YEP....not that I think my Ex's cheated, but they were unfaithful to me putting the liquor before me....and yea, drunk they are one way....recovering another....and yea, the things they did while drinking, another, but thank God for Alanon because I got to focus on taking care of me, and not having to focus on the alcoholics in my life.....Alanon taught me to focus on me...Take care of me......Work on MY issues and learn a new way of living, and I can detach from them , let them learn from their mistakes, reap what the sow , so to speak....

I always say....I didn't cause them to drink......could never control them and their drinking and for SURE I am NOT gonna cure them....Alcoholism is an addiction...it is arrested...put in remission...there is no cure...same as me and my addiction to control and Codependency.....I have to work my program every day to stay emotionally sober.....

Welcome to Alanon and the freedom it can give to you

Thank you so much!! This really helps!

 

 

Gretel welcome to the family and thanks for jumping right in with your concerns.  MIP offers Experience Strength and Hope to all who come here looking for answers, sanity and guidance.  

I had no idea the quantity of affairs I would witness with my Alcoholic/Addict wife.  In fact she once asked me if it would be okay for us to have other partners which blew my mind.  "of course not.  How can we hope to have a marriage and family under those conditions", I answered not knowing that to an alcoholic/addict that question might often be nonsense.  To her my reaction was non-sense and I learned then the condition of our relationship.  She associated with a group of addicts and affairs were usual under the influence.  I didn't know and didn't know that I didn't know yet still my mind and intentions were about having a "normal life".   It couldn't happen under  those conditions which led to divorce.  

For me I was looking for steady relationship and I looked and looked which included often a different sexual partner hoping this one would be the final one.  I finally arrived at the thought and feeling condition that I didn't need to be married and became single until  my present spouse followed me to Hawaii and announced I wanted to be married...too you.  I thought about it seriously not needing to be married to anyone and then (relapses??) considered it again.  We have been married for 28 years the longest of all my marriages and relationships. I was not as attached mentally and emotionally to this wife as I was to my addict/alcoholic and have come to re-understand the depth of a co-dependents addiction. 

I have learned a new understanding of Love in the program given to me by a female member who had been in similar situation as me.  "Love is the complete and total acceptance of every other human being for exactly who they are" which very deeply altered my definition and my understanding and behavior.   It levels the playing field and increases the amount of humans beings I can and will be in love with.  My HP governs that definition as it is very near his own.

Affairs are not love.  They are just nerve ending excitement just like getting drunk.

Keep coming back (((((hugs)))))  

Thank you everyone! You all have really helped me.

Excellent points! Thank you for sharing!

Big difference between someone who had a spouse cheat on them...verses someone who DID NOT have a spouse cheat on them.

I wonder who can truly feel what it is like to be in those shoes.

Program? Yes, absolutely. Everyone can speak to program. As far as feeling what it's like to be in those exact shoes, to wiggle your toes and feel what the inside of those shoes feel like, to actually lay next to that person and know what it feels like, but, because you can't put it into words, your emotions, your feelings are something that someone, some people might not understand...well, that's a different story. There is a difference between empathy and sympathy. There is a difference between loss and trying to relate to loss, or saying that you do. The alanon program is there to help those who want it to, embrace it, are open-minded, and who want to commit to it. It's not for everyone. But I know it worked for me...what I put into it, and what I got out of it.

I completely agree -- there is no shame in feeling WHATEVER you are feeling. Period. The feelings are our own. What we do with them, how we manage them, cope with them, handle them, and so on...that is what the alanon program helps us with. And each person's program and recovery is their own.

Some people look at the Mona Lisa, or the Guernica, or the Caravaggio - The Beheading of Saint John the Baptist, or Jackson Pollock's One: Number 31, 1950, whatever it might be...some people might see the most beautiful piece of art of all-time, ever, in the history of the world. Maybe one person see that. Others might see something that makes no sense whatsoever. My perspective...neither is wrong.

All the best.

-- Edited by Bo on Friday 15th of May 2020 11:42:35 PM

-- Edited by Bo on Friday 15th of May 2020 11:43:29 PM

-- Edited by Bo on Friday 15th of May 2020 11:44:52 PM

Interesting point Maresie...yes, people do get sober in rehab. Of course they do. In my experience, it's the ones who truly want to get better, get healthy, get and stay clean and sober, and do so one day at a time. They come out of rehab...and that's what they want. That's what they focus on. That becomes the most important thing in the world...staying sober...one day at a time.

I didn't get healthy UNTIL I looked at my expectations. They were the major reasons I ended up -- angry, sad, frustrated, disappointed, and so much more. For me, there is a big difference between my expectations of the alcoholic and my expectation or want of companionship, and a companion, a partner, etc., who is _____________ (fill in the blank). One is an expectation of another person -- an alcoholic. The other is my want, what I expect in a relationship, a marriage, a partnership, etc. As soon as I turn to the other person -- then it is an expectation of that other person. In alanon there is a saying -- high hopes and low expectations. In having acceptance, that I can't control it, cure it, fix it, etc., I can become free, free of the desire to try and do or get those things. How can I expect the alcoholic to _______________ (fill in the blank)? The alcoholic is emotionally and spiritually bankrupt. Their thought process, their thinking, decision making, etc. -- all of it has become corrupted. For years, I asked the alcoholic to do things she just wasn't able to do. But I thought she could. I asked to be a certain way, but she just wasn't able. But I thought she was. I wanted her to behave certain ways, but she was just absolutely unable to do so. But I thought she would. While there is no right or wrong...who is the one to look to for me being angry, upset, disappointed, etc.? Once I realized it was ME...that's when I was able to begin to get better, get healthy. That was the beginning of my recovery.

I've been in the rooms of alanon for many years, and my perspective has always been...the "hope" that they talk about in alanon...is hope for us. The steps, the slogans, the mindset and methodology behind the alanon program...is about US. Hope that we can get better, change, get healthy, have acceptance, and so on. Now, acceptance doesn't mean I have to accept unacceptable behavior, being treated poorly, verbally abused, bullied, manipulated, and so on. No, that's not what acceptance is about!

Nothing changes if nothing changes...and the change that statement refers to, is change in US.

I don't know about sober rehab etc. I know for me, i didn't know I was an alcoholic until I married one and used his addiction and mine to he as a very handy way of avoiding all responsibility for all of my issues until that just became impossible and too far high a cost paid in comparison to benefits received. I agree desire is absolutely key to sobriety. Desire not for sobriety, but the things which only come from it. Dignity was mine.

I'll be honest Gretel. I've had my partner screw around. Actually I think way more times than the times I formally know about. And I didn't " get over " it until I got to a certain space/place in recovery. It was at that space when I was able to truly accept, understand and believe that his infidelity ( and let's be real here, how good could it really have been given that these are alcoholics we're talking about), his infidelity had nothing to do with me. By that I mean no part of it was a reflection on me as a person, woman, lover, mother or wife. No, it was purely a reflection on him. Knowing that head heart and spirit helped me to stop hurting in the places I was already a bit damaged even before him. I know it hurts but you may try to tell yourself the truth of another's wrongdoing. In this instance, a cheaters cheating is a reflection on their shortcomings, not their partners. Do something nice for yourself. Order bubble bath, get a facial (if it's permitted) and exercise is always good for the whole being. Take care! And keep coming back.

Gretel, I hear you. Loud and clear. I think I felt exactly the same way you are feeling. At least from how you are expressing it, that's what is resonating with me. My wife cheated on me, and I know how I felt -- then, over the course of time, and now. What I can say, for me, is this -- no one can tell you how to feel. You are going to feel how you feel, and I think that's OK. No matter what, the spouse that cheated, who they are "being" in and around their infidelity, is absolutely going to have an impact on the other spouse. It has to. If it doesn't, then the person is oblivious, lying, or in denial.

That said, from my personal experience, my person feeling -- there is a very big difference between the "reflection" of the person, and the emotional elements of the infidelity. To me, they were completely and totally mutually exclusive. The infidelity may have been the catalyst for both, but they were not related and did not coexist for me. One had nothing to do with the other. More importantly, while I never once felt that my wife's cheating had anything to do with me in any way, shape, or form, and was no, zero reflection on me -- that in and of itself did NOT help me in anyway deal with the emotional elements of the fact that my wife cheated. It also had nothing to do with the fact that -- integrity -- which is innate, and a core component of who I am and how I live my life, now was an issue. Was it not an issue "because she was drunk" -- and if that's a question you can answer yes to, that's great. That is without question a to each your own thing. My wife said she was trying to do everything she could to -- move past it, let it go, earn back trust and respect, and so on...but she said I was the one who couldn't do that, and I was preventing "us" from moving on. Interesting. She said she never, ever lied to me after the cheating, about anything! But she did. It might have been about minor things, or a major thing, but she did. So, is that acceptable behavior? Am I to simply say, how important is it? Should I say that's not really her, she would never do that if she weren't drunk? Or, could I say, she's an alcoholic and I have to have acceptance, because this is who she is, she's emotionally bankrupt, her thinking is corrupted, and so on? I guess that's up to each person.

My wife too "forgot" what she did. I know she did. She even said at times she did. And she behaved like she did. OK, got it. It wasn't as bad for her, because she forgot it. My wife didn't get hurt by what she did...and that came out very clearly in therapy. The therapist ended up expressing that she felt I was harboring no ill-will, no anger or animosity, etc., about what happened, and my wife's accusations that I did, and that I was preventing "us" from moving past it -- had more to do with her feeling I was not "accepting" of how she was living her life. The therapist ended up explaining to my wife that I was completely accepting of how she was living her life...just that I no longer was willing to "fix" the problems that were created by how she was living her life. The therapist explained it perfectly!!!

I feel it's OK to be hurt. I feel it's normal. While it's great to feel it is no reflection on you, that doesn't help the being hurt. I get that. That's how I felt. Just because her cheating spoke to her, not me, about her, not me, and was allegedly indicative of her "shortcomings" and "problems" -- why does that have to be OK with me? Acceptance? Or, is it "Acceptable Behavior"...I for one do not collapse the two.

If you can get past it, you will. You will stop hurting -- if you stop hurting -- when you're ready. The hurting will change over time. It will take on different feelings, emotions, and you will have a different perspective in and around the hurting, and all of the other emotions as well. What should you be doing? Feel what you feel. Accept those feelings. Don't fight them. Feel them. Then what I did was surrender to them. I didn't fight them, force them down, away, etc. I let them drape over me, but not consume me...and then I was able to let them go. Actually, I didn't have to consciously let them go...they just slid away from where they were with me. It was very freeing actually, almost like a transformation, but in a spiritual sense.

Work with your sponsor, lean hard into the steps, work the steps, and see where the journey leads you. It will lead you to a place where...you will know when you get there. For today, how do you live? One day at a time. Keep your head where your feet are.

You are very welcome Gretel...the feeling of not being alone was always very comforting for me. Even being a leader, not a follower, I took comfort in knowing there were other people in the room who had seen what I saw, went through what I was going through...and HAD DONE IT SUCCESSFULLY...and HAD GONE OUT THE OTHER SIDE. That is recovery. Keep posting, keep sharing...take what you like and leave the rest. Use what applies to you, keep trying and trying, and then keep trying more. All the best.

Iamhere,

Thank you! I am currently looking for a new therapist. I was seeing one but it wasnt a good fit. I am also looking for a couples therapist as well. Hopi g I find a good one that will help us and help my husband understand the pain Im in.

 

 

I hear the voice and direction of a sponsor and in the past mine,  Thanks for the memory a4l I always can use the memory.  ((((hugs)))) 

I really hope Gretel is doing well, especially being she is a newcomer/beginner, and I hope she wasn't turned off, hurt, offended, or anything of the like.

I have no idea where everyone else is from, but where I come from there is a saying..."the beginner/newcomer is the most important person in the room"...and seasoned people, people with time in the program, people who have gotten better, gotten healthy, people who are grateful, and people who are compassionate...they understand why that saying is true and important.

All the best Gretel.

Bo--Thank you for your posts.

As I told Gretel--I haven't been there, and I don't think I could bear it. And I printed what you said about thinking the alcoholic was capable of doing things she was not.

I keep expecting my dry but unrecovered alcoholic to be able to behave in ways that he cannot. Lord! I hope I can get this before I die.

Bless us and keep us, every one.

Temple

Hi gretel here,

Ive been doing ok I guess. Lots of tears but still pushing on. My husband and I saw our couples therapist the other day for the first time and during our session I told him that I felt he was the 3 different people. He was stunned! He couldnt understand why I cant just see him for the man he was before the drinking. I tried to explain that its just not the same. The love for the person I married just isnt the same. I still love him very much but now theres something missing. I feel the only way we can move forward is to start over.
He just doesnt get it. He thinks that now that hes clean I should be able to move on and just pick up where we left off before the drinking.

I just cant.

Its so frustrating!!!! I feel so alone in all of this! And its very exhausting.
Im tired of trying to explain how I feel and not having it heard! Im tired of my puffy swollen face from all the crying! Im tired of always feeling defeated! Im tired of wondering if this is it for me? Is this my life now? Is this all I have to look forward to?


I just have to push on and prey that it will get better.

Thanks for listening.

Gretel - I am sorry that you don't feel heard! I can so relate to that and it was so frustrating, sad, and just plain maddening. When I would talk with my sponsor and say exactly what you shared - is that how it's always going to be? I was seriously full of sadness, anger, fear and frustration and it really felt that way! She would gently remind me that keeping myself in the present would be healthier and projecting was pointless because we really do not know what the future holds, not even tomorrow.

I had to do some deep soul-searching and separate out what I genuinely loved about my AH from what I thought I was 'loosing or missing out' because of the disease. We lost tons of time, trust, intimacy, and much, much more - no doubt. What I found though is what I fell in love with was still there - just clouded by the disease and my own thoughts about the disease. He was still funny, charming when he wanted to be, good provider, helpful when asked, and much, much more. I had to pause and process simply because my mind was so stuck in the mayhem the disease brought.

He will probably not ever understand what you feel. Just as you don't understand his 'feeling' that all should be well now and we should just carry forward. Men and women really do think and process differently and having a same sex sponsor was 'gold' for me! I was able to share all that I needed to with her and she was able to share what had worked for her and I learned many shades of gray that did not exist in my black/white thinking.

So - I agree with what's shared above me - stick with Al-Anon and keep the focus on you! Work to heal and process for you, not for him or the marriage. Allow yourself to feel and process with another who can understand your place vs. his place. Keep coming back - there is always hope and help in recovery.