhaps they should dialogue with the WSO regarding the matter
I most certainly visit other groups all over the web. I am going to a meeting tonight that has never become a zoom meeting

That zoom meeting came out of Face to face meetings

People from all over the world show up and make time for that meeting
They are about to transition back to face to face meetings
I know that people would be wondering what I was talking about if I went to that meeting and said that I wanted to change the format. They would wonder why my focus was not on my practice .

I am thrilled to have the opportunity to go to so many sources of recovery online. I know if I don't like one I can certainly go into researching another.
I most certainly do not get to hold forth on what I want

After all I live in a world ravaged by a pandemic. My colleagues are at home sick from.getting the vaccine. I have to show up there because I am self sufficient

Therefore for me the choice of where I go to find recovery is based on one thing: simplicity

I have no interest in changing anything about this Board at this time. I have an interest in sharing my experience strength avd hope and hearing other people's ESH
That is indeed something I have been privileged to do for some time now. I rely on it. I welcome that base and I want to continue with that base. Maresie

mamalioness · ~*Service Worker*~

I joined up here, years ago and I , also, found Betty and she took me under her wing...I have grown much here, thanks to her and John and other old timers who have helped me "sort myself out"

and this is a very unsettling issue that is being brought up...I agree with IAH and also SunnyFrogs...I want it to be ALANON...not the musings (as someone else said) or off topic posts that distract me from ALANON and its principles and its purpose..

Someone suggested that we "build another board" for the "off topic" stuff and that is more agreeable to me then dumping it all on this board which for me, should stay ON topic and that is ALANON and its principles and what things used to be....

I only post on the dailies that others offer up because they stick to the Alanon purpose..How to take care of myself, having been impacted by alcoholism and drug abuse of loved ones...

If I want a "journal board" , where anything goes, I'll go find one...

Just my take..please use what you can and leave the rest

Enigmatic · ~*Service Worker*~

I do have a few thoughts on this developing set of topics, I do feel this type of discussion style is better suited for the Business thread, however, as the style of comment and callout is not typical of topic threads.

As newcomers on any online or face to face meeting tend to do, cues are taken from existing interactions to shape potential future contributions. I don't believe this should be included publicly alongside topic sharing.

As some feel differently and have taken the time to share above, I will share some basic thoughts here that I think are important to consider, and likely add more specific thoughts on the business thread.

Basic thoughts on David's suggestion to change the group page 'Signature':

* Regarding the MIP 'signature': "The material presented here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method to exchange information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal level."

o I believe it could use improvement to improve clarity and more accurately reflect the purpose and intent of the group, past and present.

o What I feel is closer to the intended:

* While this site and discussion group is not Alanon sanctioned, we do our best to uphold the 12 Steps, Traditions and Concepts of spiritual recovery as suggested by AlAnon.org. We do this in in the topics and nature of our contributions, interactions, and the process used to manage necessary group decisions.

Basic thoughts regarding topics and content on MIP

· * Alanon is a spiritual recovery program based upon acceptance of the 12 Steps, Traditions, and Concepts (Not a discussion or promotion of scientific or Therapeutic treatments or diagnoses - members are free to pursue these as they wish at an individual level, as with any topic outside the stated scope of AlAnon)

o We focus, not on the alcoholic or others, but on applying these to our own spiritual recovery

· * Alanon recovery is specific to those who are concerned about the drinking of another and the effect of the family disease of alcoholism

· * This specific purpose and set of facts set the limits for what is considered under the umbrella of Alanon, and yes, there are and must be limits.

o Alanon cannot, nor does not, encompass 'all recovery'

* Therefore, some things are within the topics Alanon outlines, some are definitely not

o Tradition 10 is often referenced here, but Tradition 3 has great guidance on this topic (p 154-160 Paths to Recovery: Alanon Steps, Traditions, and Concepts helped me on this topic greatly)

o Here are a couple highlights: (Paths to Recovery)

* "We have found that we can best serve ourselves and others by keeping it simple and focusing as a group on our Alanon approach to the family disease of alcoholism. In recovery, other problems often surface that may be better addressed in therapy or in another organization. When we keep our focus clear and our group consistently Alanon, we as individuals can then confidently seek whatever helps us in addition to Alanon.

"We are always free as individuals to seek help and spiritual comfort wherever we desire.....Some participate in therapy, treatment plans, other Twelve Step programs or community events they find helpful. They do this in their capacity as free individuals, not as AlAnon Family Group...

"In Alanon we talk about how the disease of alcoholism in a loved one has affected our own thinking and behavior. By sharing our AlAnon recovery, we offer others the courage and wisdom we have foundBy concentrating on the Alanon message, we are challenged to search within ourselves to determine how we can best apply Alanon principles to our own personal recovery...

"We do not use our group for other purposes or link side endeavors, however worthy they may be, because we want to be sure AlAnon is always available to us and others in need of the help we have found so useful."

- ODAT on Tradition 3:

· P 330 - Tradition 3 states in unmistakable terms Alanon's single-minded dedication to one common denominator: "the relatives of alcoholics, when gathered together for mutual aid, may call themselves an Alanon Family Group, provided that, as a group, they have no other affiliation. - "...through our Traditions we guard against distortion and dilution of the Alanon idea."

· P 331 "People in trouble often ask advice...'my husband does this, what should I do?'...The more experienced members realizes that we don't tell anybody what to do...

"When I am asked for advice, I know only what I would do if I were faced with the same problem, and not what would be right for another. Good advice in AlAnon takes the form of gentle guidance into Alanon principles, so people can find the right answers for themselves. - "I cannot solve anyone elses problem. I can, however, show how problem solving is done by using Alanon program."

· * There are many, many other examples of guidance that clearly shape the nature of what we share in any setting with the AlAnon name: Spiritual suggestions of recovery involving the 12 Steps, Traditions and Concepts, and principles found in Alanon Conference Approved Literature.

o If you are not a newcomer, suggesting there is good reason to delve off into other resources suggests an absence of time and/or effort invested in getting to know what Alanon recovery is about at very best, or possibly even an intentional effort to bend and steer content to personal preference, which is absolutely inappropriate and unhealthy for all, newcomer and seasoned member alike.

· * A thought on how to handle those, even newcomers, who end up off topic and back toward AlAnon principles and content:

o ODAT p 81 "People whose problems have brought them to the point of despair often try Alanon as a last resort...filled with unhappiness...their idea is to talk it all out... Fortunate is the newcomer who finds a group that permits the relief of such expression. It gives them a chance to express compassion, give encouragement and hope.

But still more fortunate is the newcomer to a group that does not allow such unburdening to continue...There is work to be done, new ideas to be learned, and for that the problems of yesterday and the fears for tomorrow must be put out of the way."

· * To summarize:

o Alanon is a spiritual recovery program based upon 12 Steps, Traditions, Concepts

* Not empirically based treatments, DSM, Google diagnosis of the day for applying labels to others, or endless tales of woe for how things were back in the day

o Pursue whatever you want that is not outlined by Alanon as an individual, on your own time, and keep it out of Alanon groups, meetings, discussions

o Do not use 'Take what you like and leave the rest' to bring un non-Alanon concepts, traditions, content or ideas/advice, that is not the context or intent behind the phrase

* This applies to other's experience and opinions in how and what Alanon concepts work for them, and an acknowledgement that what works for one person in how/when/why/where to apply a thought or principle may not work for another, as each must find and follow the guidance of their own higher power

* Attempts to use this as a carte' blanche for off topic shares is manipulative, disingenuous, and outside of the concepts of spiritual recovery as outlined by Alanon

o Part of the anonymity of the program is in dropping the need to identify who we are by our station in life, affiliations, outside groups/interests, so as to become united in what we share in common: Concern for another's drinking and how it has/continues to affect us, and how we use The Steps and Traditions to recover spiritually.

We can share that we are struggling with a general issue (fear, depression, hopelessness, discouragement, etc) and then our experience in how we are using Alanon principles to have hope, without going into lengthy detail about the specifics of (especially if polarizing issues like political, religious, scientific theory and really anything outside of our Main Purpose is part of our 'trigger') why. We are here for the recovery, not what brought you here!

o Allowing broader topic ranges, outside of what Alanon suggests, is detrimental, not helpful, to this and every other group who gathers to discuss Alanon or has Alanon in their name. Tradition 3 suggests that holding the name prescribes that we hold no other affiliations, cures, philosophies or outside ramblings as a group.

This group either is Alanon, or it is not Alanon. My life has changed for the good in incredible ways thanks to the program and those who held to the principles of Alanon rather than widening into personal, empirically approved or any other outside ideas of recovery.

I have plenty of those, I dont bring them here. This is not a space for writing exercises, endless philosophical musings, or the latest DSM category and treatment.

This should be, and can be, a place for spiritual recovery if Alanon principles are followed.

My vote is for Alanon, and Alanon only. If you want to express other interest, I absolutely encourage you to do so...just please find another outlet.

Alanon works when we work it, and when we do, unity is guaranteed...

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Yep, Paul... I agree with your first paragraphs.

I set up a forum on the business board- to discuss this vital conscience issue.

IAm I was banned from the MIP ACA Board. For something I said about Alanon. I was accused of "cross-talking alanon."

I said the same thing here- and worked through it, as you do, and nobody batted an eyelid.

I am really really scared of getting banned from here- and losing the vital contacts that I have. hmm ...

mamalioness · ~*Service Worker*~

I read the post on the business side about changing the banner and then I come here and I read this and there is nothing about this thread that relates to the topic on the business board. So like some folks said I am totally confused as to why this is all been brought up. I think Im going to sit back and read for a while and see what goes because drama and chaos and stuff that is not recovery related , I would rather just do a wait and see what happens I come here to give and receive experience and strength and hope on Al-Anon related topics and how to take care of myself and get my power back so to speak. That is probably why I post mostly on the dailys because they are in existence for a reason. To keep us focused on ourselves and what is the next right thing we can do by and for ourselves.

I am really confused and unsettled as to why these posts just one, and they and more post why are they up here. I dont know why this is all coming up. None of the stuff here even relates to the post on the business side and I am confused. So I think for myself, if I post , I think I will stick to the dailies. There are words thrown about here like circuit breakers and shake downs and other words that I just cannot get my head around. I hope this all settles down soon and we can get to the business of sharing and caring and giving ESH to each other in a loving and positive and healing manner

-- Edited by mamalioness on Saturday 3rd of July 2021 02:46:11 PM

mamalioness · ~*Service Worker*~

David since you brought up your being banned from the ACA board, your reason is incorrect. I recall an entirely different scenario. In the interest of anonymity and Privacy I will not say anymore but I do not remember you being banned for the reasons you stated and I was there. I saw a totally different provocation

-- Edited by mamalioness on Saturday 3rd of July 2021 05:49:12 PM

Chrisp1 · Newbie

Enigmatic, If you are referring to me when you mention newcomers, I have been reading this forum for probably 18 years, and was likely reading and learning before you began to contribute. I have not posted previously due to personal reasons, as I have stated. No one has influenced my opinion as I am quite capable of forming my own. I agree with most of the rest of your post. Since I think I am the only newcomer who has posted on this thread, I wanted to clarify. Take what you like and please leave the rest. Chrisp1

Iamhere · ~*Service Worker*~

I applaud and appreciate the continued dialogue. My apologies to any/all who view this discussion as misplaced. As with many things at MIP, I define the business board for actual business and how 'we' do things here at MIP are far from perfect and far from defined. In my experience, things don't get to a business meeting unless it's been discussed/shared widely with membership.

Thank you Paul especially for doing the work to line up all things here to our program. All that you shared spoke to me and better explains that I can how I feel we've strayed here at MIP. My intent was to ensure all members who want to participate can/do and I do know most here do not visit the business board even when asked to do so. I am not entirely sure why, yet it is what it is. For all who are confused, join the club. Some posts here have been edited which make this discussion even more strange/hard to follow.

Perhaps it's just me, but as we sit here as a group of equals discussing what we want/need from this board, there are again 2 completely unrelated off-topic threads posted today. As a moderator (why I don't want to moderate any more), I consider this a slap in the face simply because I have explained the moderator has to read all posts. I see a majority desiring our board to be pure recovery/Al-Anon and one resister who's going to do whatever pleases him.

I personally do not want to ban anyone yet we have made it a practice to ban spammers. We did not perfectly define 'spam' either but at what point is off-topic, diary style writings equal to spam?

My recollection of the banning on the ACoA forum is also different David. And while there was not a ban here, there was a request (formal) made to you to limit off-topic posts.

For me, as a member and as a moderator, I have come to accept that MIP, as it is currently, is not what I need in my program of recovery. I am still waiting to be relieved of my moderator duties and will decide on membership then. Thank you to all who have contributed to this discussion and the boards as well as to my recovery.

To those who feel unsafe here, my apologies. I understand and can relate. Each of us has to do what is best for our own sanity, self-care, program and recovery. For me, I am stumped how a group of 'miracles in progress' can't find a way to have a healthy, safe, sane board in spite of one dissenter. It is my hope that the membership finds a way to return to our origins, recovery, instead of driving away members.

David - please stop singling me out in your shares to justify why you do what you do or why you've done what you've done. We are unique persons - all of us - and your inference more than once that you know me better than others or did something like me bothers me, feels creepy and makes me (and others) feel unsafe.

Maresie888 · ~*Service Worker*~

Being in recovery is s complex business
I am not sure I would have the energy to believe I know how any board can be run. However a motion has been made and no one seconded it so the motion should now be shelved
At a certain point it becomes clear there is no where else to go with that motion

However I most certainly have choices.
If I have off topics I need to explore I have literally hundreds of other boards to go to. That task is far from onerous

Now that zoom has become a fact of life in
recovery circles there are hundreds of meeting rooms to go to in order to seek recovery.

I most certainly am invited to new groups onna daily basis. The search is not really difficult at all.

Moreover I am most certainly aware in AA that people were 86ed from rooms all the time. They were most certainly not banned from the entire 12 step program .
Those persons were destitute, they were living on the side of th he street. They went to missions to get their food. All they had was the clothes they stood up in. Nevertheless they were not stripped of their dignity. They were still given a great deal of respect because they were seeking recovery

They simply went down the street to another meeting. In fact they probably interacted with the same persons at that meeting

Being banned from one area does not exclude anyone from recovery. Plenty of people leave recovery rooms every day. They seek different meetings on a regular basis .

I think it is incredibly inflammatory to be speaking of #banning# #ousting# and eliminating. That is not the purpose of this meeting room.

I would most certainly appreciate it if member on this board would appreciate that such matters are generally not discussed in an open forum. That practice is very very ve uh far from the norm.

Please take note from day one 12 step programs have been dealing with the issue of having disruptive persons at meetings

Those perimeters and tactful exclusions were not carried out blue like a bar room brawl. They were dealt with in a manner of great tact and diplomacy.

Moreover exclusively in every meeting the focus was on the persons newest to the room.

Please note tact and diplomacy are a sign of grace and serenity. Indeed those who have a modicum of serenity are generally those who have boundaries

That is the one of the goals of this program.

Please keep that in mind. Civility is lost in many alcoholic homes. Thst is not the case on this board

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

smile We had a founding member of ACA in our ACA board.

We were co-sponsors to each other- and talking a lot through the p.m.

He was moving in his car in Nevada- but he was hoping to have a room- was working towards this.

One day he was zapped- for something he didn't do. Gone forever. smile .

A devastating experience. hmm blankstare

I was really triggered by this b-cos I had a brother in Texas- in much better circumstances- but an illegal immigrant.

And the way he was treated in the USA- we would never ever do to a US citizen in NZ.

This was not AA. And this is not the USA. We do not have big sharing events on the 4th, here in Ao-NZ.

July 4th was the birthday of my AF.

Our national day is on the 6th of February.

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Maresie888 wrote:

Please keep that in mind. Civility is lost in many alcoholic homes. Thisis not the case on this board

Sorry ma'am- but this is the very opposite of my experience with MIP groups- since I have been here.

[One time I would have been banned for quoting another member. Here. But this is a conscience issue, as far as I am concerned- and not a personal sharing thread.]

Thanks.

Maresie888 · ~*Service Worker*~

Please note I would like to formally ask for this motion to be shelved

Thank you

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

With respect to your motion- please refer it to the Alanon Business Board, Maresie.

This thread is only the notice of motion, as required through standard meeting procedure. Thanks.

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

smile It's a sunny Sunday afternoon here, in NZ. Just put the washing out.

Got family coming round soon. For me personally I will adjourn in about 10 minutes.

Will be back here on Monday, NZ time.

mamalioness · ~*Service Worker*~

I second that!! I , too would like to formally ask that the motion be shelved...

IamHere, I hope you stay, in whatever capacity you feel safe with, but I hope you stay!! That said, I , as much as I enjoy your posts, would want you to be safe and if you no longer feel safe here, I get it!! SAD but I get it!!! I support you in doing what is the next right thing by you....

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

Mama- I started this thread- and am ruling your motion out of order. blankstare

I would prefer it if you started your own thread- and a preferably on the Alanon Business Page.

There are two of us here- who do want this to happen. Please comply. aww

Maresie888 · ~*Service Worker*~

Please take note that I believe the request to shelve the motion is carried at this time
Thank you for this discussion

DavidG · ~*Service Worker*~

With all due respect Ma'am- a notice of motion has to sit on the table for two weeks plus-

to allow all financial members to be informed and to participate.

I ruled out the motion for very good reason.

There is already a motion on the floor- on our business board- and you may have to wait your turn.

This may come as a surprise to you- but this location- in international waters- is no longer a kangaroo court.

Thanks, for your service.