The material presented
here is not Al-Anon Conference Approved Literature. It is a method
to exchange
information, ideas, feelings, problems and solutions on a personal
level.
So the 23 year year marriage has had bumps over the years. Marriage counseling in the past that did help. Now over the past 2-3 years things have really gotten rocky. Over the last 5 years is when alcohol by husband started to really increase, and that started a lot of his selfish behavior and lack of awareness of me, not listening and communicating with me. I was never really able to stand up to him about things until last year when I was able to finally take care of me (I have been caregiver to many many people). So now I am starting to change, take care of me, and not feeling helpless. I have been reaching out for help with Alanon and abuse hotlines to discuss things (his is emotional abuse). I finally realized that if he was physically abusing me I would never take it I would report it, leave--so why was I taking this type of emotional abuse/neglect. So now I am standing up and making a point to say (when he's sober) that I didn't;t appreciate how he stated something or did not like the anger of the blow up, etc. He actually brought up counseling (which he actually threatened to walk out if I brought up in the past). I just started with my own therapist who said that I should meet with marriage counselors to interview them first to see if they are a good fit and also let them know that there is some abuse and alcohol issues involved.
But I guess I want to know others experience with counseling with a functioning alcoholic who is in denial. It seems like with our discussions he is starting to have some awareness/acknowledgement that his behavior, aggression is not warranted. I don't know if I can blame it on the alcohol or not--but the alcohol is a huge issue in the marriage so I have to address it, as well as the communication and attitudes. Grant it I hear the 3Cs slogan in my head. And I am realistic that discussing the alcohol may piss him off. I feel physically safe, he has never threatened or attempted to hurt me. Will a good counselor be able to help manage the issues about the blow ups, and neglect and awareness to my needs where alcohol is involved with a person who is in denial? Did I make sense?
good to hear you taking care of yourself and realising your abilities.
I did the same thought pattern as you describe - isn't it funny how our boundaries work? If my husband had been physical towards me I know exactly what my reaction would be but emotional pain... somehow that felt as if it could be tolerated and yet I'm finding that the harm emotional abuse caused is really difficult to ditch. The best medicine, for me, has been to do things that I enjoy, that enhance my life and my self worth. Thankfully, I am now a lot less worried about what others think of me!
I tried marriage counselling with my husband when he was drinking. I found it traumatising! I think couples counselling is tough at the best of times. The advise that you've been given to interview prospective counsellors sounds good and I wish that I had found someone who understood alcoholism better. Our one hour sessions became painful finger pointing exercises full of lies and frustration. Eventually I told the counsellor that the sessions were not helpful to me and I refused them. Finally, a backbone!!!! Instead I continue to concentrate on learning to focus on myself and my own life.
Although I still do it I've decided that it is best for me if I take alcohol out of any conversation or even any of my thought patterns. I try to concentrate on my response to behaviour and how it makes me feel. If I feel good, all is well. If I feel bad, perhaps I need to set a boundary. I am inclined to be the first to make excuses ("oh, its the drink") and therefore end up forgiving behaviour that I honestly would run a mile from in a sober person - how perverse is that!!!!
By coincidence, my husband is currently trying to get me to go back to couples counselling because he wants to "sort things out between us". However I have decided not to do this while he is drinking. Perhaps a joint session with someone who has the right experience could raise awareness. Perhaps not. That part would be out of my control.
I guess the best thing is to listen to what feels most right for us as individuals, and to know that if something isn't working or seems to be doing more damage than good, it is ok to change our minds and to not feel guilty about it. (((((((hugs)))))))
Dancer - good to see you! We've never done marriage counseling so I've got no ESH. I will say that we tried family counseling, and it was very much like what Milkwood described - painful. I can't say for sure why, but do know that I was one of four who wanted to be there. The other 3 were active in the disease at the time, and it was quite insane.
What I did learn from it was how very, very different we all see things. Setting aside the disease for just a moment, I learned in these sessions that YOU statements put the receiver on the defense before I even get to my issue and I statements are far more productive.
I wish you and your spouse well in your efforts! Keep coming back.
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
Dancer, glad you are reaching out for info. Years ago I did marriage counseling, even with a CASAC, and my A just wasn't able to tolerate it . So that was useless. But now being actively involved with Alanon for a numberof years, my A and I are seeing a new CASAC, and it is dramatically different and helpful. It is painful as all heck, and it is the only time I bring up A's addictions (plural), but we are better able to talk. I also will not tolerate certain things any longer and it was the therapist's idea to say what I will no longer accept. I think it's a matter of finding the right fit with the professional. Having someone trained in addiction I believe is very important . If you see someone and don't like them, try again. Because, where is the marriage going? I can't tell you my A and I are definitely staying together, although that's what I prefer. We have 27 years together. It is a lot to throw away, Lyne
Hi Dancer.... Some say that couples counseling when one is an active alcoholic is a futile effort..... If you are committed to the concept, I think it can still be beneficial as long as you are not unknowingly 'feeding his disease' (of manipulation).
it was strongly suggested to me (by my wise old sponsor), that it is ultra important that any marriage counselor is well trained in addictions.... If not, "standard" marriage counseling sessions can often be manipulated by your AH's disease (and desire for nothing to change), and a well-meaning counselor can often play right along. I had some direct experience with this as well, and felt it helped things a bit, when I was able to have a few minutes with the counselor, prior to our first session, where I was able to raise the issue, and let them know that alcohol was a huge factor...
Hugs,
Tom
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"He is either gonna drink, or he won't.... what are YOU gonna do?"
"What you think of me is none of my business"
"If you knew the answer to what you are worrying about, would it REALLY change anything?"
Dancer, it sounds like you are doing a lot to take care of yourself! I went through a situation that sounds similar to yours, although my husband (now ex) was a covert drinker and Xanax user so through much of the most difficult times I did not understand how much his drinking and drug use affected his behavior and our relationship. We saw several different marriage counselors over the last several years of our marriage. Because I wasnt aware of the role alcohol was playing, I didnt try to find counselors with expertise with addiction. I think that is an excellent idea.
In my situation, we first saw a female counselor who was skilled and, from my point of view, effective. But there came a point where she started honing in on ex-as use of alcohol and drugs and at that point, my ex (himself an academic psychologist) said he didnt have confidence in her, she wasnt the right fit, and she was picking on him. The subject of a short therapeutic separation had come up, because I was so exhausted and wrung out and confused by my Exs stuff. (With the clarity of time, in hindsight I realized that those alcoholic behaviors of defensiveness and accusing and dramatic contrition and denial and gaslighting had me in a total emotional turmoil.) I saw no point in continuing with a marriage counselor he didnt want to see and insisted wasnt credible. So we eventually got a referral to a male marriage counselor. We didnt see him for long, maybe 4 sessions, when I realized that I was such a confused, emotional mess overwhelmed, exhausted, upset, confused that I really did need a break, from counseling and from my Ex. I stopped the counseling and asked for a two-week separation.
Ironically, my saying I needed a 2week period apart so I could collect myself led to such turmoil. With the help of my individual counselor, and thinking a lot about the queries that first marriage counselor had frequently posed about Exs drinking and drug use, I started to understand how many of the problematic behaviors were all parts of alcoholism.... lying, secretiveness, belligerence, checking out, total disinterest in me and our daughter, weird gaslighting, not remembering conversations and constantly accusing me of making things up... just a little distance (and therapy) helped me understand how so much abnormal and emotionally abusive behavior had become normal. And trying to deal with it in marriage counseling as if we were two healthy adults left me questioning myself, confused, and feeling like I didnt even know which way was up.
Suffice it to say that a small break allowed me the distance to realize that from my point of view, there was no point in trying to work on our marriage and/or keep counseling together unless he would 1) stop drinking, 2) go with me to a counselor to talk about his drinking, or 3) go on his own to talk to someone about his drinking. His response was an indignant NO, he would not do any of those. His drinking was not the problem, it was all my over-reacting. That led to a longer separation that led to a divorce.
Also ironically, my ex is in rehab at this very moment. Good, sad, and not my problem any more.
All of this is to second what others have said... I think its hard to make progress in marriage counseling if the reality of one partners drinking isnt on the table for discussion, and if the counselor isnt skilled in addressing the issues it adds in a relationship.
I really do applaud your awareness and understanding of how abusive these behaviors are.
As a former behavioral health/family counselor employed within a large in/out alcohol/drug rehab my style was to address all pro/con issues that affected the family negatively. We addressed without fear and my group style was like "team" work. Everyone in the program could openly express their perceptions as long as it was done in an open, caring manner without threat of harm. I was the only one that was allowed to be threatened and at times I was even including death and then since I sat in the main chair it was known and passed on that I would and could demonstrate how sanity responded in insane situations.
I had a "walk the talk" attitude and personality without being unjust. I used every tool available to use to initiate sane recovery bar none. I was known to walk the talk without being unloving. "Do it with love" and so at times the alcoholic went to jail with love and the victims continued on with their lives with love too. Our recovery was a justice style which all participants had to practice and adhere to or there were consequences.
We had all sorts of positive support including medical, judicial, legal, other social model programs their church and such. On several occasions my life was threatened by anyone including parent and or child mostly teenagers. The goal was to continue on with the therapy even though disruptions occurred and/or more necessary consequences and solutions were needed. I learned a lot even as the person held to highest responsibility (I had leeway) mainly because as a therapist I was qualified to sit in the clients chair also.
I am life educated regarding behavioral health conditions being born and raised into those conditions and later on creating many other conditions myself...as the program says..."we are not saints".
Of course you can talk about alcohol (ism) (ic), it is what you know about, your experience, your malady. Kick the door off the room of secrets and let the light shine in and hear the voices tell it like it really is. Tell your doctor you want a fresh prescription of "courage" pills and tell your counselor you will be at the next appointment with goals in recovery.
Even your counselor has life and counseling needs. I have had counselors in the past cancel my appointment because they wanted to use the time with me. I didn't get to charge them and then at future appointments I understood we were always on the same page.
When the alcoholic/addict resists it is most often about fear; theirs. They can grow thru pain as much as we have... Pat them on the back and whisper, "Oh you can handle this...I have".
Keep your boundaries out front and loud and never hesitate to use them.
Hi Dancer,
I went for relationship counselling with my partner a while ago. I have to say I didn't find it all that helpful. It was just frustrating really as my partner refused to open up, and the lies and manipulation continued. Maybe it would have been different if the counselor was trained/experienced in addiction, definitely something I'd look for if I ever tried it again.
I've since been for counselling just for myself and that was a very different experience. It was hard work with a lot of soul searching, but I felt I got a lot out of it.
I wish you all the best whatever you decide to do.
My ex-AH and I went to four different counselors over the years. All of them were good solid people, but only one of them said that she would not see us as a couple (specifically him) unless he was also actively in a recovery program. The others had taken a course on addiction or alcoholism and thought they knew what they were dealing with. I see in retrospect that they had no idea. But at the time I was so inexperienced that I trusted them. When he said things like, "Oh, it's no problem, I'll just stop drinking if it bothers her so much," they'd say, "Great, thanks, that's very cooperative. What topic would you like to work on next?" Thinking the problem would just be solved just like that. Then when he got drunk again, he'd say, about me, "She's just got a paranoid side, I was not drunk at all. You ought to figure out why she's so hung up on alcohol." And the counselor would say, "Mattie, why do you think you have a fear of him drinking even when he isn't?" When the counselor believes all the lies of the alcoholic, believe me, you get nowhere. I think the main thing that counseling did was to assure me that I had tried everything.
My AH actually agreed to go to counseling tonight for the first time. My first thought was, finally!
But after thinking about it more tonight, Im actually thinking its the worst idea ever. Im just picturing it being like all our conversations at home. Honey, you have a problem. Its effecting our marriage. Its effecting you. You pass out on the couch every night by seven. I never see you without a drink in your hand. You need to stopp drinking ! AH, I dont have a drinking problem.
Just continuous circles.
Hes not ready to admit hes an A. Not even close. I dont think I could manage the circus of counseling. I will just go on my own. Am at that point that I need help. I dont like the person Im becoming.
I hope you get some peace.
Welcome to MIP Afton - glad you found us and glad that you joined right in. Please keep coming back - you are not alone!
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Practice the PAUSE...Pause before judging. Pause before assuming. Pause before accusing. Pause whenever you are about to react harshly and you will avoid doing and saying things you will later regret. ~~~~ Lori Deschene
It has long been my dream that my AH would attend counseling with me. But I will likely walk on the moon before that happens. Afton, your post could have come right out of my mouth. I wish you all the best in the counseling. I wish I could get that far. (I've gone myself but AH doesn't believe it's possible or necessary to talk to other people.)
If a couple is going to marriage counseling...and there is a 2000 lb., pink elephant in the room...and it's constantly pooping...then...you are not supposed to talk about it?
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Bo
Keep coming back...
God, grant me the serenity...to accept the PEOPLE I cannot change...the courage to change the ONE I can...and the wisdom to know it's ME...
My ESH - so take what you want and leave the rest...
My EX and I attended marriage counseling for 10 YEARS! Yes, you read that right, 10 years. Nothing ever changed. This was BEFORE I knew about his addictions. The lying and manipulating got so bad at one point, our counselor finally told me, "I will gladly continue to see you, but not your husband." Some time after that, I began to have suspicions of drug use by my husband - that were confirmed a year later. I am pretty sure our counselor never knew, but the BEHAVIORS alone are what nixed the marriage counseling.
To this day, my Ex will tell you that our counselor never said that, even though I had written proof. Crazy!
I was helped greatly by the interactions with the therapist... our marriage? not so much!
Wishing you Peace today.
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"The wolf that thrives, is the one you feed." - Cherokee legend
"Hello, sun in my face. Hello you who made the morning and spread it over the fields... Watch, now, how I start the day in happiness, in kindness." Mary Oliver
I have no idea why it never occurred to me to check out this forum before. EVERYTHING that EVERYONE is saying rings a big, huge, clanging bell in my head!
I just have a layman's opinion on the topic (I'm not a counselor) but it would seem to me if alcohol is a big problem and you can't talk about alcohol, there doesn't seem to be a lot of point in talking at all. That was always the problem with me. I'd try to talk to my wife about her drinking but she always threw it right back in my fact. But from reading everything everyone has gone through....whewwwweeeee! I already feel a lot more sane than I did just a few hours ago! That's the scariest thing...when someone is drinking they say such insane things, and the lying, defensiveness, belligerence, disinterest or hyper-interest, gaslighting, not remembering conversations and constantly accusing me of making things up....it really makes YOU feel as if you're the nutty one!
For a couple of years now Ive tried to talk my AH into marriage counseling. Every few months, wed get into a discussion and Id bring it up. I thought - if he could just hear me...really HEAR me, things would change. His drinking would stop and our marriage would flourish. We love each other so very much and if he could just see how his drinking was damaging our relationship, he would stop and life would suddenly be perfect again. But over the last year, Ive come to realize that the change I want to see in him cant happen until the drinking stops. He *cant* hear me right now - the alcohol twists everything and then muffles it and adding in a third party isnt going to fix that. In fact, it would only complicate it even more. And so Ive stopped bringing it up. Instead Im considering going to individual counseling. Just for me. Just so that I have support in getting *my* head straight. At this point, I think counseling for each of us as individuals would have to happen before I would ever consider marriage counseling. The alcoholism is just too big of a barrier for marriage counseling to overcome.
Twinkles, individual counseling really helped me. My Ex-A told me all of the time that the issues were my fault. And I was tying myself in knots trying to make sense of a whole lot that was NEVER GONNA MAKE SENSE. counseling gave me a safe place to sort things out. It was tremendoutlying validating.
