As a newbie, beginner, newcomer, whatever you want to call it...it is very hard to learn even the most "basic" tools, slogans, resources, etc., of the alanon program. Why? Because in my experience, and I've been in the rooms of alanon for 25 years...even the most simple, is not so simple. Sure, intellectually, we understand the words, the so called definition of the words. How hard can it be to intellectually understand the word "detachment" -- right? However, that's not what alanon is about. It is not about a definition of a word.

There is meaning, methodology, understanding, practical application, connection, and so much more, in and around the word. It's more than a word. It's a tool. It requires application, implementation. There is the necessity for a person to understand the concept, and be congruent, in alignment, with what the concept/tool is designed to do and what the intended outcome is. Go ahead, try and detach with love without truly having acceptance. Try to detach with love while harboring anger and resentment. Detach with love while you are trying to convince the alcoholic they are destroying their life, and your life as well. Save your time and efforts, and your frustration...it won't work!!!

People who detach with love, or even just detach...do they check their motives? Are they open and honest with themselves? Really open and honest. Are they open and honest and make themselves vulnerable to their sponsor? How do you see texting back and saying "I am really pissed off at you and I would rather not talk or text with you today" -- how do you see that as "loving detachment" as you call it?

You are new. You are jumping in head first -- into the deep water -- and trying to do something that takes understand. It's like in college -- certain courses have pre-requisites. Detachment has some pre-requisites... if you want to do it right, have it work for you, and have it make you feel better and make progress in order to get healthy. You asked "or am I being cruel?" -- well, perhaps that wasn't your intention, and while you are not supposed to be impacted or manipulated by the alcoholic's reaction, YOU and your intentions, and motives -- your truth -- is your standard and benchmark.

My sponsor used to say that if the alcoholic is mad at you, that means you are probably doing something right. But he meant that based upon me "doing the right thing" and practicing, working, doing my program. Your AH was mad at you, but that doesn't mean you were "doing something right" so to speak. It is not that cut and dry. There is meaning and understanding behind the entire alanon program.

Detachment doesn't mean ignoring. Detachment doesn't mean the silent treatment. Detachment at the beginning does not automatically mean there is love. There didn't seem to be a lot of love going on between you and him during those moments. Remember, love can be a verb. Check your motives. Were you being kind? Were you being true to yourself while having compassion?

There is soooooooo much in and around what appears to be be the simple topic of detachment.

So, what do you do? Go to face to face meetings. Find a sponsor. Start doing the work -- actually learning, practicing, and working the alanon program.

Bo- thank you for the in depth explanation on detachment. I know I cant expect to be perfect right away or even understand the concept of detachment, because I dont. From what I see- it seems to be that detaching is completely ignoring our feelings and emotions just for the sake of keeping the peace. I must be completely missing the point?

 

 

((((Ela))))  you're working it and even if it doesn't feel good or right at the moment some of what your are doing will be part of your detachment.  I was raised metaphoric meaning I see the picture...I got a picture of detachment and then practiced and practiced.  

Detachment didn't have any negative meaning or principle once it started to come alive.  You are a nice person, a loving caring person and that is positive.  Detachment for me became cutting myself loose from the negativity such as snipping a thread that was keeping me connected.  I knew what was going on and didn't participate in it.  I knew my alcoholic/addict wife was what and where she was at the time and didn't make it part of my attitudes and feelings.  I loved her and didn't clutch to the problem of her addiction.  She could be drunk and or high and for the moment that is where and how she was not me.  After a time the detachment had to be separation and then divorce and yet even to this moment I love her and wish her so well.  While I detached she grew in her own recovery and the last time I saw her she was happy, healthy, sober and clean.

I learned from another persons ESH a very different way of having my alcoholic/addict in my life which came with the saying, "I love you.  I like having you here and I don't need you".
Try looking at that perspective.

Keep on keeping on....(((Hugs))) 

Elabella - detachment is a great topic! My experience is that I struggled with detachment until I had solid, healthy boundaries in place. When I first arrived, I felt very broken. I too was super sensitive and took everything personally. I spent way too much time overthinking every thing, and making everything more complicated than necessary. I also spent way too much time J-A-D-E(ing) - Justifying, Arguing, Defending, Explaining. Situations like yours, where you ordered what was asked for and then got sniped at for the outcome would also hurt me ... followed by anger.

Working this program helped me see that I was not very good at feeling my feelings and responding in a healthy manner. Accepting that alcoholism is a disease and I was affected by it was a challenge. It had been far too easy for far too long to just blame the disease/diseased and believe that I would be fine if only .... 

I also learned that I took way too much personally, and when another is raging at me, to me, about me - it's really not about me - it's about them.  I just don't have to absorb that negative energy and it was suggested that I keep a Q-TIP in my pocket to remind me to Quit Taking It Personally.  They are not bad people, they are sick people.  I can love my A(s) and dislike the disease.  This did not happen overnight, practice, practice, practice is how my heart/mind have aligned, and I focus on progress only - not perfection.

I am like Jerry - I had to snip that connection to the disease and the diseased to be returned to sanity. For me, two key points stuck in my brain -- just because the rope was offered, I didn't have to pick it up for tug of war.  In my home, we were all active in the 'dance of denial'.  I wanted things different/better and felt others did not.  Yet, I would act/react in the same way/manner and expect different results, which is the simplest definition of insanity.  If I wanted a sane mind, family, home, I needed to focus on changing that which I can - me, my actions, my reactions.  It's not easy, but it is possible.  Small changes in me resulted in different dynamics, and learning that Yes, No, I'm Sorry and You're right (even when they are not) are complete sentences helped greatly!

The second was the suggestion of not going to the hardware store for bread! What I learned is that my feelings are real, valid and my own. Others may/may not relate and may/may not feel as I feel. However, expecting a sick person (alcoholic) to understand and respond in a healthy manner to my feelings was unrealistic as they are just not able. Instead, Al-Anon members suggested I process my feelings with a sponsor or another member in recovery.

This thread gives some neutral responses to 'sticky situations' that allow me to acknowledge another person without picking up that rope! https://alanon.activeboard.com/t64765158/fyi-might-be-helpfulneutral-responses-for-detaching/

In Al-Anon, I also learned that I had a tendency to enable and engage well beyond my 'scope'. I keep this program as simple as possible, and use the Serenity Prayer often to determine what's mine and what's not mine. Others who came before me suggested that enabling was simply doing for others what they could/should do for themselves. In your scenario above, with the tools of this program, I would simply just say, "I am sorry your food was not as desired." Nothing more and nothing less. The next time my A wanted me to order their food, I would simply hand them the menu and say, "Here you go!" Nothing more and nothing less. In both scenarios, I can practice being kind, while detaching and allowing others to manage their own stuff.

I do understand that it would be lovely to expect those we love and who love us to be kind, caring, responsible and loving on a regular basis. What I learned in Al-Anon is my expectations aren't often aligned with those of others, and instead of focusing on what other's are doing that is wrong, hurtful, crazy, etc. - focus on what is good, working, etc. Again, in your scenario above, removing yourself and listening to music in another room is an excellent choice and practicing detaching! My A(s) also used to follow me to continue with 'making their point' as well, so I put a lock on my door (change the things we can). That lock has been busted and picked in the past, which then led to new boundaries and actions.

There is no perfect way to work this program nor is there a perfect way to detach. We each are allowed the dignity and respect to listen, learn, practice, practice, practice. I view Al-Anon as a quality not quantity program - length of time is not nearly as important as level of effort! The more I practice keeping the focus on me and processing with healthy people, the more serenity I attain.

Here's what the program says about detachment:

Detachment is neither kind nor unkind.  It does not imply judgement or condemnation of the person or situation from which we are detaching.  Separating ourselves from the adverse effects of another persons alcoholism can be a means of detaching: this does not necessarily require physical separation.  Detachment can help us look at our situations realistically and objectively.

Alcoholism is a family disease. Living with the effects of someone elses drinking is too devastating for most people to bear without help.

In Al-Anon we learn nothing we say or do can cause or stop someone elses drinking. We are not responsible for another persons disease or recovery from it.

Detachment allows us to let go of our obsession with anothers behavior and begin to lead happier and more manageable lives, lives with dignity and rights, lives guided by a Power greater than ourselves. We can still love the person without liking the behavior.

IN AL-ANON WE LEARN:

Not to suffer because of the actions or reactions of other people

Not to allow ourselves to be used or abused by others in the interest of anothers recovery

Not to do for others what they can do for themselves

Not to manipulate situations so others will eat, go to bed, get up, pay bills, not drink, or behave as we see fit

Not to cover up for anothers mistakes or misdeeds

Not to create a crisis

Not to prevent a crisis if it is in the natural course of events

By learning to focus on ourselves, our attitudes and well-being improve. We allow the alcoholics in our lives to experience the consequences of their own actions.

Keep coming back - there is always hope and help in recovery.

Ela, another thing that really helped me with detachment and detachment with love, was the reality that as a newcomer, detachment with love was a very foreign concept. It is hard to love someone who is punching you in the face, unprovoked, every single day. Sometimes multiple times a day. So, if that's how I felt, how could I detach with love?!?!?! I couldn't. In reality, you can't. It's BS, pardon my language. So, don't expect to be able to do something that you simply don't have the mental capacity and tools for right now.

So what helped me? To KEEP IT SIMPLE. People around here don't do that in my opinion, because this is an impersonal medium, so it's visual/reading only. Detaching with love can be a very advanced topic, one that comes after getting a handle on many other things -- acceptance, surrender, letting go, getting past anger and resentment, and letting go of those, simply detaching period, not just with love, and other things to. Understand also -- and I don't think you will get a lot of it here because the people here aren't just alanon people -- but detachment with love can be a tremendous gift to the alcoholic. You see, when alanon was founded, detachment was developed as a way to relate and cope with an alcoholic family member. Detachment with love is more something you can use and implement with anyone -- and with an alcoholic it is a gift -- allowing them the dignity of their own recovery, and allowing them to figure out on their own whether or not they want to stop drinking, get clean and sober, live a happy and healthy life, etc. We can allow them to make their own decision and not have the constant confrontation with US trying to force them, control them, convince them, and so on and so on.

Why is this so? Because although people here don't like to admit it, and say it, one of the foundation principles of alanon is that the alcoholic will not stop drinking UNLESS and UNTIL they want to. Period. And there is nothing you can do about that. Period. In addition, the alcoholic will not and cannot feel, experience, and learn from their own actions, unless they feel and experience and learn from the consequences of those actions! Period. Fluff it up anyway anyone likes, but that's the reality.

We, us, the families, friends, loved ones of alcoholics -- we, here in alanon -- we try and fix, protect, help, cure, and whatever else. We try and do all those things to and for the alcoholic. If we do -- we will get better too! That's the sickness...and it is a falsehood. It is a myth. We enable. We do many things -- that are not healthy for us or for the alcoholic!

Many people in alanon interpret detachment with love as -- ignoring, threatening, controlling, convincing, knowing what is best, manipulating, and more. I've heard people say they are detaching with love when giving their loved one the ultimatum of if you don't go to rehab/treatment, then I am throwing you out of the house, or I am leaving you, or something of the like. Why do we do that? We are desparate, we are broken, we are sick, and we will do anything to make the pain go away. This is a bluff -- a threat -- which we think can use, we think fear and a threat can force the alcoholic to get help and quit drinking!

Even today, seasoned people misinterpret what detachment really is. How can you detach, even without love, yet be there in a healthy and supportive way for the alcoholic, and not enable, but not get caught up in the drama and hostility, and so on. THAT'S WHY WE WORK A PROGRAM!!!

When I talk with people I sponsor about detachment -- one of the first questions I ask is -- what are your needs, YOUR NEEDS, for you, outside of and beyond the needs of the alcoholic or addict. Then I ask -- can you take care of you, take care of yourself...if the person you love doesn't get help, doesn't quit, doesn't get clean and sober, and so on. Makes you think right? Well, it should! Too many people here dance around the reality of the situation. People die from the disease of addiction. People in alanon die from the stress, anxiety, and related situations.

Detachment with love is nothing more than allowing the alcoholic or addict to feel and experience the consequences of their own decisions, actions, and mistakes. And as I said, when you are healthy, and you are doing it with the proper mindset and motives -- it is a gift. You are allowing them to make a decision on their own. It's freeing for you. Very few people achieve that -- as they want to control, force their will, make sure the alcoholic understands what they are doing and the damage they are causing. Let's be honest, in that mode, we know better. We want the alcoholic to do what we want -- because if they do, they will get better and so will we. Oh how sick we are, LOL.

Detachment with love is nothing more than good parents do -- allowing their children to grow up, and start to make their own decisions, and learn from the consequences of those decisions. Don't we love our children enough, and care about their well being, and their growth, and so much more -- to allow them to learn from their mistakes. Detachment with love -- when you are healthy-- also means being responsible for ourselves!!! We can think, not control, and make decisions without forcing our will and without ulterior motives, without wanting to control the alcoholic, without wanting to be right! Without any of the unhealthiness that we have often lived with.

You see, in reality, we are powerless over much more than we may think or like or want. We are powerless to control another person. Sure, try manipulation, sales, convincing, being slick, sly, cunning, all that. That aside. We are powerless over another person. Far too many people here have been trying to control and stop the alcoholic and addict and simply trying to change that person for a very long time...and it doesn't work. We see it here too...people trying to control others. LOL. Personally, I couldn't care less, LOL. But some people take recovery very seriously. Others don't. To each their own. But, in trying to control others...it doesn't work. Sorry, but it doesn't. We become immersed and enmeshed with an addict or alcoholic, but we cannot control them. In short -- the fact is -- we cannot stop an addict or alcoholic was using drugs or drinking...if they don't want to. Period.

When you truly get acceptance, and understand this methodology -- detachment with love becomes a gift to the other person...and to YOU, and for YOU. It becomes an opportunity for the addict or alcoholic to get help...if they want to!!! They. Not YOU.

For me -- the pinnacle of detaching with love is being able to let go, detach, let the person and their decision be their own and let go of that, feeling, knowing that I am healthy, and happy and I am doing what is best for that person, even if they don't think so...and no reacting with anxiety, people pleasing, fear, anger or any of that other poison and venom. Detaching with love offers freedom. It offers being who you can be at you core -- who are you being -- and be clean, clear, having dignity, grace, class, self-respect, and integrity. I live my life, and that is my core. I can say that while my wife was in the throws of her disease. Once I found recovery...I was able to really know, and be comfortable, and like, and love, who I was being.

So, start at the beginning. Learn how to crawl. Learn how to walk and stumble, and fall down. Learn how to walk. Then run.

All the best.

2HP wrote:

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If anything is "hard" for you, my friend, just simplify it for yourself. I would say drop the "with love" part for now, I couldn't understand that in the beginning either and probably embraced it simply as "stop fighting him... Let him go.... and go get a life for myself... " that kind of thing.

I so hope that you are attending F2F meetings because when I was a newbie trying to understand al-anon on the internet, it only led to chaos and confusion. the sponsor I got later had to help me un-do some of the concepts I misunderstood. You so deserve a physical sponsor embracing you and personally showing you one tool at a time and how to use it the right way for your situation.

Keep it Simple for now.

A simple acronym that helped me early on was: DETACH - Don't Even Think About Changing Him.

It supported detachment as just being "a witness" to him and his journey from a safe distance (mental or physical, we each get to decide this).... it supported me to stop engaging and reacting to him.... no longer believing everything he said.... I stopped allowing his chaos to attract me... detachment helped me to know that what HE did was NOT a reflection on ME... (I learned that alcoholics blame everything on everybody but themselves as a way to protect them from having to take responsibility...)

Sometimes detachment is just doing nothing or remaining quiet... or not letting the behavior of others cause me to suffer... it could mean simple disengagement and nothing more... freedom from the chaos... moving away from situations that begin to irritate you.... not being dependent on him for good feelings....

Just for today, you might choose one simple concept of detachment that brings you more peace. Whenever you move in the direction of (((((peace))))) for yourself...

that is "success" in Al-anon!

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I so agree with you!!! Clear, concise and to the point. Excellent guidance!!! Thanks!!!

I found detaching with love difficult because I had judged the actions and the other people and was filled with anger and resentment. Once I worked the steps examining my motives, I let go of my anger and resentment so that detachment was a breeze

Detachment doesn't mean we become absent and void of feelings.

Detachment for me means I just make a conscious decision not to take on other people's responsibilities - that means from things like paying a bill to not being responsible for how someone feels.

Detachment means I separate myself from the other person's mess and bring the focus onto myself.

If I am disturbed, yes, there is probably something for me to look at there. Jerry said this once a long time ago in the forum that sure - someone may something hurtful to me and I get upset with it, but once those feelings are in me, they're now MY responsibility. What do I choose to do with those feelings? That's where understanding what my morals are comes into play. So for instance I may be angry with someone... detachment in that aspect would mean that I take a personal inventory around it, make whatever amends *if* necessary, and then ask myself how I can do something different moving forward - detachment in this situations means I'm no longer seething at the other person because I realize their behavior is a reflection of them-self and that I ultimately want to take the high road and not stoop to their level and dance the dance with them.

That said, however, you still have every right to feel upset with bad manners and emotional abuse. But now you have choices in all of this - so what is your choice now? I ask that question in the context of what value you place on your serenity.

Detachment -- with or without love, for survival, whatever -- from a person, an alcoholic, addict...is very different than detachment from our own feelings.

That said, in my experience, there are two types of detachment -- physical and emotional. Both are in the context of the alcoholic/addict.

Now, if you are talking about detachment from our own feelings, whether the catalyst is the alcoholic/addict and something they did, said, whatever -- that's something different. Different context, different perspective, and for some, perhaps a different "solution" so to speak. Perfect example of what to talk to your sponsor about.

For many...detachment...in any way, shape, or form...is not natural.

It can be counter-intuitive to everything that a person has been doing, thinking, feeling, and how they have been acting, reacting, and behaving, for quite some time.

Bo wrote:

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For many...detachment...in any way, shape, or form...is not natural.

It can be counter-intuitive to everything that a person has been doing, thinking, feeling, and how they have been acting, reacting, and behaving, for quite some time.

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 Bo, this is an incredibly true statement! Thank you for pointing this out!

Recently, I have begun to dig into the "Why's" of myself. Why I choose some behaviors over others... what is/are the driving force(s) behind my actions... why I repeat some behaviors/actions over and over.

That has lead me to some information about people who are considered "Empaths." I have found that even though my mind tries to fight it, deep down to my core being, I have many Empathic traits that also fight to be heard/seen. So many times, healthy detachment can be difficult for me.

Just another reason why I still cling to the Program and MIP, even though I am no longer married to my qualifier and no longer live among the "crazy" of Addiction. I need to understand Me... Al-Anon helps me to stay focused on Me, and helps me to not only find healthy responses and behaviors, but to maintain them...so that I can honor myself - no matter with whom I am dealing with.

I am certainly a Work in Progress!