The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
That question causes me to investigate the condition of my mind, body, spirit and emotions and to fix any condition within my power. I don't and won't blame because doing so can and might relieve me of the responsibility to change the thing I can. If someone else is involved I will include them in my process of awareness and choices and decisions on how I think I might change it. Time takes Time. "Don't React ... Respond".
The voices of suggestion and guidance from my elder sponsors I keep near at hand such as "offer mercy" which is so polar opposite in every way the acronym of EGO...Easing God Out.
Can I treat others as HP treats me?
This program has changed me how others are affected by me. This post and subject is the realm of the Serenity Prayer.
I think it's the same question alcoholics have to ask of themselves. "At what point am I tired of living in this chaos, and willing to make substantial changes to improve my life?" Sometimes things have to get pretty desperate before we take action. Some folks prefer the way of chaos. Chaos at least distracts us from our own painful inner emotions. But sometimes the outer chaos becomes so painful that the total burden is something we realize we should no longer have to bear. It took me longer than I wish it had before I made the important changes.
Oh my goodness, Betty is right - you are not alone.
Rather selfishly your post has helped me today - just there, top of the list I see you asking the question I'm asking myself. I am truly sorry that you are in this place though.
That question you raise of putting up with stuff that one wouldn't put up with from a stranger helped me a lot in the past and I'm grateful for the reminder. I'm practising boundaries and they are getting stronger but I'm sad about cutting things out of my life that I care about, and boy would I love a relationship I could trust!
For me I think that my key is going to be about going easy on myself... I find it difficult to accept that I don't have to make quite this much effort and alway imagine that just around the corner there will be a point where I've done enough... what if I give up at just the moment when change is arriving? (and btw there be unicorns in these here hills as well!! ) I am also fearful of the hard time I imagining giving myself for taking so long to make a break for it. If life turns out to be good in that void of what is coming next I can hear myself messing it up by asking why on earth didn't I act earlier?!!! Finding ways to turn those thoughts around feels really important for me today.
(((Serenity))) - I am sorry that you've got pain....I so agree - you are not alone! I certainly have taken breaks from people, places and things when I am uncertain what lessons might be in store for me. I too lean into the Serenity Prayer, simply because I learned in Al-Anon that I am powerless over other people, places and things! Before recovery, I was very black and white with my thoughts and actions. What I practice today is holding onto HOPE (Hold On, Pain Ends) and considering what I can change, which is me.
I am a huge fan of the Bless Them, Change Me mantra when I am troubled by the actions/words of family. I also try to establish consistent boundaries, meaning family members do not get a 'pass' on what I consider acceptable/unacceptable. Detaching from others and considering my boundaries has been a huge source of comfort when working on relationships with those I love and call family.
Be gentle with you and as with all things, this too shall pass! (((Hugs)))
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
I am sorry you are struggling/hurting. Sending you support!
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"The wolf that thrives, is the one you feed." - Cherokee legend
"Hello, sun in my face. Hello you who made the morning and spread it over the fields... Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness." Mary Oliver
For me...and I am not in AA...but for me, my unhealthy thinking, actions, behavior, my accepting unacceptable behavior...all of that...for me...enough...truly enough, absolutely, positively enough...was...MY ROCK BOTTOM.
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Bo
Keep coming back...
God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...
sweetie, it's the same it's always been. I say "enough!" when I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. Al-anon told me I did NOT have to be a victim anymore, it's up to me to volunteer at this point.
I "take care of myself" in the best possible way by using the 12 steps...
Particularly "cleaning house steps" whenever a resentment comes up ( not just for resentment w alcoholics!) A thorough inventory will show me how to STOP playing the part I'm playing, which is the true cause for my suffering. Blaming it on others only keeps me in dark delusion.
with family trials, I trust Higher Power just wants all of me, kind of a test of my faith and love and true attachment (First things First.) By inventory and journaling, I see how I get myself hooked, my precise thoughts and actions that create the confusing delusions.
I feel much more free by letting go of my fearful, clinging attachment to my crazy dysfunctional family... letting go of the painful, unfinished business since childhood....looking to them as though they have some magical powers to deliver, lol
The al-anon message for me has been constant, "move on and get a life." My dreams are gradually being fulfilled today and I can see God only created "opportunities" for me to clear away the wreckage of the past...
It's been an answer to my sincerest prayer, "Give me peace peace peace.... joy joy joy... freedom freedom freedom..."
(suggestion: pray for the highest and the best because that is what Higher Power wants to give you!)
-- Edited by 2HP on Thursday 2nd of May 2019 12:06:03 PM
I like this thread, and I concur with most of the other responses...
We tend to choose a different path for ourselves - on anything - when we are truly 'sick and tired of being sick and tired'. In my experience, these chosen changes are when this situation is ongoing, as opposed to us just having a particularly bad moment.
So when is enough... enough?
I would say that it is somewhat similar to what (I hear) that many A's do, when they finally choose sobriety....
When the idea of life without this particular relationship is less stressful than the idea of life with this relationship.
Hugs, Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Thank you everyone, this has given me a lot to think about and really chewing on what is the healthiest response for me in this situation.
I know from past history recent enough that it caused me pause that I tolerate a lot more than I should and then become the one who is unreasonable when having to shout NO. I don't like reaching that point. The good news is I see it faster .. the not so good news it still takes me a long time to get to that point. Working on having stronger boundaries, stronger boundaries means I will come not allow that in my circle and I can see it acknowledge it and reaffirm that boundary without it getting to the point of shouting NO.
Relationships are built on mutual forgiveness, acceptance, respect and love, for me this is truth for all relationships, specifically those that are closet. When one person refuses to hear the statement "no" it is a problem. When it's family it is so much easier to ignore that red flag and blow it off as a oh that's just how they are when the reality is I would call anyone else out on that and be very clear that I said no. I rationalize that I'm making a big deal out of nothing or it's me .. no .. it's not just me .. it is a big deal because someone who is suppose to love me is not listening when I say no and it's not just me they aren't listening too. This is how I allow myself to be disrespected and in turn I disrespect myself.
It's just confusing especially given my struggle with relationships in general. I don't mean just romantic ones I mean friendships, parents, and so on.
S :)
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
(((Serenity))) This is soooo much to chew on! I remember when I went thru it and I know that at times I still do yet not as often and not as rigidly. Does that make sense??
My understanding became molded by lessons on attitudes and perceptions and graces (could I be wrong and could I be right...and then what?) I learned self control, taking and adding time to my recovery endeavors and allowing others in the fellowship to input my thoughts, feelings and actions just as you are doing here. I allowed myself to be changeable and to be okay with change no matter from what position or direction it came.
Like you are doing here I learned to consider inputs and be willing to change in me what could be changed. Your title to this post captured my experiences and imagination because it defines me today and I am fortunate because of it.
When is enough, enough? That depends on so much today, now and how patient I am willing to be and how open minded.
I totally hear you Jerry. I understand where you are coming from however I don't think you are hearing me. Let me explain it this way. We are on a date .. you come in to kiss me and I tell you no and you choose not to hear me and kiss me anyways .. what gives you the right to ignore the statement no. Why is this different if I say and the 3rd party involved has said no I'm not interested in seeing you however you make plans to "drop in" anyways? You haven't been told "no" once it's 6x now. My perception is because you are ignoring my statement basically this has turned onto a verbal assault of manipulation. There's no JADE there's no anger after 3x .. now I'm angry. Now im required to rationalize and explain myself that's my perception. Because a choice to ignore my wishes and that of a 3rd party has been made. I don't think I'm being ridged or unbending.. I do feel disrespected .. and not heard. I wouldn't allow a stranger into my space so why would you have the right because you are family?? No. It's a very simple statement and no acknowledgment has been made about saying "no" to begin with. At what point do I get to say that's enough because I'm over it. :$ As iam stated and this gave me pause since this is specifically someone who doesn't believe they have done anything wrong that they have the right because they are family to just do an emotional drive by because it suits them. It's all about them.
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Faith minus vulnerability and mystery equals extremism. If you've got all the answers, then don't call what you do "faith". - Brene Brown
"Whatever truth you own doesn't own you" - Gary John Bishop
I love what 2HP said...when I am...sick and tired of being sick and tired!!!
In the context of a relationship -- for me, it's always been, the straw that broke the camels back! When I've had enough of me ACCEPTING UNACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR. However, as my sponsor always said -- when we discussed what was going on in the relationship, he would say -- how's that working for you? Then in our discussion, we would get to a point and he would say, are you a victim or are you a volunteer? I've found inside the rooms of alanon, there are a lot of people who think they are victims, but in reality, they are really volunteers.
Pain is inevitable...but suffering is optional!!!
__________________
Bo
Keep coming back...
God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...
Oh and I love how you are looking at yourself, Serenity! and the ties to your childhood because that is where I realized I was not a victim. I had only carried my baggage with me... attracting relationships according to beliefs I developed in childhood.
I cannot emphasize enough. Do not short yourself on a goldmine of continuous inventory work, otherwise life is a waste. Resist fellowship members or even sponsors who give you simple answers, who fail to point YOU to work the 12 steps for yourself. those who do so are merely building up your dependency on them (ego.) when they disappear from your life ( through death, for example) you will have established firm footing and true guidance through Spirit, through the use of our spiritual program.
There are many methods of doing inventory work, the goal is simply to question and investigate personal beliefs. A suggestion given to me in the rooms of adult children - write out a list of your resentments with this partner....
Flip the page and then write out your list of resentments with your parents. see if there is any similarity. When I saw this list, indeed I stopped blaming my alcoholic husband.
The great realization is I have the power to change old beliefs no longer serving me! I can amend what I had attracted in the first place. But first I have to see it with my own eyes through investigation. Before doing this work (took a few years) I continued to attract the same type of partner, the same situations again and again.
Al-anon invited me to put myself at the top of my amends list, I am thankful for that although it was difficult to forgive myself in the beginning. I had to let go of that too! I couldnt know what I could not yet know.
When I decided I deserved respect, I let it begin with me FIRST.
first, I had to stop disrespecting myself! all the subtle ways I did not take good, nurturing care for myself (not self-obsession but pure care of Higher Power.) I stopped blaming, put down my weapons as it were... and accepted that I alone choose the people who are surrounding me. When I myself held belief I wasn't worth much - I invited abusive relationships.
When I stopped believing that (byliving the 12 steps which included conscious contact with Spirit)... my self-esteem and self worth as a child of Spirit is being recovered, one day at a time.
This is"how" I teach others how to treat me, about who I am (and who they are too.) By experiencing it for myself, it cannot be read or intellectually perceieved, it must be experienced (11th step.)
One thing I have learned. It takes about 2 years for others to actually perceive a real change in another. During that time, whenever I felt disrespected, I did not react, I did not scream and demand respect, that is no longer the way. I placed the blame squarely on me and my past beliefs and quietly walked away to get with Spirit again, into my quiet place to recover my true identity in an instant. I've even done this at work with disrespectful customers. "Excuse me for a minute." and walk away.
Higher Power always smiles when I come "home"
Al-anon is not about changing anyone but me. Al-anon is about taking responsibility! When I convince myself I am a victim, I am telling myself a lie, and delaying my own spiritual progress.
Keep at it my friend, I am rooting for you!
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 3rd of May 2019 11:10:08 AM
-- Edited by 2HP on Friday 3rd of May 2019 11:19:50 AM
Awesome 2HP and the rest of our fellowship who has stopped by with their ESH to input this subject. The recovery question what is my part in it(?) is looking for a response. I have to acknowledge that others are not and were not in the same place as I was and needed consideration within my process of change which would take time. If I had anything it was time.
We are about progress and not perfection. Keep on keeping on Serenity. (((((hugs)))))
Serenity - I feel you are doing some insightful work into what you can and will tolerate.
I think you've hit the nail on the head... you tend to let things slide...to not "rock the boat," expecting some modicum of respectful behavior from this other person. From your example, I see someone who can't be allowed any leeway. They are the proverbial person who, when you give an inch, they see it as an invitation to take a mile!!
I think you already know you have had enough. I think you may be holding onto some expectations towards this person that they can't possibly meet... perhaps ever.
As 2HP said, keep working on you about this. I believe you will get there and be stronger for it!!
Peace, my friend!
__________________
"The wolf that thrives, is the one you feed." - Cherokee legend
"Hello, sun in my face. Hello you who made the morning and spread it over the fields... Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness." Mary Oliver
(((Serenity))) - I love what 2HP says about how the inventory helps us 'see our own patterns' that may no longer serve us well. I too (just wrote about this in another thread) attract entirely different people and respond more healthy than before I chose recovery for me. When I arrived, I really wanted to change my A(s). When it was suggested instead that I work on me, I resisted as I didn't believe I had issues (beyond all those I blamed on the disease and the diseased). What I have since discovered by sticking with what is suggested is no matter where I go, there I am!!!
I work hard to be consistent with my boundaries. What I've found is the messaging sometimes does need to be different. Each human I am interacting with has their own filter and lens and while NO and YES are complete sentences, that doesn't always mean it's heard the first, second, third, etc. time.
There is one loved one who is impatient, persistent and needy! So - I have added a few words without J-A-D-E - No Means No. Yes Means Yes. Maybe means I am processing. If you pressure me when processing, the Maybe will become a No fast. It took a bit for this to stick, but it is working well for me now. I may have to change it later as we all change and as my boys mature, many things are getting easier.
When I am troubled and pause to process and recognize that my feelings are more about past unresolved issues vs. present day reality, I will always talk it out with another. I am better able today to accept that we aren't the only ones with baggage - so are those we are interacting with. We can't change another or their baggage, but we can change us and drop the past through this program, the steps, etc.
I too applaud you for bringing this forward to talk it out. Speaking only for myself, I really don't like to hold onto anger or resentments, and I really get sad when I feel unheard, used, manipulated, etc. Today, I am willing to do whatever is necessary to let go of 'that' so I can return to my happy, peaceful, serene middle of the boat place! Keep processing, keep sharing and the answers will come - they always do! (((Hugs)))
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
) I am also fearful of the hard time I imagining giving myself for taking so long to make a break for it. If life turns out to be good in that void of what is coming next I can hear myself messing it up by asking why on earth didn't I act earlier?!!! Finding ways to turn those thoughts around feels really important for me today.