Aloha Carla and good for you trying to grow in understanding.  Several of us are "doubles" meaning we are also alcoholic and someone affected by someone else's drinking.  From the alcoholic side of me the lying was generated by fear that I was bad or less than as the affects of alcohol affected my thinking, feelings and behaviors.  After all I use to judge others about their drinking and/or using which led me to the belief that I was being judged the same.  I tried to lie good yet the only person I came to convince was myself until I got into recovery and faced the facts about myself and was able to accept myself completely.  I remember long ago before recovery, being asked about as statement I made in a group, "Is that true or is that a lie".  That was humiliating and I got very angry mostly because I had failed to convince the audience.  

Your husband pretty well might know the extent of what he does and why.  A lot of lying is Ego defense and my ego needed to be defended and remodeled often.  I even change the spelling of my name to Gerry with a G and explaining daily that the G was because I was soooo special.  I had a great sponsor ask me "So what does the G stand for?   God?"  I brought it back to the given Jerry and came to accept myself for what and who I actually am.

The program of AA recovery might do your husband great...pray he finds the door or another AA fellow to lead him there.    Keep coming back.   ((((hugs)))) 

I'd like to add to my previous post -- one problem that I always felt was neglected, early on in my recovery, was -- the alcoholic does something, we hear detach, let go, how important is it, boundaries, focus on YOU, and so on.

However, what about when there is a price, a consequence, or a ramification to what the alcoholic does...and when you are the recipient to, of, from what they did.

Lying is a perfect example. Infidelity is another. Sure, it's easy to sit here and say that lying is part and parcel with alcoholism. Infidelity is not. Tell me it's common, and I say BS. Does it happen, sure. But common. OK, no need to get hung up on semantics. That said, so it's part of alcoholism, and yes, that's easy to say. It's even easier to sit here and say it's not the person, it's the disease. Or, oh, they would have never lied had it not been for the fact they were drunk. It's not the person, its the bottle...and so on and so on and so on. While it might be true that lying is part of the disease of alcoholism, in whatever form and fashion you like, that doesn't mean it has to be acceptable. Whether there is a price or not. If one person says "how important is it" and simply wants to let it go, so be it. If another person says it's unacceptable, so be it. There are no musts in alanon. LOL.

I've been in the rooms for almost a quarter of a century. I get it. I live it. However, when we look at the first three steps -- acceptance, powerless, surrender, letting go...and we can apply that to everything in our lives...does that make it OK so to speak? We can do that with lying. We can do that with infidelity. Does that mean ignore? Forgive? Forget? If we apply everything we can to an action -- lying, infidelity -- does that make it OK? Acceptable? To what end. How extreme do you go? At a certain point, in my experience, this starts to float toward accepting unacceptable behavior. The program can be used by people -- any way they want -- who look to justify accepting unacceptable behavior. That is not what alanon is for of course, but if someone wanted to use it that way, even without realizing it, or subconsciously, they could. They have. I've seen it. That is up to them.

I am very supportive and live the steps. However, when it comes to being directly the damaged party -- if the act is such that there is damage -- sitting idly by and saying, I am powerless, I am letting go, I am focused on me, I accept that I can't do anything about the alcoholic doing ____________ (fill in the blank), and so forth. Be careful what goes in the blank. Whatever it may be -- detachment, letting go, acceptance, powerlessness -- might not always be a good thing.

All the best.

-- Edited by Bo on Thursday 4th of October 2018 07:12:43 AM

Carla, great question. Some say boundaries are a bit of an "advanced topic" so to speak. It is very common for people to say they are establishing and implementing boundaries -- when in reality they are simply ultimatums, efforts to control, manipulations, etc.

That said -- first, I developed my boundaries with my sponsor. Together, face to face. We actually put a pen to paper for this. Second, I verbalized them to my wife, for the first time -- I call this established and stated my boundaries -- after an incident that would have triggered the boundary, BUT, when she was sober. The next day, later that day/night, whenever. This was important. Third, I knew going into this, well knew, without question, that my wife wouldn't just be mad, she would go absolutely nuts and possibly assault me -- when I verbalized my boundary and the word "drinking" or "drunk" came up...so...first, I didn't say it. Yes, I cheated, I cut corners. I kind of beat around the bush. I cheated myself!!! I said I was afraid. That was a lie. I said I was worried. That was a lie. I said I can't -- and that too was a lie. Of course I could...I just didn't want to!!!

In all likelihood -- the alcoholic will NOT honor your boundaries. They are not supposed to! Remember, the boundary is not there for them to honor!!! It is not there to change the other person. However, you have zero chance...if the alcoholic doesn't know the boundary. If you don't communicate (yes, at the right time, the appropriate time) it -- you are just taking action, walking out the door, leaving, whatever it is, with no explanation (prior, not at the time). And, I don't mean explanation in the traditional sense. I mean informative. Notice. Communicative. So -- if that's not there -- is that disrespectful? Condescending? Rude? Could be. I always, always, always loved my wife. There were times where I didn't like who she was being, what she was doing, how she was behaving. However, regardless of that -- me, and this is about me -- I always had respect, self-respect, dignity, and class. I always had compassion. I wasn't going to ignore her, walk out, take some sort of action, etc., without the communication piece having taken place. However, she had to be sober. I would not even attempt to communicate this when she was drinking. Even if she had one drink!

Boundaries are tough for beginners/newcomers. Even seasoned people miss the point, don't get it right, make mistakes, etc. That's OK. It's an advanced topic, because the prerequisites are such that you have to have complete and total acceptance. You have to have gotten past the anger and resentment. You have to have surrendered and let go of wanting to control, fix, cure, and so on. Sure, I've seen people do boundaries without all of this, but the probability of success is much, much lower, in my experience. Yes, I guess one could walk away and walk away angry per se. LOL. That's a band-aid, not recovery. But in alanon, we have baby steps. Whatever works for you.

My sponsor told me I had to say it. SAY WHAT YOU MEAN, MEAN WHAT YOU SAY, AND DON'T SAY IT MEAN!!! Remember, if the alcoholic gets mad at you...YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT. You cannot let the potential of him getting mad at you sway or dictate your actions, behavior, etc., especially when it entails YOU doing something for YOU, that is right for YOU, that is best for YOU, healthy for YOU. Remember, a boundary is not about you controlling a situation. It is about you taking action in a specific situation. If__________...then I will__________ is the one minute manager format, LOL. Some consider a boundary a rule. If it's a rule for YOU then OK. But if the rule impacts others ex post facto, without warning, sans the trigger so to speak -- then no, it's not a boundary in my opinion. Topic for another time.

So, the next time she was drunk, I'd be polite and if appropriate "remind" her as to the prior conversation we had. If not, I'd just take action, but at least the next day I could say "We had discussed this prior, and I didn't say anything at all last night because__________ and I'd fill in the blank. I wouldn't say anything if she was belligerent. If she assaulted me. If she threw something at me. If she was incoherent. Then I just took action. I took the high road. Always. Take the low road -- it's a cop out. Denial, excuses, justification, and I mean this to everyone here politely -- blah, blah, blah, LOL. Not a finger point to anyone, just my feelings, my experience, my perspective.

This is absolutely something to talk about, work on, and do...with your sponsor.